New Sonic advanced technique: the "Instant Spin Dash Jump"

[ItsRainingGravy]

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Spinshot#Spinshot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZXWmnwphyk

While messing around in training mode, I had discovered this technique still exists...but in a much different manner than what people remember. In order to do this new version of the "spinshot", you need to completely disregard every method explained in the two links above. Here's how you do it in this game:

1) To do this technique, you must use Spin Dash (Side B). It can be done with Spin Charge (Down B) I think, but it is infinitely easier to do and much quicker if you use Spin Dash instead.

2) You must use the Spin Dash while running.

3) You must use the attack button to cancel the Spin Dash animation. You cannot use the jump button for this technique.

4) You must press the attack button at a very few specific frames. If you press the attack button too late, you will do a VSDJ (Vertical Spin Dash Jump). If you do it too early, it will not register the input of your attack button. You have to press the attack button before Sonic curls up into a ball. I recommend that you continue to practice this in 1/4th or 1/2th speeds in which you can hold the L-Button to slowly progress through the animation.

5) If done correctly, Sonic will jump diagonally curled up into a ball instead of straight up, and use the momentum of his run to continue to move forward.


Here is the input in simple terms:

Run -> Side Special -> Press Attack at a very specific frame(s) before completely curling up into a ball.


Differences in contrast to Spinshot and other information about this technique:
- You don't use jump to use this technique.
- Likewise, this technique does not take away your double jump.
- Furthermore, you can only preform this technique on the ground.
- This technique has a hitbox unlike Spinshot, and does as much damage as a SDJ (6%).
- Like a SDJ, you can act out of this technique with any aerial besides a Spin Dash or a Spin Charge. This includes jumping (footstooling too), Homing Attack, Spring Jump, Air dodge, double jump, and all of his standard aerial attacks.
- Goes about as fast and as far as a normal SDJ (Spin Dash Jump).

Basically with proper practice and mastery of this technique, you can instantly jump out of your running animation and have a constant hitbox around you that can be used to protect you, help set up combos, surprise opponents, and more. It's a bit difficult to pull off being very frame-specific, but it is extremely useful.


I am dubbing this technique the "Instant Spin Dash Jump", since that is pretty much what it is anyways.

 

[Camalange]

Could you possibly video this? Even if it's just using your phone to film it, I'd like to see this in action.

Also, your title is misleading. We still have the traditional spinshot from both Side-B and Down-B.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

We already have a video on this:

Spoiler: This is what it was

4:24 vs CF.. wtf was that?

I only have 3 matches uploaded so far:
vs マガ

 

[Camalange]

We already have a video on this:

Thank you. It's hard to reference back to these things and I wanted to be sure this is in fact what it was.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Also, your title is misleading. We still have the traditional spinshot from both Side-B and Down-B.

Fixed.

We already have a video on this:

Yes. This is what it looks like.

 

[Camalange]

Thanks for the write-up. The technique has come up before but I don't think anyone has really taken the opportunity to officially address it until now. I'll be sure to include this in my Sonic-Specific techniques, mentioning you and the others who contributed.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Nice find. So how useful would one say this would be in high-level play using Sonic?

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

this can also be pivoted so you can run forward do a pivot Spin jump into a bair. it's basically doing a RAR via spin dashing, and alllows us a faster way to approach with our aerials at not cost due to the fact we retain the ability to double jump

 

[Sonic Orochi]

this can also be pivoted so you can run forward do a pivot Spin jump into a bair. it's basically doing a RAR via spin dashing, and alllows us a faster way to approach with our aerials at not cost due to the fact we retain the ability to double jump

Yeah, but sometimes you'll end up jumping to the opposite direction, depending on the pivot timing.

Add this to the already inherent inconsistency of this tech's timing, and you're better off just going for a normal RAR or even Fair.

 

[Camalange]

I love RAR. I'm so glad it's back(air).

I still need to try out ISDJ and pivot ISDJ… Seems like it has potential.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I love RAR. I'm so glad it's back(air).

I still need to try out ISDJ and pivot ISDJ… Seems like it has potential.

Oh, it has tons of potential.. Getting in an airborne foe's face almost instantly AND with a hitbox to boot?

The only (huge) problem is pulling it off consistently.

 

[Camalange]

Oh, it has tons of potential.. Getting in an airborne foe's face almost instantly AND with a hitbox to boot?

The only (huge) problem is pulling it off consistently.

Yeah, it looks legit. I haven't tested how strict the timing is yet but… Maybe it'll be easier on a GC controller.

It looks like it's worth getting down.

 

[kataridragon]

This is a cool tech. Definitely working this into my game. Just new to get it down....

The more we divulge into these advanced techs with sonic the more I yearn or a normal controler. :/

 

[B.A.M.]

im pretty sure we all discussed that spinshot was still in when we first touched the E3 demo. Im pretty sure this one was touched on as well. Well as long as everyone is in the know. Thanks for writing the write up OP

 

[B.A.M.]

im pretty sure we all discussed that spinshot was still in when we first touched the E3 demo

 

[Chief Chili]

I can only do this at 1/4 speed. You guys are crazy.

Actually after trying it out some more I've managed to do it at normal speed by sliding my thumb quickly from b to a. Cool.

 

[Camalange]

I've actually gotten quite good at this. I got it both times I wanted to use it in match today... 2 for 2 is pretty good, lol.

I mostly just forget about it/don't have situations to use it but the one time it worked puuuurfectly.

EDIT: I should clarify. I was playing a Mario who was using a lot of fireballs from the air, and I just ran and ISDJ'd right under it and hit him. Works well against Wii Fit trying to set up a volleyball as well.

 

[Redline!]

The timing seems extremely strict - I can't even get it consistently at 1/4 time, much less real time. And I can't seem to pull of a "normal" spinshot, either. Am I just Really Bad?

 

[kataridragon]

The timing is just strict on these techs. Spin shot is easier than the jump shot (can we call it that! That is an awesome name!). Timing is key.

Jump Shot FTW!

 

[Camalange]

The timing seems extremely strict - I can't even get it consistently at 1/4 time, much less real time. And I can't seem to pull of a "normal" spinshot, either. Am I just Really Bad?

Do you want the honest answer?

Jokes aside, here's a write-up I did that may help you tackle spishot more easily.

Q: How do I shot spin?
A: You can Spinshot from both Side-B and Down-B. Side-B's can be done both on the ground or in the air, but Down-B's can only be done in the air. Both require you inputting jump or attack at or past a certain point during their charge.

Recommended [only?] input(s):

• Air:

[Hold Side-B] or [Fully Charged Side-B] > [Release B and quickly hit A (Attack) or X/Y (Jump)] *
[Rapid-Fire Down-B] > [Release B and quickly hit A (Attack) or X/Y (Jump] **

• Ground:

* Same
** N/A

TLDR: For Spinshot, I recommend rolling your thumb from B to A. The easiest way to practice is from a fully charged, grounded Side-B. The thumb roll trick works wonders as well for ISDJ.

The timing is just strict on these techs. Spin shot is easier than the jump shot (can we call it that! That is an awesome name!). Timing is key.

Jump Shot FTW!

I think ISDJ is appropriate as it's not really a new move... We have Spinshot because its properties and execution is very different from anything else. This tech is quite literally an instant spin dash jump. It's exactly the same as a spin dash jump... Just done before a spin dash roll even registers.

 

[kataridragon]

Isn't a spin shot an instant jump canceled spin charge? Just saying. So you gotta charge it a little. Meh. Inst everything already there, in the game?

A spin shot should be ijcsc... That's what we should call it now. Lol.

What's in a name I guess. Jump shot sounds cool IMO. It's a better explanation than spin shot.

But whatever sticks.

 

[Redline!]

I can Spinshot pretty reliably now with just a little practice! But ISDJ is still tricky as heck.

 

[Camalange]

Isn't a spin shot an instant jump canceled spin charge? Just saying. So you gotta charge it a little. Meh. Inst everything already there, in the game?

It's not instant, no. ISDJ is instant, hence the name. Spinshot can be done at certain points during the charge of Down-B or Side-B, and out of fully charged Side-B. The fact that it can be done out of both Spin Dash and Spin Charge is a noteworthy point as well.

A spin shot should be ijcsc... That's what we should call it now. Lol.

Instant Jump Canceled Spin Charge? That's not what it is though.

What's in a name I guess. Jump shot sounds cool IMO. It's a better explanation than spin shot.

But whatever sticks.

My qualm with it is that jumpshot sounds too similar to spinshot, and that's only going to cause more confusion. "This tech", again, "is quite literally an instant spin dash jump". Spinshot is its own unique jump.

I can Spinshot pretty reliably now with just a little practice! But ISDJ is still tricky as heck.

ISDJ is definitely more strict than Spinshot. Requires very exact, specific timing. Spinshot is more lenient and can be done a couple different ways.

 

[Redline!]

I gotta say, spinshotting DEFINITELY screws with opponent's heads. Sonic's already got a wide variety of viable movement options, but just playing around with Sonic for a little while makes understanding those options when fighting him fairly straightforward, even if they're still tricky to deal with in-practice.

Stuff like the Spinshot, on the other hand, has a psychological component to it. If your opponent doesn't understand what Sonic is doing, what he can follow the spinshot up with, et cetera, they can be thrown off-balance easily. I spinshot over Ike's side-b or an approach by Little Mac and they don't know what the RULES are.

And that's all in ADDITION to the Spinshot's other excellent qualities, which include the inherent value of being able to mix up your approach, the ability to more naturally land Nairs (especially on 3DS), and its horizontal recovery utility!

 

[Smog Frog]

is this a must learn? because i cant do it for ****

 

[Camalange]

is this a must learn? because i cant do it for ****

Wouldn't say it's a must learn, but it certainly has some great utility.

I don't incorporate as much as I should either. I don't feel confident enough to do it on command. I can do it but... Not every time.

 

[kataridragon]

I agree it's really strict on timing and it isn't always the best option.

 

[Camalange]

I see so much potential for ISDJ.

It's such a fast option that covers a really unique angle really quickly. Mostly as a nice mix-up tool/anti-air, but certainly something that I want to incorporate more.

I was practicing it for a bit and I'd say I get it at least 70% of the time now. It's not too difficult. You just have to continue holding forward, but immediately release B and roll your thumb to A.

It's super quick, which is why the motion from B to A is easiest, I think.

 

[Jords2Good]

Just tested this myself and I actually manage to pull it off. Good thing I found this thread, now I know which buttons to input first instead of doing it blindly.

I can sometimes do it consistently but its gonna be hard trying to do this at tough spots in a match. If I do it alot I'm sure I'll get used to it.

 

[IWinToLose]

I do see a lot of potential for this technique as well. I can do it fairly consistently but often do the more 'vertical' version. The vertical version is useful too (albeit probably a couple frames slower) as you have many mixup options (aerial into homing attack or other specials, spring immediately, aerial into double jump, etc) and it covers a different area than the horizontal version.

One issue I'm having is sometimes you lose your double jump and sometimes you don't. I think this depends on when or if you use an aerial from ISDJ. Also, ISDJ can set up for some rather early kills if you reverse the hop portion and go into Bair (sometimes combos) or even Fair. Finally, it can lead to gimps because it goes much further horizontally off stage than a normal jump and comes out way faster than a normal jump out of SC/SD.

It comes out about as fast as the dash attack and is much safer with combo potential. The only disadvantages are less grounded horizontal hit box, perhaps not as instant out of shield, and more difficult to do.

I found this very useful against characters that like to hop and descend with a projectile that doesn't immediately have a hitbox (Yoshi, I've got your number) and other hoppers in general.

 

[Camalange]

I do see a lot of potential for this technique as well. I can do it fairly consistently but often do the more 'vertical' version. The vertical version is useful too (albeit probably a couple frames slower) as you have many mixup options (aerial into homing attack or other specials, spring immediately, aerial into double jump, etc) and it covers a different area than the horizontal version.

Vertical is really easy to do, considering it's just a faster VSDJ so the timing isn't as strict.

One issue I'm having is sometimes you lose your double jump and sometimes you don't. I think this depends on when or if you use an aerial from ISDJ.

I think it was @ Gregory2590 that brought this up happening to them too. Quite odd.

Also, ISDJ can set up for some rather early kills if you reverse the hop portion and go into Bair (sometimes combos) or even Fair. Finally, it can lead to gimps because it goes much further horizontally off stage than a normal jump and comes out way faster than a normal jump out of SC/SD.

Definitely, that was one of my main interests for the technique. ISDJ > Dair spike possibilities seem really exciting too.

I never intentionally get the reverse ISDJ though. I'm not really sure how I'm getting it sometimes.

It comes out about as fast as the dash attack and is much safer with combo potential. The only disadvantages are less grounded horizontal hit box, perhaps not as instant out of shield, and more difficult to do.

Sounds like way too much work for an OoS option. If it's possible then damn, go for it you tech masochist. Sounds hype.

I found this very useful against characters that like to hop and descend with a projectile that doesn't immediately have a hitbox (Yoshi, I've got your number) and other hoppers in general.

^^^

This was my primary interest. I pulled it off on a Mario back in 3DS version when he was trying to land with fireballs. I was like, okay, this has some serious anti-air/anti-projectile utility. I think this option is what can make ISDJ more than a neat trick and turn it into a really beneficial tool for Sonic.

 

[Gregory2590]

I can vouch for the ISDJ mysteriously eating your second jump. It's probably one of Sm4sh's weird "frame perfect" issues for ATs.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

It's just BSBS activating whenever you guys fastfall a botched ISDJ..

 

[Camalange]

That's what I proposed as well, but I couldn't see how they were inputting it to say for sure. That was the only logical thing I could think of.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I know that because I've done that as well. Then it just clicked: as I was just FFing every accidental VSDJ in order to test the ISDJ faster, I was also inadvertently activating BSBS, which is BS.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

I revisited this on accident, and decided to give it a new name since the old name is gross, and this is unique enough to have its own name. https://youtu.be/Pb4bezJRm70

Full explanation as to how it actually operates in the description of the vid.

 

[Kinetik07]

Cool name, but hop kinda implies it's shorter than a jump(we have "short hop" and "spin dash hop"), ISDJ sounds more appropriate imo because it's essentially an SDJ.

...there's a time limiter on sideB that prevents you from jumping earlier than 16 frames, BUT it can be cancelled through doing an input before doing the jump, so I need to run forward, hit sideB back, then hit forward again while hitting A in a VERY small time frame, not sure how long exactly, but roughly 1-3 frame window to do it.

EDIT: I think you might be making this more complicated than it actually is(I'm really sorry if reversing it twice makes it easier somehow or does something different). The small time frame to hit A and get the momentum preserving SDJ is the same whether or not you reverse it. It's just run > B > A, with good timing on A.

 

[IWinToLose]

You can reverse this hop too in order to connect BAir instead of FAir:

Just run forward, hit back, B->A. You still have your forward momentum but you've reversed your hop IIRC.

Although, I haven't done this technique in awhile so my memory might be a bit fuzzy (haven't been using Sonic lately).

 

[Sonic Orochi]

It's incredibly unreliable though and if you hit them with the SDJ, you'll send them backwards while you're going forward.

Other than using it in order to edgeguard with only the Bair, It's virtually useless.

 

[Kinetik07]

Or if you can pull off a Dair out of reverse-facing forward ISDJ and hit that one frame vulnerability on the ledge sweetspot, that'd be sick. It would have more potential to stage spike people who hug the wall too since you're facing towards the stage. You never know how good people will get with frame perfect techs in the future(i mean, just look at this ridiculousness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgBxvTMG28I), but for now RAR Dair is a good alternative.