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New Ledgegrabbing Mechanic Confirmed

pitthekit

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(If we were all robots and had frame perfect reactions)if our opponent is off stage and trying to recover won't we always win as we can cover the ledge and stage perfectly? If they are on the ledge they can only really attack or air dodge on to the stage so won't we always win?
 

DaDavid

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(If we were all robots and had frame perfect reactions)if our opponent is off stage and trying to recover won't we always win as we can cover the ledge and stage perfectly? If they are on the ledge they can only really attack or air dodge on to the stage so won't we always win?
Its' one of those things that's yet to be seen, but yeah, a player with the up-to-snuff reaction times will still have that advantage.
 

1MachGO

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Those asking if you can edgehog still imo you can.

You just grab the ledge and if the other player tries to grab the ledge while you still have your invincibility frames on then the player will fall and die. But if you grab the ledge and your invincibility frames go out then the other player grabs the ledge you will then be pushed off the ledge.
Yes, but the timing will be incredibly strict. Consider characters who have hangtime after their up-b (such as Marth). Will there be enough invincibility frames to avoid both the hitboxes AND grab priority from a character in helpless fall? Given that the # of invincibility frames are now a variable... it is highly likely that edge hogging will become very situational.
 

pitthekit

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Yes, but the timing will be incredibly strict. Consider characters who have hangtime after their up-b (such as Marth). Will there be enough invincibility frames to avoid both the hitboxes AND grab priority from a character in helpless fall? Given that the # of invincibility frames are now a variable... it is highly likely that edge hogging will become very situational.
Hmm drop down the ledge and do a rising uair?
... Omg if pits up special still sweet spots the ledge like in brawl....
 

NamelessHunter

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Jigglypuff is the real winner here. She can pound float above the ledge while waiting for the opponent to reach the ledge, and then just fall into it to perform easy ledge guards. She will be the best edgehogger in the game, both offensive and defensive.
 

SKM_NeoN

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Those asking if you can edgehog still imo you can.

You just grab the ledge and if the other player tries to grab the ledge while you still have your invincibility frames on then the player will fall and die. But if you grab the ledge and your invincibility frames go out then the other player grabs the ledge you will then be pushed off the ledge.
It's not clear whether invincibility frames will prevent the recovering player from taking the ledge or not. We need to see this in action before a proper analysis can be made.
 

Zonderion

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It's not clear whether invincibility frames will prevent the recovering player from taking the ledge or not. We need to see this in action before a proper analysis can be made.
True, but why would it not? They're invincible from everything else, why would they not be invincible from a simple "Hey, move over! Its my turn on the ledge!" type move?
 

SKM_NeoN

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I have no earthly idea who would get priority of the ledge and when, I'm just trying to keep this discussion open to all possibilities. What you say could absolutely be true, then again Sakurai could be trying to phase out edgehogging altogether. It's impossible to say one way or the other.
 

ryuu seika

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Jigglypuff is the real winner here. She can pound float above the ledge while waiting for the opponent to reach the ledge, and then just fall into it to perform easy ledge guards. She will be the best edgehogger in the game, both offensive and defensive.
Ike's Up B, or any similar move, recovering high would deal with that, no? If she drops, she starts using up her invincibility time while you hang briefly and, if she doesn't, you spike her and grab the ledge for a quick KO.
 

Zonderion

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Ike's Up B, or any similar move, recovering high would deal with that, no? If she drops, she starts using up her invincibility time while you hang briefly and, if she doesn't, you spike her and grab the ledge for a quick KO.
We also don't know the amount of time they get invincibility frames. Is the "air" timer reset every time you touch the ground/ledge? How much does the damage/air time combined together give you in invincibility frames? Maybe a high damaged JigglyPuff with lots of air time can sustain enough invincibility frames to last through long moves like Ike's.

IDK, IDK.
 

Zonderion

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If the air timer isn't reset with each touchdown and ledge grab then what's the point of this mechanic?
I'm just wondering what is the max amount of invincibility frames and can it be achieved with characters that don't have multiple jumps. It would of course be reset upon death.

I mean, more than likely, you are correct that it does reset with a ledge grab or touchdown. I'm just pondering the other possibilities.

Edit: If it cannot be achieved by characters who don't have multiple jumps, then this mechanic could be over powered for characters with multiple jumps.

If you send MK or Pit or whoever else with multi jump to the edge of the screen, but not to death, they can make it back. Then to give them the longest invincibility frames when they come back to the ledge because of their air time, is quite impressive to say the least.
 
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DJVictor

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yeah but also, it doesn't mean that the edge guarder can't trump the recovering player to.

Think about it: if link is recovering and mario wants to edge guard but he is to slow, the tables are turned against mario because he got trumped


BUT THE SAME FOR LINK: if mario grabs the edge half a second before link, the link gets trumped.

At least that should be like that.

The air time and damage effect the invincibility time but not the priority on the edge

What do you al think?
 

Jerm

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yeah but also, it doesn't mean that the edge guarder can't trump the recovering player to.

Think about it: if link is recovering and mario wants to edge guard but he is to slow, the tables are turned against mario because he got trumped


BUT THE SAME FOR LINK: if mario grabs the edge half a second before link, the link gets trumped.

At least that should be like that.

The air time and damage effect the invincibility time but not the priority on the edge

What do you al think?
I completely agree. Air time and damage effect how long you have invincibility frames, but once those invincibility frames are up then your opponent will be able to steal the ledge from you.
Im going to use Olimar as an example if this mechanic does end up applying to tether recovery. If Im Olimar and im just below the ledge and my opponent used up his invincibility I should be able to use my Up B and it will prioritize over my opponent and I should be able to grab the ledge. However, if my opponent has high damage/ is kirby jiggly or some other floaty character they could time it just right and will have invincibility when Im trying to recover therefore they have priority over my recovery. Edgehogging will still be around it just needs to be much more precise since you cant hang on the ledge anymore to edgehog without invincibility frames.
 

lordvaati

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I have no earthly idea who would get priority of the ledge and when, I'm just trying to keep this discussion open to all possibilities. What you say could absolutely be true, then again Sakurai could be trying to phase out edgehogging altogether. It's impossible to say one way or the other.
Probably a refinement. Don't think it's a flat-out kill since it was a bonus achievement in Melee and all.

But yeah, we do need to see this in action.
 

DaDavid

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I completely agree. Air time and damage effect how long you have invincibility frames, but once those invincibility frames are up then your opponent will be able to steal the ledge from you.
Im going to use Olimar as an example if this mechanic does end up applying to tether recovery. If Im Olimar and im just below the ledge and my opponent used up his invincibility I should be able to use my Up B and it will prioritize over my opponent and I should be able to grab the ledge. However, if my opponent has high damage/ is kirby jiggly or some other floaty character they could time it just right and will have invincibility when Im trying to recover therefore they have priority over my recovery. Edgehogging will still be around it just needs to be much more precise since you cant hang on the ledge anymore to edgehog without invincibility frames.
This is basically what I' thinking it'll end up working like. I doubt edge-hogging is gone all together via some sort of "priority if from the bottom" system or something like that. It's probably just based on the change to the invincibility on the ledge. If that's the case, I can't see this change being anything but a good thing. Edge-hogging is a legit tactic and shouldn't be nerfed to death, but I'm all for it becoming more difficult to time correctly.

Obviously some characters will have an advantage at it, but I don't really see anything being game-breaking.
 

Mike_Tha_Hero

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No such thing as cheap, only bad or lazy players that cant adapt.
Wrong, play some more fighting games and you'll see that "cheap" is very easy to come by.

Asking others to adapt to your exploitative playstyle simply because it's popular doesn't change the fact that it's cheap.
 

Vkrm

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Wrong, play some more fighting games and you'll see that "cheap" is very easy to come by.

Asking others to adapt to your exploitative playstyle simply because it's popular doesn't change the fact that it's cheap.
Do you consider Ike cheap? Why or why not?
 

pitthekit

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Do you consider Ike cheap? Why or why not?
Ike is not cheap: all his attacks are slow. Except for jab and some other moves.

Now given the chaos of 4 player basic brawl on a small stage.Ike becomes very annoying with wifi lag and that evil f smash of his lol.
 

DaDavid

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Yeah I'm not sure what the point of that Ike question was haha. Even if FFA where he has more targets, if you keep your eyes on him he's nada.
 

Vkrm

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Yeah I'm not sure what the point of that Ike question was haha. Even if FFA where he has more targets, if you keep your eyes on him he's nada.
Wanted to see what his criteria is for things to be considered cheap. A lot of people consider Ike cheap, but he's really not. He's completely beatable even though he has certain strengths. Many consider edgehogging cheap even despite it being beatable. In a competitive context nothing should ever be considered cheap. When it come to strategies they're either effective or not. We need everybody employing the dirtiest most dastardly tricks the game has to offer. That's the only way we find counters.
 

DaDavid

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Wanted to see what his criteria is for things to be considered cheap. A lot of people consider Ike cheap, but he's really not. He's completely beatable even though he has certain strengths. Many consider edgehogging cheap even despite it being beatable. In a competitive context nothing should ever be considered cheap. When it come to strategies they're either effective or not. We need everybody employing the dirtiest most dastardly tricks the game has to offer. That's the only way we find counters.
I suppose I see the logic in that. I personally wouldn't consider edgehogging cheap, it obviously still requires a degree of technical ability that not everyone can count on having consistently. I just also don't see the problem in promoting other edge-guard options.
 

Mike_Tha_Hero

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Do you consider Ike cheap? Why or why not?
No, ease of use doesn't equate to "cheap"
I suppose I see the logic in that. I personally wouldn't consider edgehogging cheap, it obviously still requires a degree of technical ability that not everyone can count on having consistently. I just also don't see the problem in promoting other edge-guard options.
Driving into oncoming traffic requires a degree of technical ability but that doesn't mean it's something I should be doing.

How are you even justifying camp-like tactics because of the degree of technicality behind it? That's terribly flawed logic. It's universally understood that no matter the game, camping in any form is frowned upon. Yet here we are in a community where it's openly encouraged.

And that's just the camping side of things. Even as recovery disruption it could be argued that simply blocking someone's ability to grab the ledge takes no skill at all.
 

DaDavid

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No, ease of use doesn't equate to "cheap"

Driving into oncoming traffic requires a degree of technical ability but that doesn't mean it's something I should be doing.

How are you even justifying camp-like tactics because of the degree of technicality behind it? That's terribly flawed logic. It's universally understood that no matter the game, camping in any form is frowned upon. Yet here we are in a community where it's openly encouraged.

And that's just the camping side of things. Even as recovery disruption it could be argued that simply blocking someone's ability to grab the ledge takes no skill at all.
1. Your example of diving onto oncoming traffic is entirely ridiculous and ignores the important part of the sentence. "Not everyone can count on having."

2. I'm not defending edge-hogging haha. Read more better and don't get so heated over one statement that you misinterpreted.
 

Mike_Tha_Hero

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1. Your example of diving onto oncoming traffic is entirely ridiculous and ignores the important part of the sentence. "Not everyone can count on having."

2. I'm not defending edge-hogging haha. Read more better and don't get so heated over one statement that you misinterpreted.
I'm not heated at all, and you most certainly are defending edgehogging.
 

Dragonboy2k4

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Guys,if you ask me,I believe edgehogging as a whole is gone from this game,here me out.The top 10 complaints of Brawl besides the ones from the Smash Communities was the fact that some characters edgehogged better than than others and was deemed cheap due to early deaths and such by the mass majority of casual players.Thats the same reason why Wavedashing was lost outside of the Havok engine being placed in Brawl,not every character benefited from WDing as effective as others did.

"Air time and damage effect how long you have invincibility frames, but once those invincibility frames are up then your opponent will be able to steal the ledge from you".-

Sounds like both air time and damage only applies to those that have been struck by a hit and not those issuing out the damage because think about what you guys are saying,theres only a small handful of characters in the roster that can hit you while pursuing in mid-air to allow you to still edgegrab them if it were still possible with this system,which in turn means we'd see only 4+ characters used in tournaments,lol,dont think that going to happen.

Sakurai thriving for a bit more balance yet fun this time around,its pretty safe to say that were gonna see more character variety usage with of course nonsense thats gonna be broken as usual.Edgeguarding however is confirm and if you ask me,I think Link is gonna be hell with his new D-Air properties + Bombdropping with Z if thats still possible. o.o

But all and all,they didnt say anything about preventing recoveries the old fashion way,better get used to it fast lol.
 

Rockaphin

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I personally like it, my main was PT and I had a difficult time recovering with Ivysaur. Hopefully this will help with tether recoveries.
 

Chimera

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Those asking if you can edgehog still imo you can.

You just grab the ledge and if the other player tries to grab the ledge while you still have your invincibility frames on then the player will fall and die. But if you grab the ledge and your invincibility frames go out then the other player grabs the ledge you will then be pushed off the ledge.
I think this is right. It makes edge hogging much more difficult and technical, which, in my opinion, is a good idea. It brings in a lot to the meta game despite it being such a minor change. Also of note is that Mario seems punishable if Link can jump back off the ledge quickly enough. I'm pretty excited to see this in action.
 

DaDavid

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Gotta say that after watching RoM7 and a few matches at Xanadu, I'm more excited than ever for these changes to be ours to experiment with.

It does make you think though, animation wise popping characters up and off the ledge might look very strange based on the angle of approach, so I kinda have to wonder if it will only apply certain angles, or if the character attempting to edge-hog will be popped off in different ways based on that angle.

So say someone goes off the edge to edge-hog, and the recovering character is coming down onto the ledge (not coming up from the bottom) will that result in the edge-hogging character being popped towards the bottom of the screen? Just a thought.
 
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