New to Smash, not Fighting Games -- Edge Guarding & Recovery Tactics

[Sarah_Fong]

Accidentally posted this in the Wii U section first (will delete)

Hey guys!

This is my first post here -- I tried Reddit first but have had no luck getting feedback!

I've been a big fan of fighting games for a long time but have almost exclusively played SF Third Strike and Super/Ultra SF 4 (with some Blazblue and P4A mixed in, but not my cup of tea).

My fiance encouraged us to pick up Smash Bros and I am having SO much fun and am glad to be indoctrinated into the community. I've grown a real soft spot for Mega Man, Lucario, and Zero Suit -- as well as Inkling but the tech seems WAY above my experience level so I save her for lame CPU battles.

I've found that translating some basic tenants of fighting games has helped me a lot, but I seem to have a big issue with linking combos off the edge of the maps. Jumping is just...hard lol. My timing is way off and almost all of my deaths in versus matches are due to my ****ty recovery timing. I can reliably combat and get kills using the aforementioned experience of fighting games (lights/heavys/blocking/grabs etc) but almost ALL of my deaths are my own doing, even in competitive/against other players. I know that may sound weird to seasoned veterans but as someone trying to reprogram my brain from one fighting game to another, the floaty jumps and recoveries have been exceedingly difficult.

I have been watching a LOT of tournament footage in my down time at work and it looks like a lot of people operate with strategies that have them pummel their opponent off the edge and then launch their side-B or some sort of projectile OR if they're using a melee character they try and target them to a side and then smash them mid air and do a recovery back on the platform. I understand the complexity from a viewing perspective but actually trying to achieve this in any formal practice is SO hard.

Street fighter had training mode where you could practice specific combos against a CPU who was programmed to do an activity (jumping continuously to try and aim for a hadoken/projectile, for example) but unfortunately SSB seems to have a more basic training with customizations that I am not sure how to utilize fully.

So TL;DR : How do you guys suggest I use training mode to better improve my "edge game" and jump recovery because it is a glaring weakness of mine. My fiance isn't much better than me so asking him for mentorship isn't an option, which is always how I improved my Street Fighter skills -- asking friends who had been playing for decades to pummel the **** out of me and tell me what I'm doing wrong, so I can course correct lol.

Also any other tips in terms of great starter guides for lingo and practice would be super appreciated -- but mostly I'll just be perusing the forum for that stuff, but any supplemental material is always welcome.

I love this game and want to actually get decent and this is my first real smash brothers title I've ever played so pardon my ignorance! It feels so good to care about a competitive title again.

Thanks!

- Sarah

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Well, this probably seems obvious, but try fighting CPUs at *low difficulty levels* with somewhat high stock counts, and just practice going offstage as often as possible when you knock them off. Even when it doesn't seem worth it, just go for something. It will also help you learn to push your character closer and closer to their limit as far as distance they can still get back from. I have to ask though, since you're coming from traditional fighters, are you using tap jump (jumping with the left stick) like you would in Street Fighter etc.? Also, what characters have you been using the most?

EDIT: Get on Youtube and watch IzawSmash's beginner and intermediate videos for Smash Ultimate. I'll return shortly with a link.

EDIT 2: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4SzCzeORbSRRI72fLpdCCDI-SZIwqFyJ

EDIT 3: Oh yeah, welcome aboard! haha

 

[chipndip]

You just gotta get a feel for movement in the game. Movement is character-specific to a degree, so it's hard to say what you specifically need to look for. Some dudes are floaty and some dudes fall like rocks...or potted plants. Go into training mode and sort of see the types of moves you can do off-stage before you've fallen too far to get back on stage. That'll let you know how long you can be off-stage, and what types of moves you can use to edge guard off-stage.

 

[ASAP_Smash]

So if you want a real answer you need do what’s called labbing your character. There are knock-downs in this game just like street fighter. However, how you initiate them and follow through with them is character dependent. So typically if do a sequence that would force a knock down you get to follow up with a 50/50 situation called a “tech-chase”. This is when your opponent gets to do a wake up option like rolling away or something and you need to make a guess as to which option they’re going to do and try to make a read with your character.

For example; ganondorf’s side-b is a command grab that automatically forces a knock down. After he lands his side-b, It’s up to ganondorf to try and tech-chase his opponent for huge damage. Now ganondorf has a pretty sweet down smash that covers 4/5 options that his opponent can make. This is what’s called a “50/50” where the character makes the right option and is safe, or makes the wrong option and gets punished hard. So what does this have to do with going off-stage to intercept your opponent’s recovery?

Basically you can look at knocking someone off-stage as the same as an on-stage knock-down. And what you can learn by labbing your character in the training room is figuring out how they force knock-downs on-stage, how they punish a knock downs with a 50/50 tech-chase and how that same set-up applies off-stage.

I would suggest going into the training room with your main and labbing percent windows that certain moves force a knock-down, and figure out what is their best tool for tech-chasing after. Once you figure that out you can basically do the same set-up close to ledge, and you’ll most likely get the same punishes off-stage!

Keep in mind that some characters might have better tools on-stage than off-stage. I’d suggest looking up the definition of “ledge-trapping” and “two-frameing” for characters that rarely go off-stage to punish a recovery.

 

[Qualk]

What characters do you play?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

This link takes you to the Smash Dictionary.

Link: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/

If you google smashcords and click the Ultimate tab, you can find the Discord servers for your characters. There you can ask character specific things like edgeguarding and more. The ZSS Discord should have docs that cover a lot of miscellaneous data that is equally important; stuff like FAF, IASA, autocancel, endlag (recovery frames), etc. These terms should be covered in the Smash Dictionary link above.

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This thread explains stick sensitivity. You only need to read the first post.

Link: https://smashboards.com/threads/all-about-stick-sensitivity.466696/#post-22873504

This video goes over DI and talks about some of the more detailed info. This video will help you live longer vs attacks rather than if you were to get hit and not do anything.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS6JJZA6VpM

This other video by them is also related.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-ge7VRRWUo

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As for what you can accomplish in training mode, here is what I got.

If you turn invincibility on and then equip a Star Man, you can view the hurtbox for a character.

Green stands for invincibility. The character is immune to all attacks but enemy characters will still suffer minor hitstun if they attack the invincible character. The same goes for the invincible character when they get hit (I may be wrong on this part or the Star Man has slightly different properties).

Blue stands for intangibility. This works similar to invincibility, the only difference is this will affect only a portion of the character's model and that attacks will pass through these areas as if they were not there.

Knowing this, you can view the invincibility frames for the cast, take a screenshot with it, then add them to your notes for references. If you have a Micro SD Card, you can copy the photos to it and transfer them to your notes. If you do not have a Micro SD Card, then you can upload the photos to Twitter and then put them in your notes.

Another use for the Star Man "exploit", is that you can find out which attacks are disjointed. Simply perform different moves as a character and if the move is not highlighted green, that means it is a disjoint; this means that you cannot challenge that move with another attack, it's just a hitbox.

NOTE 1: Make sure you use frame by frame before doing this, as some moves get their invincibility frame 1, and it can be hard to spot them since the highlights come and go pretty fast.

NOTE 2: Super Armor, Tough Guy, and hitboxes cannot be shown in-game unless you were to mod it. Eventually someone may make a mod pack that shows these things (one was made for Smash 4). Until then you will have to refer to the docs scattered throughout Smashcords by visiting different servers and learning character specific information. Or you could mod the game yourself so you can have access to this information.

We have 3 notable Smash Modders: Kurogane Hammer, Mizumi, and Ruben. These guys occasionally share hitbox data for characters that interest them, among other information that the masses would be unaware. Kurogane Hammer even has his own website where he documents frame data and lot of miscellaneous information. It's going to be awhile before he finishes it for Ultimate (if he ever finishes it).

Here is the Smash Ultimate calculator.

Link: https://rubendal.github.io/SSBU-Calculator/

This tools allows you to easily calculate how much damage an attack will do on shield (in S4 attacks did more damage on shield so that may not have changed), shield stun (works the same as hitstun but for shields), and other neat stuff. Shields may still have 50 health from S4. Also when you hold a shield, your shield loses HP when you hold it and there is a formula online for that and I forgot where it was.

I said all of that to say that if you were planning on shield breaking someone, you would have to calculate: how much damage your attacks does on shield, how much shield health they have left, and the shield stun duration to get a full shield break. You can also do similar stuff to figure out if attacks chain into each other in Smash, or as we call it, true combo.

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MORE stuff about training mode.

• The combo counter isn't true
• CPU Shuffling stands for DI/SDI. As of 2.0.1 it now works when the CPU is set to "Stop". I do not know how accurate this is since I have not really messed with it myself nor have I a video from Beefy Smash Doods, My Smash Corner, or another popular Smash Ultimate source talk about it.
• Stale moves "ON" replicates how all matches are played. In short, moves stale the more you use them. This video goes into more detail. Do note that the max number a move can be queued may have changed in Ultimate. Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wis_25jQeew&index=54&t=0s&list=PL6BPj6LYE4vogxSf6CeYZjTGtMG_dG3yZ
• If you want to practice edgeguarding in training mode. I suggest hitting the CPU offstage with different attacks and watch how they recover. You can even raise the percent and pause the game to send them to different parts of the stage that you like. Once you find the position that you want the opponent in, you can replicate this scenario multiple times and practice it. This can only take you so far, as having another player can make setting this up easier.
• There is a hidden mechanic called "Rage". At 50%, 100%, and 150%, your character's attacks will deal increased knockback. The value goes up when you hit these percent numbers. Turning Stale moves "ON", enables Rage.

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Miscellaneous Tech and videos: I'm just going to be dumping links.

• 2 Frames Punish Window: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uQn19zvWpo

One thing that the video leaves out is that when you get 2-framed, your character gains their double jump back.

• Here are my Smash Ultimate notes. I want you to scroll to General section and read up on that. There I've compliled all the obscure tech that I've found useful. From there, you can just check that SSBU_TECH hastag weekly or monthly to see if anything new has popped up.

Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dE4rN6UfSS60xSCdRCFNMZFt69ffsBWOXAyQ72RWmSQ/edit

There is a discord called Button Smash Bros which you can find with a google search. There, they have a bot that gathers all the hashtags. They even made hashtags for the roster (there is also a 2nd set of hashtags made by a different player who has a smaller following so you may run into those too).

• You may also be able to find obscure tech by scouring the different character boards on this website and the competitive forums. Jot down what you need.

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I hope this information is useful and you decide to stick with us in Ultimate. If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask.

Good luck.

 

[AbsyntheMinded]

I feel your pain, having also come from SF4, the change is hard and daunting. I've dabbled in the previous smash titles with friends who would then crush me, but this is the first one i've actually really put some time into and it can be super frustrating. First off i found using training mode to be a completely different experience. SF training mode was all about getting your fingers trained to link combos flawlessly, whereas i find i use smash training mode to simply learn the massive amount of advanced movement techniques required to actually play the game at a decent level, practicing combos, while still important, is less of a priority because if your movement stinks you won't be pulling off the combos anyway as a lot of them depend on advanced movement techniques

One of the easiest way to work on your recovery is to head into training mode. first measure how far up your up B goes in units, Then measure how far up it goes when you up B then hold right or left. This will generally give you some more diagonal movement but means it won't go up as high as a straight up B. It's key to know when to use which one to recover. a great video illustrating this is Jtails B-reversal video. Now turn the camera settings in training mode to zoomed out so you can see the whole stage top to bottom, then proceed to run/jump off the stage over and over again and see how low you can drop before your up B no longer allows you to get back, then figure out how far/low you can go when you use your second jump and up B. try to vary your jumps off the stage so you get a good feel for how to recover from any distance/height. Do not forget that you can use more than 1 attack in the air (coming from SF this is always been difficult for me to keep in mind) you can side B, then up B to increase your recovery options for a lot of characters. if your character has a great side B recovery, figure out how far this travels in units as well so you know how far you can recover horizontally and vertically. To practice this you can get the computer to smash you off the stage a good horizontal distance then recover with side B and up B

as for edge guarding off stage, once you get a good feel for your recovery options and they become second nature, you can start practicing chasing people off stage. In my experience most people will almost always try to recover very high or very low given a choice. so in a lot of case you won't be jumping off the stage, but more running off the stage, dropping a bit then using Nair, Fair or whatever your best chase move is for edge guarding. How far you can chase and how many aerials you can string together is totally dependent on just how good your character's recovery is. If their side B recovery is ****, you won't be chasing your opponent too far off stage horizontally unless you're totally cool losing your own stock in the process.

My main is Wario (who i play incredibly poorly) and his recovery horizontally with bike is extremely good, however if bike is on cooldown his recovery becomes a lot worse and he can't chase that far off stage, he also has a good aerial game so chasing can be very beneficial.

In order to really become good at edge guarding you have to become really good at recovering without even really paying attention to it, that's the only way to become really comfortable off stage. in training mode you have to be able to recover from almost anywhere in your character's reach without paying attention to what you're doing, it has to be second nature, because if you're edge guarding off stage you'll be focused on what your opponent is doing, so whatever you do has to be automatic/muscle memory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZR0eoJlv4A&t=331s - B Reversal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdNoSa63NjI&t=962s - how to actually recover

people above mentioned izaw's tutorials and videos and I agree with them wholeheartedly, he has great videos and explanations on how to practice specific stuff that will really up your game.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Edit: When you are baiting get-up attacksx you can even shimmy in and out of their range to whiff punish them.

Another good tip for edgeguarding is when your opponent grabs the ledge, it's best to stand right outside of their get-up attack range. Each character has a different range so this is another thing you'll have to memorize or take note of with pictures.

What this allows you to do is to bait impatient players, You'll also be in range to punish neutral get-up, rolls, and ledge drop double jump aerials. Just stand there and be patient as Smashers usually like to press buttons. If they decide to hold onto the ledge, ZSS can use Down Smash into a confirm, among other character-specific stuff yoy may able to perform.

Another thing I forgot to add the other day is that you should view character's hurtboxes when they grab the ledge. Some characters have hurtboxes that poke above the stage, so it's good to know them.

 

[Cuddly Cat]

"...as someone trying to reprogram my brain from one fighting game to another, the floaty jumps and recoveries have been exceedingly difficult."

I recommend using Mario. He's got basically every kind of move, each with it's own twist on it, and he can walljump (pressing the stick away from a wall you're touching) so recovering with him isn't too difficult. Plus, his airspeed, aerial acceleration and friction are pretty average so it'll be easier to simply move around.

I also recommend finding which recovery moves work best for you, and to find a character with a tether or an additional, horizontal recovery move for the time being. The Mii Fighters are great for this since you can customize them and find which kinds of moves work best.

 

[Xquirtle]

Youtube Izaw's training videos. They are hands down the best information that you can get as a beginner. He really understands how to answer the questions that you don't even know that you have. Also, he has an entire video on how / what to grind in training mode

My personal summary: To start, you need to understand what all of the character's are capable of doing off stage. You watch lots of pro content so you can get this "skill" through osmosis, a good start. You'll also just need a ton of reps recovering with your characters. Boring bot games are still good for just improving your character control and understand your range etc. When you've got control and you know what your opponents can do to stop you, you can start planning your strategies to get back on stage.

In general:

1. Most people struggle with edge guarding low recoveries. It just takes way more precision find a kill down below the stage than straight out to the side. Its also way riskier to join your opponent in the depths of the off stage and certain characters just can't edge guard low at all. By low recovery, I mean dropping down and under the ledge, then using your tool kit to come up to the ledge from underneath the stage.
2. Save your double jump for as long as possible. It is your best tool in getting back to the stage, and you'll want to avoid any habits of pressing it until absolutely necessary. Even on stage, blowing your double jump can lead into an easy read that hits you off stage, and you die.
3. You can air dodge into the ledge as a mix up
4. Neutral air dodge has way less lag than direction air dodge so you can use it off stage and still survive in many scenarios where a direction air dodge would kill you
5. mix up your getup options (see Izaw video for all of them)