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New Mario Matchup Thread!

Kulty

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I think the matches that you showed really bring light to the Mario mains, because due to ZSS nerfs, she might be considered to not be even among Mario's worst MUs anymore. Even though Larry lost, I was still happy to see that and the matchup is not longer as bad as the previous patches. Also, welcome to Smashboards and welcome to the best character boards ever! (just joking, they're better character boards out there when it comes to information, but Mario is still pretty good) XD

Better rediscuss that for sure...
 

Xandercosm

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I changed a couple of the MU's that we agreed were even to "50:50" and I changed a couple of the characters that were patched (Sheik, ZSS, MK) to "50:50" as well. As the meta develops for these patched characters, the MUs may go even more in our favor but for now I'm keeping them even. Tell me your thoughts and if I missed anything.
 

New_Dumal

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I just can't understand a lot of this MU chart.You guys are quite humble with your character...
Ganon 50/50 Mario ? Link ? Lucina ?

Just out of curiosity, who you guys think is the worst Mario MU ?
I'm ok playing against him as MK, and I really avoid playing as Cloud, but does Mario have a BAD MU ?
 

Xeze

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I just can't understand a lot of this MU chart.You guys are quite humble with your character...
Ganon 50/50 Mario ? Link ? Lucina ?

Just out of curiosity, who you guys think is the worst Mario MU ?
I'm ok playing against him as MK, and I really avoid playing as Cloud, but does Mario have a BAD MU ?
This matchup chart is outdated. The point of this thread is to update it with the current state of the meta.

Mario's worst matchup is probably Rosalina. DK and Corrin give him some problems too.
 

Kulty

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Apparently, I became quite curious about what happened at Pound 2016? In Grand Finals, we actually saw Ally and Abadango for the first time instead of the typical trio (Nairo being at 49th, Dabuz failing to make it to top 8 and ZeRo being entirely absent). While I was happy to finally see:4mario:in grand finals for a big national tournament, there was:4mewtwo:. I didn't watched the stream, but was Ally unfamiliar with the matchup? Can this actually be troublesome for Mario?
 

Xeze

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I bet on matchup inexperience on Ally's part. Even though it was a 3-0, it never felt like Ally was overwhelmed by Abadango. I think the MU is even.
 

Kid_Carlton13

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What are your guys take on the :4mario::4metaknight: MU and any tips on how to beat good :4metaknight:players. Thansk again.
 

GwJ

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Why does Mario lose to Rosa? It's frustrating to me that when I play against Mario it feels like a losing matchup for me. I'm playing the MU wrong but I don't know in what way.
 

Wom

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Why does Mario lose to Rosa? It's frustrating to me that when I play against Mario it feels like a losing matchup for me. I'm playing the MU wrong but I don't know in what way.
Mario's downthrow is not very useful against Rosalina while Luma is alive, as Luma can hit Mario before he can get anything out of it.

Mario's backthrow, however, is very good at seperating, and usually killing Luma. Once Luma is dead, I would think the matchup is very much in Mario's favor, but as long as you can avoid getting grabbed then you can wall Mario out.
 

Xandercosm

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Why does Mario lose to Rosa? It's frustrating to me that when I play against Mario it feels like a losing matchup for me. I'm playing the MU wrong but I don't know in what way.
What Wom Wom said as well as the fact that she just plain walls Mario out. I would say it's our worst MU since we rely on getting in and grabbing the opponent. Luma makes it very hard for Mario to do that with his short range. Also, because grabbing is one of our most important strengths, the fact that we can't capitalize off it as much when fighting Rosa is a huge factor. I would say the MU currently is a solid 60:40 in Rosa's favor for all those reasons and more.

If you want to learn how to play the MU, what I can tell you is that you just need to Luma camp. When Mario tries to get in, poke him away. Mario's attacks generally have a hard time getting through Luma so just play keep-away. If you can get him offstage, do it. Once, he's offstage, he pretty much has no options other than to get back in a very linear manner. All you have to do is cover ledge options and you'll get some good extra damage, if not the stock. He's also relatively susceptible to U-air juggling.
 
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DPKdebator

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I would say that Rosalina beats Mario slightly, but good timing and strategy can give Rosalina some problems. If Rosalina launches Luma at Mario and he gets a good-timed cape in, you can deal a lot of damage and a KO at higher percents. It's high risk though, since a miss can cost you a stock. Rosalina can also neutralize Mario's spacing, since she can use her D-special to destroy fireballs. My strategy is to take out Luma first, since a few charged smash attacks can take it out.
 

Sucio Guapo

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Rosaluma is Mario's worst mu for a number of reasons. First, you can't approach with fireball bc she has down b. Second, she outranges you with Luma. Third, her aerials cause an assload of shieldstun, so don't bother trying to punish them with Mario's crappy ground speed. Fourth, if you somehow get something started while she has Luma, Luma can just bust her out of it. Finally, she kills you 150 million x eariler than you kill her due to her stupid set kb up air.
However, like all of Mario's mus, even if it's bad, it's not impossible. Back throw is an excellent way of getting rid of Luma. While her recovery is really good, it does not have a hitbox, so you can try to catch her two frame vulnerability with dash attack, d smash, and d tilt.
 

Sucio Guapo

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So nobody knows how to fight :4metaknight:?????
Out of all of Mario's matchups, THIS is the one I'm most uncertain about. I thought :4metaknight: won this one bc he killed off the top with the uair into upb way earlier than Mario. Then, I realized that Mario outprioritizes and juggles:4metaknight: to hell and back. Adding that to the recent nerfs, I'd say at worst it's even for us now.

In terms of how to play against him, I don't know too many specifics, but as someone who has a pocket MK I can say this:

:4metaknight: is a very reaction based character, classified as a "bait and punish" and a prime example of a "high risk high reward" character. He has very few safe approach options in neutral. However, one of his best is running into shield, because it forces :4metaknight:'s opponent to react. So, the key to playing :4metaknight: is to not give him anything to which to react. I'm not saying to do absolutely nothing; I'm saying play very safe and mythotical.

Or, you can wait until Smash Factor 5 for when Ally (the best Mario in the world) and Leo (the best MK in the world) inevitably play each other. I think that's better.
 

Pazx

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Would anybody here be able to give me some thought on the Mario vs Diddy MU, or link me to past discussions of it? It's one I struggle with personally.
 

Xandercosm

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Would anybody here be able to give me some thought on the Mario vs Diddy MU, or link me to past discussions of it? It's one I struggle with personally.
To me it's a pretty straightforward MU. As Diddy, you want to space Mario out with F-airs and barrage him with bananas. Edge-guard his linear recovery with F-air and B-air but don't get too aggressive. Mario typically wins the aggressive game so be careful and take your time. I really don't have that much experience with the MU but that's what I do know about it. Maybe someone else will have more to add.
 

CGod

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Wow some of these surprised me! Like dk, g&w, ganon and Dr Mario. As for the pikachu I'd put 60-40. Esam says Mario bodies pikachu. Mario's worst my is 45-55! Mario top 5 confirmed?
 

Kulty

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Wow some of these surprised me! Like dk, g&w, ganon and Dr Mario. As for the pikachu I'd put 60-40. Esam says Mario bodies pikachu. Mario's worst my is 45-55! Mario top 5 confirmed?
I wouldn't say he's top 5, but top 10, definitely. Even though characters like Sheik, ZSS and Meta Knight got nerfed, that's doesn't mean it's exactly instant top 5 for Mario. Mario still has to watch out for MUs such as the ones you mention. While they're not as hard as Rosalina (which is considered to be Mario's worst MU), you still have to watch out for them since they can shut down a lot of Mario's tools in neutral. That's why Mario is overrated, but in fact, he's not in my personal opinion. His matchups against certain mid-tiers really do screw him from being top 5.
 

MuddeMaster92

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Does anyone have any tips on the Mario vs Cloud matchup? I'm pretty new to playing against him in general(only played him 4 or 5 times total as of now) It's really hard for me to get in on him because his hitboxes are so disjointed
 
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Sucio Guapo

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Would anybody here be able to give me some thought on the Mario vs Diddy MU, or link me to past discussions of it? It's one I struggle with personally.
Be very careful offstage and around fireballs. If you're really good at spacing fair and stuffing Mario's approach options, some Marios might resort to a less aerial-oriented playstyle (ie more shield grabs, grounded fireballs, tomahawking, etc), which is good for you bc Mario's ground game is awful. Grounded Mario can also help you land banana setups easier, which can lead to kill confirms. To see this at a pro level, watch Ally vs. Zinoto in Michigan. These two go at it very often, and it's a really good showcase of the mu.
 

Pazx

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Be very careful offstage and around fireballs. If you're really good at spacing fair and stuffing Mario's approach options, some Marios might resort to a less aerial-oriented playstyle (ie more shield grabs, grounded fireballs, tomahawking, etc), which is good for you bc Mario's ground game is awful. Grounded Mario can also help you land banana setups easier, which can lead to kill confirms. To see this at a pro level, watch Ally vs. Zinoto in Michigan. These two go at it very often, and it's a really good showcase of the mu.
Thanks for your input! I've quoted your post in the Mario MU thread on the Diddy forums so others can read it, if anybody else would like to chime in that would be greatly appreciated~ http://smashboards.com/threads/diddy-kong-mu-discussion-week-5-mario.435718/

I've watched Zinoto and Ally play so many times and it just never stops looking like a difficult MU. IMO Diddy would rather play against pre-patch Sheik than Mario, based off of my own experience and watching the MU at high level >_>
 

Sucio Guapo

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Thanks for your input! I've quoted your post in the Mario MU thread on the Diddy forums so others can read it, if anybody else would like to chime in that would be greatly appreciated~ http://smashboards.com/threads/diddy-kong-mu-discussion-week-5-mario.435718/

I've watched Zinoto and Ally play so many times and it just never stops looking like a difficult MU. IMO Diddy would rather play against pre-patch Sheik than Mario, based off of my own experience and watching the MU at high level >_>

Np anything to help out :)
 

Sucio Guapo

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Just because of the huge time gap between now and the last matchup chart, I think that the following matchups need to be re-discussed in depth in the future:
Luigi
Sheik
ZSS
MK
Greninja
M2
Bayo
Corrin
 

Airboysteel

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How do I fight against Ness in the Mario MU?
 

Kulty

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Finally on vacation (has been a while since I touched the forums). So we got a new patch out which only affected:4bayonetta: and no one else. That basically means that this patch also benefited Mario due to making this MU a whole lot easier than last time. I don't know about this, but I really feel we should rediscuss the matchups. I also need matchup information since I'm updating my guide soon, so I do need some info. Is this thread dead?
 

Sucio Guapo

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Finally on vacation (has been a while since I touched the forums). So we got a new patch out which only affected:4bayonetta: and no one else. That basically means that this patch also benefited Mario due to making this MU a whole lot easier than last time. I don't know about this, but I really feel we should rediscuss the matchups. I also need matchup information since I'm updating my guide soon, so I do need some info. Is this thread dead?
No one has been responding at all to anything lately except me lol. Bayo was already 50/50 imo but now Mario might win. I already had an agenda of rediscussing certain Mario matchups but this thread is basically dead so we haven't started.
 

Kulty

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Shall we begin then? I can finally gather info after all those months in studies. But I'm back. I'm still not sure whether or not the MU is now in Mario's favor against Bayonetta since the patch just came out a few days ago, so we'll have to see. It might be possible, but we never know...
 

Sucio Guapo

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Shall we begin then? I can finally gather info after all those months in studies. But I'm back. I'm still not sure whether or not the MU is now in Mario's favor against Bayonetta since the patch just came out a few days ago, so we'll have to see. It might be possible, but we never know...
Do it. No one is here.
 

Bigbomb2

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So quick question while I'm poking around, what makes Toon Link more favorable than regular Link? The Mario I face turns me into confetti if he gets a grab off. I personally feel it's 55:45 Mario's favor for Link and 50/50 for Tink. Just curious on some of these, as I dabbled in Mario at one point.
 

Xandercosm

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Shall we begin then? I can finally gather info after all those months in studies. But I'm back. I'm still not sure whether or not the MU is now in Mario's favor against Bayonetta since the patch just came out a few days ago, so we'll have to see. It might be possible, but we never know...
To be honest, the Smashboards character boards are all super dead. Discord is the new discussion format at this point. I think it would be a smarter idea to prompt character discussion on the Mario Discord and then update this thread accordingly.
 

CGod

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Rosa beats Mario but how bad is it? Do I need to pick up a secondary such as :4metaknight:?
 

Zonderion

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No, you do not need to pick up a secondary. It's maybe a 55:45 in Rosa's favor if you play the MU right. Not a big deal.
Being a Rosalina main, the match up is 60:40 in Rosalina's favor. Rosalina's walls Mario out very easily and she is a difficult character to combo, 1. Because she's light and 2. Luma.

I would suggest either MK or Pikachu as a secondary against Rosalina.

I'm more interested in the Mario vs Pikachu and Metaknight MUs. Those are a couple of Rosalina's worst, and I just picked up Mario as a secondary.

Any tips for those?
 
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Xandercosm

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Being a Rosalina main, the match up is 60:40 in Rosalina's favor. Rosalina's walls Mario out very easily and she is a difficult character to combo, 1. Because she's light and 2. Luma.

I would suggest either MK or Pikachu as a secondary against Rosalina.
I used to think this, however, it has become a very unpopular opinion at this point. Rosalina has dropped quite a bit and Mario players (as well as other characters that struggled with Rosa before) have learned how to adapt to her. Mario's B-air is good at slipping in between Rosa and Luma to separate them. Mario can also easily get rid of Luma by simply back-throwing after a grab. Once she has lost Luma, Mario can destroy her with his incredible combo game and she dies super early to Mario's Smashes. I feel like, at this point the MU is 55:45 in Rosa's favor or 50:50. Not a tough MU.

Also, to add to that, Mario is solo viable and does not need a secondary.
 
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Zonderion

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I used to think this, however, it has become a very unpopular opinion at this point. Rosalina has dropped quite a bit and Mario players (as well as other characters that struggled with Rosa before) have learned how to adapt to her. Mario's B-air is good at slipping in between Rosa and Luma to separate them. Mario can also easily get rid of Luma by simply back-throwing after a grab. Once she has lost Luma, Mario can destroy her with his incredible combo game and she dies super early to Mario's Smashes. I feel like, at this point the MU is 55:45 in Rosa's favor or 50:50. Not a tough MU.

Also, to add to that, Mario is solo viable and does not need a secondary.

I agree that without Luma it is closer to 45:55 in Rosalina's favor, but a good Rosalina isn't going to make it easy to get rid of Luma. Mario can easily be edge guarded and suffers greatly against being juggled. We understand the Mario MU better as well. The Rosalina boards agree that we have the advantage in this MU.

While you may think Mario doesn't need a secondary, it is pretty naive to tell other people not to pick secondaries. Just because you do well with only Mario, doesn't mean everyone will. Other people may need that difference in play style to over come their adversaries.
 
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Xandercosm

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I agree that without Luma it is closer to 45:55 in Rosalina's favor, but a good Rosalina isn't going to make it easy to get rid of Luma. Mario can easily be edge guarded and suffers greatly against being juggled. We understand the Mario MU better as well. The Rosalina boards agree that we have the advantage in this MU.

While you may think Mario doesn't need a secondary, it is pretty naive to tell other people not to pick secondaries. Just because you do well with only Mario, doesn't mean everyone will. Other people may need that difference in play style to over come their adversaries.
I wasn't trying to offend you by saying that Mario doesn't need a secondary. He doesn't. Period. So I was just stating a fact.

I will add that I do not really care what the Rosalinas agree on. I am a Mario main and have played him since the game was released. I have played the Rosa MU a million times and it seems easier every time. Even top Mario players like Zenyou and Dark Wizzy consider the MU 50:50 or 55:45 at worst. You seem like you haven't fought a good Mario because he lays down immense pressure on Rosa's defensive stronghold. Mario is quite good at squeezing in between them and separating the two. Once he has disposed of luma, it's easily 60:40 in Mario's favor until it comes back. For that period of time, Rosa becomes a giant walking hitbox with super weak moves that is light enough to be killed at 90% by a Mario U-smash.

You can have your opinion on the MU. However, it is incredibly outdated and I would urge you to research more recent opinions on the MU as well as recent high level sets between the two.

You should also check out the Mario Discord. The community there would have quite a bit to say about this.
 
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Zonderion

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I wasn't trying to offend you by saying that Mario doesn't need a secondary. He doesn't. Period. So I was just stating a fact.

I will add that I do not really care what the Rosalinas agree on. I am a Mario main and have played him since the game was released. I have played the Rosa MU a million times and it seems easier every time. Even top Mario players like Zenyou and Dark Wizzy consider the MU 50:50 or 55:45 at worst. You seem like you haven't fought a good Mario because he lays down immense pressure on Rosa's defensive stronghold. Mario is quite good at squeezing in between them and separating the two. Once he has disposed of luma, it's easily 60:40 in Mario's favor until it comes back. For that period of time, Rosa becomes a giant walking hitbox with super weak moves that is light enough to be killed at 90% by a Mario U-smash.

You can have your opinion on the MU. However, it is incredibly outdated and I would urge you to research more recent opinions on the MU as well as recent high level sets between the two.

You should also check out the Mario Discord. The community there would have quite a bit to say about this.
So I guess you've changed your mind in the last month or so?

I guess my view is outdated. And it's likely I haven't played a good Mario. I've not had one pressure me as you say they can.

I'm not offended about Mario not needing secondaries. I don't believe secondaries are based on the characters, as much as I believe they are based on the person playing the characters. Most people, myself included, can't play a character to perfection in every MU to not need a secondary. That's just my opinion.

Regardless, I'm not here to discuss Rosalina's MU, but more of the Pikachu and MK MU. Do you have any advice for those?
 
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Xandercosm

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So I guess you've changed your mind in the last month or so?

I guess my view is outdated. And it's likely I haven't played a good Mario. I've not had one pressure me as you say they can.

I'm not offended about Mario not needing secondaries. I don't believe secondaries are based on the characters, as much as I believe they are based on the person playing the characters. Most people, myself included, can't play a character to perfection in every MU to not need a secondary. That's just my opinion.

Regardless, I'm not here to discuss Rosalina's MU, but more of the Pikachu and MK MU. Do you have any advice for those?
I just want to say that I didn't mean to come off harsh. Sorry about that. Also, what I said a couple months ago was a bit outdated even then. At that time, I was paying slightly less attention to the meta than usual.

As for the Pikachu MU, it's a pretty solid 60:40 in Mario's favor. As an example, ESAM himself said that he needed a secondary just for that MU. Quick Attack, one of the main/only moves that keeps Pikachu relevant, is utterly destroyed by Mario's U-smash, since it gets caught in it as Pikachu tries to move around the stage with it, netting Mario early KOs. This means that Pikachu pretty much can't use it offensively in the MU which is huge. Another thing is that Cape destroys Quick Attack, as well, by reflecting it which can net super early kills, forcing Pikachu to be even more careful with using it.

TL:DR Pikachu's Quick Attack (the most important move he has) gets trashed by Mario. Also, Pikachu is pretty easy to combo and dies early.

In the case of MK, I have less experience with the MU, but I will tell you what I know. Currently, I would judge it at 55:45 to 60:40 in Mario's favor. MK has no combo breakers, relatively weak air speed (too weak to escape Mario's combos, at least), fast falling speed (which makes him even better combo fodder), very light weight, and no longer has a quick kill combo that can make Mario play careful. So, pretty much, you have a character that Mario can feast on with his combos and that he can kill super early. What MK has over Mario is amazing edge-guarding and a top 3 recovery.

So, overall I would say it's maybe a strong 55:45 in Mario's favor or a weak 60:40 in Mario's favor.

I hope this helps you! :)
 
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