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New(ish) to PM, new to Squirtle! That being said...

Darklink401

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As the title says, I DO have a BIT of experience with PM (mainly just fooled around with it a bit a while back in 3.5) but I never found someone that felt 'right'.

I thought about using Marth, since I use him in smash 4 and Brawl...but he didn't quite fit with me here.

I thought about using Link, but, as I main Link in Melee, I am worried that PM Link would make me weaken my Melee Link as I would take a lot of stuff for granted.

BUT I LOVE THIS TURTLE

He's so mobile, so cute, and the only issue I have with him is recovery (I just feel it goes nowhere)

So...that being said...

What are the basic do's and don'ts of this character? The only guide I found here after a quick search said that just never look at other Squirtle videos, and to realize this is a bad character and win with determination O^O
 

shinyskarmory

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http://smashboards.com/threads/the-3-5-shellshift-guide.385986/
and
http://smashboards.com/threads/squi...and-cool-names-for-things-video-added.332155/

(The first one should probably be stickied). Unfortunately no one has written an actual guide, but those are all of squirtle's weird techniques. Learn them, watch some good people play, and figure out how you want to use them.
Actually, that's a good idea. We should write some kind of community guide, especially since Squirtle is so complicated compared to some of the other PM characters. Problem is, all of the top Squirtle players either disagree with each other on most important points, or don't have the time to make a guide.

I'd be willing to do some kind of write up to serve as a starting point if people are interested, but I can't do it right now because I'm on my phone atm
 

Daftatt

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Actually, that's a good idea. We should write some kind of community guide, especially since Squirtle is so complicated compared to some of the other PM characters. Problem is, all of the top Squirtle players either disagree with each other on most important points, or don't have the time to make a guide.

I'd be willing to do some kind of write up to serve as a starting point if people are interested, but I can't do it right now because I'm on my phone atm
I've been honestly trying to do this for years, every damn time I get started at some point I realize I still don't know enough about how to play the character and my guide would be pointless though...

there's SO MUCH TO CONSIDER when writing a squirtle guide, he's arguably the least straight forward character on how to play in the game.

On top of that, every squirtle plays really REALLY differently, so a guide would have to be written in committee to avoid being super biased and incomplete.

In general I say there are 4 steps to getting good at squirtle. And consequently 4 levels of squirtle players. Many are level 2, a few more are level 3, and only a very small few players I would consider lvl 4 if any.

1 - Stop being amish, learn shellshift, learn slingjump, not necesarilly being able to implement them super well, but just being able to execute them consistently, LEARN HYDROGRAB. Lean how to jump out at both the start and end of shellshift to get momentum boosts

2 - Find your inner luigi, wavedash A LOT, learn wavelanding onto platforms, learn the invincible ledge dash REALLY well, I feel like all squirtles desperately need this technique, it turns the ledge into an advantageous position which is huge in so many matchups. Wavedashing out of shield, wavedashing different lengths, wavelanding out of Side-B hit, tech chasing with wavedashing. Learn zoning with bair and just general positioning with wavedash into shorthop/fullhop aerial to attack your opponent. Truly try and play the character like luigi

3 - find your inner capt falcon. Slingjump, A LOT. Learn slingjump wavedash (both directions out of slingjump), learn slingjump to offstage edgeguard (bair nair dair), learn short hop slingjump Dair crossup by using drift control to stop yourself in the air at a specific point to land in an advantageous position. Slingjump to reach platforms quickly, slingjump to followup out of throws, d-tilt into slingjump doublejump fair/nair/uair. Slinjump lets squirtle move quickly through the air, and increases his overall speed by a huge amount, arguably more than even his wavedash. To effectively use slingjump (creating space so you can do it, positioning accurately) is one of the biggest steps to becoming a high level squirtle.

4 - Now that you've learned movement, which is most of the character, you can start to work on finer points such as optimization, practice tech skill to cover distance as quickly as possible (allowing for longer combos), every grab starts turning into 0-deaths, tech chases become unstoppable, gimping becomes increasingly consistent, kill floaties off the top as soon as possible (80-110%), gimp spacies as soon as possible, kill midweights however you'd like. Aquajet like you're dirtboy, hydroplane U-smash like you're me, dunno what Dad does lmao.

just check this out, every level 4 squirtle should be capable of doing this (I would say I'm lvl 3+, not quite 4)

besides those main steps to being not terrible with squirtman, there are also basics that apply to every character like grab followups (D-throw is a DI trap with F-throw and U-throw), tech chasing on reaction, zoning (aerial watergun, grounded bubble, SHFFL Bair) so practice these from the start.

The goal to playing squirtle I feel is to with neutral by out-positioning your opponent, forcing an overextension, then getting a grab. Your throws can lead into tech chases or juggles that either lead offstage or go until death off the top. Every time the opponent escapes you go back to 1) NOT GETTING HIT and 2) making them think they can hit you (moving around). Since squirtle is so fast punishing a whiff should be something you can do from nearly anywhere onstage. Approaching directly with squirtle is BAD, you need to create openings since throwing out hitboxes as you move towards them is really dangerous. Hit and Run like pika, but when you do hit try and get a grab.
 
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shinyskarmory

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I've been honestly trying to do this for years, every damn time I get started at some point I realize I still don't know enough about how to play the character and my guide would be pointless though...

there's SO MUCH TO CONSIDER when writing a squirtle guide, he's arguably the least straight forward character on how to play in the game.

On top of that, every squirtle plays really REALLY differently, so a guide would have to be written in committee to avoid being super biased and incomplete.
Well, I actually had an idea for writing it by committee. Even though, as Squirtle mains, we disagree on everything (especially our terminology), there are a lot of things that really aren't debatable for Squirtle. Someone can lay out a basic description of all of our moves with frame data and some basic uses for each in a thread on the Squirtle forums. People who disagree or who think we left something out can post in the thread, and we can quote them in the guide (giving proper credit obviously).

Essentially, instead of pretending like our community has one way of playing Squirtle (when we don't and shouldn't) and hiding our different playstyles, we'll show off all the different ways people play the squirtman. Plus, even if it's not by committee, a guide will do great things in terms of attracting more people to play Squirtle, which will really help us develop our meta in the long term. That's not to say that we can't do it by ourselves with just the people we have now, but that it'll go faster if we have more people playing Squirtle and trying to find new combos/kill setups/jank for us to use.

*long skill tiering system*

just check this out, every level 4 squirtle should be capable of doing this (I would say I'm lvl 3+, not quite 4)
By that system I'd rate myself as a high tier 2 because I'm comfortable with a lot of Squirtle's tech and just have trouble getting used to some of the more timing reliant techs like hydropivot and wavesling (although I'm not too bad with wavesling, I just can't move the stick fast enough some days).

EDIT: Well, I figured that there would be at least a few moves where we'd have pretty much total agreement on what the move does for us and how to use it, like Bair, Nair, Dsmash, Usmash, and Waterfall. Those moves are pretty bread and butter for us. However, the disagreements on other moves will be interesting to watch; I know that I don't like Water Gun nearly as much as many of the Squirtle players in VODs do, but it might be my practice partners more than anything.
 
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Daftatt

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we'd need an entire guide for each move, well maybe not...

hmmmmm....
 
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Darklink401

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Oh wow, seems like a lot to take in O^O
I have no issues doing shellshift tech most of the time in training, but I had no idea it was such a pivotal part to Squirtle's game xD

I figured Squirtle just got small hits, but lots of combos and followups, till he could kill with one of his many kill setups (too bad training mode doesnt have a combo counter so I can see if these things are true combos....;-; )
 

cmart

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Oh wow, seems like a lot to take in O^O
I have no issues doing shellshift tech most of the time in training, but I had no idea it was such a pivotal part to Squirtle's game xD

I figured Squirtle just got small hits, but lots of combos and followups, till he could kill with one of his many kill setups (too bad training mode doesnt have a combo counter so I can see if these things are true combos....;-; )
Activate hitbox display in debug mode. When a character is in hitstun, they turn orange in this mode, and on the frame before hitstun wears off the tint changes a little. You can use this to determine true combos. For extra credit use a second controller and frame advance to input optimal DI when testing for combos/follow ups.
 

Darklink401

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Activate hitbox display in debug mode. When a character is in hitstun, they turn orange in this mode, and on the frame before hitstun wears off the tint changes a little. You can use this to determine true combos. For extra credit use a second controller and frame advance to input optimal DI when testing for combos/follow ups.
I tried using Debug mode once.

Failed terribly :(

Can it be done with a Fight Pad (that gamecube controller-like thing that connects to the wiimote) and on the wii U?

And for clarification, how is it done? O^O
 
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cmart

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Yea the help mode will let you know if something was true, but of course it won't count hard to escape strings or allow you to input DI. I believe debug should work the same on your controller since it has all the same buttons, but I'll admit I don't know for sure.
Enter Debug by pressing L + R + DPad Down. While debug is on, your DPad is generally used for debug commands in conjunction with another button so be careful when you press any DPad direction.
Hitbox Display is toggled by R + DPad Right. There are three states - Off (default), On, and On with Interpolation (shows last frame's hitbox position since the game stretches hitboxes between these points). While hitboxes are On (either On) color overlays are used to show states such as invincibility, armor, hitstun, etc.
Frame Advance is always On in Debug mode. Press Start to freeze frame, and Z to advance a frame. The normal Start input is done by X + DPad Up, and you can Pause during Freeze Frame.
If you get "lost" in debug (having things you don't know how to disable On) you can always back out to the menu and set Pause to Hold, which disables Debug and restores all its defaults.
 

Darklink401

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Yea the help mode will let you know if something was true, but of course it won't count hard to escape strings or allow you to input DI. I believe debug should work the same on your controller since it has all the same buttons, but I'll admit I don't know for sure.
Enter Debug by pressing L + R + DPad Down. While debug is on, your DPad is generally used for debug commands in conjunction with another button so be careful when you press any DPad direction.
Hitbox Display is toggled by R + DPad Right. There are three states - Off (default), On, and On with Interpolation (shows last frame's hitbox position since the game stretches hitboxes between these points). While hitboxes are On (either On) color overlays are used to show states such as invincibility, armor, hitstun, etc.
Frame Advance is always On in Debug mode. Press Start to freeze frame, and Z to advance a frame. The normal Start input is done by X + DPad Up, and you can Pause during Freeze Frame.
If you get "lost" in debug (having things you don't know how to disable On) you can always back out to the menu and set Pause to Hold, which disables Debug and restores all its defaults.
Sadly, doesn't seem to work.

Screw you, fight pad ;-;
 

PlateProp

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Using the fight pad should work fine, it's just a classic controller and I was still able to use debug with mine
 

PlateProp

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They dont even make those GC ones anymore xD my girlfriend has one but her sisters refuse to sell it to me :(
If the "Wii" on the front of the console reads to the side (when the console is horizontal)

then if wont play gc games.
If the "wii" part reads upright (vertical when the console is on the side), the console can play gc games.
 

Darklink401

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If the "Wii" on the front of the console reads to the side (when the console is horizontal)

then if wont play gc games.
If the "wii" part reads upright (vertical when the console is on the side), the console can play gc games.
I just look to see if they have the part to put GC controllers, but that works too~

if I do buy one, one day, I'll be on the lookout for that xD
 

Spills

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I just look to see if they have the part to put GC controllers, but that works too~

if I do buy one, one day, I'll be on the lookout for that xD
The Wii U has 2 different adapters for GC controllers the one that's meant for Sm4sh but it won't work with PM. PM runs through the vWii part of the Wii U which isn't designed to register GC controllers. If you have a good enough computer you can play PM on your PC via Dolphin via that adapter.

The other type of adapter, which is the one you would need is called a Mayflash adapter. It allows you to plug a GC controller into a Wii Mote. I don't know how laggy it is if at all.
 

Darklink401

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The Wii U has 2 different adapters for GC controllers the one that's meant for Sm4sh but it won't work with PM. PM runs through the vWii part of the Wii U which isn't designed to register GC controllers. If you have a good enough computer you can play PM on your PC via Dolphin via that adapter.

The other type of adapter, which is the one you would need is called a Mayflash adapter. It allows you to plug a GC controller into a Wii Mote. I don't know how laggy it is if at all.
I knew about the mayflash but as I have a not so good computer and a GC adapter already, I decided to just use the Fight pad, since it's GC-esque.

Havent heard of any issues with it XP
 
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