Congratulations, Min Min! ARMS character(s) for Smash discussion

[Guybrush20X6]

Back to ARMS, how do you think the ARM-aments will be handled?

Will they use one weapon through the whole match, will they swap between their signature three ARMS or will they pick and mix like Megaman?

 

[LukeRNG]

Does the idea of "All-Stars" even matter anymore with the way Smash steadily loosens its inclusion standards? The time Smash 6 actually starts, most of the newcomers for returning series will end up being C-listers (if not B), even if just for Mario alone.

If anything, Dixie's inclusion would matter mainly to round out the protagonists of the SNES DKC trilogy. Even then you'd still need Cranky and Funky if you wanted all of Tropical Freeze's stars.

Could you explain what this listers thing is and how it relates to smash bros? Didn't really understand what was said in that page.

 

[fogbadge]

Back to ARMS, how do you think the ARM-aments will be handled?

Will they use one weapon through the whole match, will they swap between their signature three ARMS or will they pick and mix like Megaman?

i can see it being either way, i imagine they switch between/most prominent in the moveset would be the 3 signatures of whoever the character is

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Could you explain what this listers thing is and how it relates to smash bros? Didn't really understand what was said in that page.

Basically:

A-list: Main characters, major villains and mascots.
B-list: Secondary characters, villains and memorable one-shot characters.
C-list: Minor characters.
D-list: Regular enemies and forgotten one-shot characters.

At least, that's how I understand it.

 

[fogbadge]

Basically:

A-list: Main characters, major villains and mascots.
B-list: Secondary characters, villains and memorable one-shot characters.
C-list: Minor characters.
D-list: Regular enemies and forgotten one-shot characters.

At least, that's how I understand it.

and then theres z-list: daisy

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Back to ARMS, how do you think the ARM-aments will be handled?

Will they use one weapon through the whole match, will they swap between their signature three ARMS or will they pick and mix like Megaman?

Depends on the character, honestly.

Anyone with a hammer ARM (so Mechanica and Max Brass), I can see those hammers be translated into the Smash attacks, with the other two being swappable.

 

[Trevenant]

Back to ARMS, how do you think the ARM-aments will be handled?

Will they use one weapon through the whole match, will they swap between their signature three ARMS or will they pick and mix like Megaman?

They’ll probably pick and mix, it offers the most variety in terms of moveset potential.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

and then theres z-list: daisy

So Z-List is "characters created purely because the creator felt a little weird using someone else's characters so they made a stand-in for no good reason?"
(So also that Goat and Orca in DK Jungle Beat that replaced Rambi and Engarde)

I love ya Daisy, but we gotta be honest.

 

[fogbadge]

So Z-List is "characters created purely because the creator felt a little weird using someone else's characters so they made a stand-in for no good reason?"
(So also that Goat and Orca in DK Jungle Beat that replaced Rambi and Engarde)

I love ya Daisy, but we gotta be honest.

something like that

dont let them find out its cause i dont like her

 

[Guybrush20X6]

They’ll probably pick and mix, it offers the most variety in terms of moveset potential.

So, purely on what their defualt three ARMS do, which character would have the best set for Smash?

 

[Trevenant]

So, purely on what their defualt three ARMS do, which character would have the best set for Smash?

Based on variety I’d say either Mechanica or Min Min. Most unique arms and could easily function in Smash

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

So Z-List is "characters created purely because the creator felt a little weird using someone else's characters so they made a stand-in for no good reason?"
(So also that Goat and Orca in DK Jungle Beat that replaced Rambi and Engarde)

I love ya Daisy, but we gotta be honest.

In fairness, JP creators have a bit of a weird relationship with being hesitant to using stuff made by other people...

It's a miracle that Koizumi's Mario games had him be far less hesitant than with Jungle Beat.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

In fairness, JP creators have a bit of a weird relationship with being hesitant to using stuff made by other people...

It's a miracle that Koizumi's Mario games had him be far less hesitant than with Jungle Beat.

Well we do owe that strange relationship (and a burnout induced parody) for the Wario Land and in turn Wario Ware series.

 

[SwitchButton]

How does Ribbon Girl and Min-Min being a couple of inches shorter than Spring Man and Ninjara matter?

Heights + poses have a surprisingly large effect on hitbox sizes. And remember, hitboxes cannot be altered in any way with costumes. What if they made the hitbox to match the crouching Ninjara? If you used the erect standing spring man, and attack aimed at his upper half would pass through him since the hitbox would not cover his upper body. Obviously that would not be allowed to be put into the game.

Ken wasn't made an Echo Fighter because he has one or two different animations compared to Ryu, he was made an Echo Fighter because he plays so fundamentally differently compared to Ryu

So you agree then that ARMS cannot be alts because that same applies to them. Spring Man is EXCESSIVELY rushdown oriented, Ninjara is intentionally defensive and reactive (he literally has increased speed and less dash endlag while being much more frail then Spring Man), Ribbon Girl is an air fighter who should rarely ever touch the floor, and minmin is akin to an anime fighting game character with an install and emphasis on her air dashes having the deflection kicks

How are they any less unique then Ken the ORIGINAL clone character?

Admittedly, I should've clarified all this from the outset, but I kind of thought it would be common sense. Obviously if these four were included as one character, Spring Man wouldn't be disappearing like a ninja, nor would Ribbon Girl be growing a dragon on her left arm. Like, come the hell on, man.

And now you say the characters should lose their SIGNATURE attacks and abilities? Why? Why did Ken get to be on his own but the ARMS crew needs to be gutted and botched to fit together? When has Smash ever REMOVED a characters defining mechanical traits?

 

[MisterMike]

Heights + poses have a surprisingly large effect on hitbox sizes. And remember, hitboxes cannot be altered in any way with costumes. What if they made the hitbox to match the crouching Ninjara? If you used the erect standing spring man, and attack aimed at his upper half would pass through him since the hitbox would not cover his upper body. Obviously that would not be allowed to be put into the game.

In terms of poses, I really don't see the big deal in them having a very slightly different idle animation, especially since it'd pretty much be one of the only animations that would need to be changed: Their walk, run, jump, fall, jab, tilts, aerials, smash attacks, special moves, shield, dodges, dizzy, item holding, and Final Smash animations would be identical. It wouldn't be the first time they've done something like this either: Pokemon Trainer has different idles depending on whether you use the male or female alt. Now sure, they're in the background and thus it doesn't affect their hurtboxes, but my point still stands. Every other animation is identical, so having a slightly different idle wouldn't be as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. And in terms of height, they'd all be the same height. I mean, the difference is only an inch.

So you agree then that ARMS cannot be alts because that same applies to them. Spring Man is EXCESSIVELY rushdown oriented, Ninjara is intentionally defensive and reactive (he literally has increased speed and less dash endlag while being much more frail then Spring Man), Ribbon Girl is an air fighter who should rarely ever touch the floor, and minmin is akin to an anime fighting game character with an install and emphasis on her air dashes having the deflection kicks

How are they any less unique than Ken, the ORIGINAL clone character?

A playstyle is not at all comparable to having entirely different special attacks. These four ARMS characters all fight the same way: They all use long range punches, they all equip two different/identical ARMS, they all move at about the same rate (sans Ninjara), they all jump about the same (not counting extra jumps), they all grab the same way (not counting their different throws, however the only significant difference there is their animations), and they all use the same special attack when their super meter is full. The only thing that significantly separates these four are their gimmicks, which are more passive compared to, say, Ken's Final Smashes and command inputs.

And now you say the characters should lose their SIGNATURE attacks and abilities? Why?

Because those "signature abilities" you're referring to wouldn't be as effective in Smash as they are in ARMS.

• Spring Man's shockwave effect he does once he's fully charged his arms that reflects an attack would be impractical in Smash due how hard of a read you'd have to make to actually use it.
• Ribbon Girl's air dashes and instant drop moves are pretty much universal amongst all Smash fighters.
• Ninjara's teleporting is moot given that every character can dodge whilst shielding and in the air.
• Min-Min's dragon arm gimmick wouldn't work due to how unlikely it is that you'll be able to properly use it. In order to use it, you'd have to take a couple seconds to charge yourself up, then make sure that you don't take any damage and land some hits, in a fast-paced game like Smash where you're pretty much guarenteed to take at least a little damage.

Why did Ken get to be on his own but the ARMS crew needs to be gutted and botched to fit together?

Simple: the concept I'm proposing is not for an Echo Fighter, and these four ARMS characters could make it work. And can you explain to me how this is a bad thing, exactly? Because I certainly don't see it that way. By combining all of their unique gimmicks into one fighter, I see this as a way to really make something greater than the sum of it's parts: a long-ranged boxer character whose strength is boosted when >100%, can jump twice in the air, and has a good number of different ARMS at their disposal.

When has Smash ever REMOVED a characters defining mechanical traits?

Ganondorf and Dark Samus.

 

[Sigran101]

How does Ribbon Girl and Min-Min being a couple of inches shorter than Spring Man and Ninjara matter? How does a character's arms being slightly thinner matter? How does each character's idle animations being ever so slightly different matter? You haven't explained how any of this precludes them from fitting as one fighter.

Also, if you really don't want to read or respond to all or even half of my counterpoints, why are you still trying to refute what I'm saying? I thought because you replied to my initial comment that you wanted to convince me otherwise, but you don't seem to really want to give enough of a **** to properly understand my arguments and counter them. So why keep trying to convince me I'm wrong?

• Characters like Kirby and Olimar are larger in Smash than they are in their home series.
• Ness and Lucas don't use PK Fire, PK Freeze, PK Thunder or PK Starstorm in their home games.
• Fox, Falco, Wolf and Captain Falcon are seldom shown to leave their vehicles in order to fight, and in the rare instances in which they do they almost never use any of the moves they use in Smash.
• Zelda is capable of using Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, and Farore's Wind despite never using them in the games, and all three of them differ in how they operate from the games.
• Shiek's entire moveset was made up wholesale for Smash, and it wasn't until Ultimate where she actually started using something to attack from her home series. That being her knife seen in promotional art for Ocarina of Time.
• Marth and Roy's movesets, and by extension Lucina and Chrom's, were almost entirely made up for Smash.
• Pit's side-special from Brawl was completely made up as well.
• As was most of Meta Knight's moveset.
• Zero Suit Samus doesn't have a laser whip in the games, and sure as hell doen't have jet heels.
• Diddy Kong can spontaniously create banana peels whenever he feels like it.
• Villager and Isabelle don't fire Gyroids like rockets, among other things.
• Mega Man can use more than one robot master weapon at a time and doesn't change color when doing so like he does in his games.
• The Koopalings in Smash aren't anywhere near as small as Bowser Jr. is their home series, most notably Ludwig, Iggy and Roy.
• The Duck Hunt Dog doesn't have any form of attack in his home series and doesn't team up with a duck whatsoever.
• Dark Samus doesn't use any of her Phazon abilities as a fighter in Smash like she does in the Prime games.
• Incineroar's Alolan Whip isn't an actual move in the Pokemon games.
• Joker can't use Arsene's wings to fly in Persona 5, and only does so in the overly stylized intro.
• Banjo & Kazooie don't use Drill Bill in the games like they do in Smash.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. Sakurai and company may be very detailed-oriented when it comes to characters, but they are more than willing to expand upon characters, or just outright make **** up, in order to make them work in Smash. Compared to all of these characters I've listed, Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara, and Min-Min all sharing the same amalgamated and slightly abridged moveset in Smash would actually be an example of characters being very faithful to their home series.


Keyword: "CAN", not "MUST". Alph was originally going to be made into a clone during Smash 4's development, using Rock Pikmin rather than Purple Pikmin, but they decided against it.


Or, y'know, maybe they had already finished up on Peach and decided to pad out the roster with another fighter. Or maybe they just really wanted to satisfy fan demand. Perhaps they just wanted to avoid having to cut the number of alt colors she has in half. There are plenty of other reasons aside from her having different animations.


Not at all. All you'd have to do is make Ninjara disappear in a puff of smoke during his dodge's invincibility frames, then have him reappear in another puff of smoke when his invincibility frames end. You wouldn't have to change the hitboxes at all, just the visuals.


Ken wasn't made an Echo Fighter because he has one or two different animations compared to Ryu, he was made an Echo Fighter because he plays so fundamentally differently compared to Ryu, most notably with his very different Final Smash, that having him be alts for Ryu wouldn't work. The gimmicks these four ARMS fighters have are not so wildly different that they can't be boiled down to their base essences and turned into a single, unifying moveset for all four of them to share.


>Implying I ever said that
When I'm referring to this hypothetical ARMS fighter being an amalgamation of these four characters, I'm obviously talking more in terms of gameplay mechanics rather than visuals.

• Spring Man's gimmick of permanent change when at low health could easily be translated into a general power boost when at >100% damage. His shockwave gimmick would have to be cut, however, as it wouldn't be all too useful in a battle like Smash where you're much more mobile.
• Ribbon Girl's gimmick of having up to three mid-air jumps could easily be translated into a blanket 2 extra mid-air jumps instead. Her other two gimmicks, those being air dodges and fast falls, are already things that every Smash character can do at base, so they wouldn't really count.
• Ninjara's gimmick of being able to dodge like a ninja is a bit tricker to impliment because every character in Smash can dodge, so it would have to be relegated to a visual difference exclusive to Ninjara where his body disappears in a puff of smoke and reappears after the dodge invincibility ends. The dodge would be identical for every character, but Ninjara's dodge alone would have that visual difference.
• Min-Min's gimmick of her left arm keeping it's charge indefinitely until she takes damage would be pretty difficult to impliment into Smash, since it's a game where you're bound to take even minor damage eventually, which means it wouldn't be too useful. As a result, this too would have to be relegated to a visual difference wherein her left arm gets charged during specific moments, such as being >100% damage or during their Final Smash, which would be the same for all four of them. Her aerial kicks would be incorporated into the fighter's up-air, because it wouldn't be too out of the ordinary for characters with legs to do kicks.

Admittedly, I should've clarified all this from the outset, but I kind of thought it would be common sense. Obviously if these four were included as one character, Spring Man wouldn't be disappearing like a ninja, nor would Ribbon Girl be growing a dragon on her left arm. Like, come the hell on, man.

Sorry if I'm not responding to each of the points in each post. You're posts are long and I don't have all day to respond in kind. But only one thing needs to not work for the alt concept to be thrown out.

Second, no need to resort to claiming I don't give a ****. That's not only completely uncalled for, but quite arrogant to assume that the only way I could disagree with you is if I don't understand your arguments. I couldn't possibly just understand and not agree because your logic is so airtight.

As far as your actual argument, all I can say is "the ****?" Are you legit trolling? Because I really don't understand this. You do realize there only has to be one thing that doesn't work right? I don't have to prove that literally every possible reason one could think of for it not to work holds up. I literally didn't say one single thing you "countered" there in my last post.

Here's what I pointed out, and I'm not going to respond to another argument until you address this. And no, responding with another question doesn't count.

Why is it that Dark pit, as you said, has to be an echo because he can't use the lightning Chariot EVEN THOUGH HE USED IT IN UPRISING since smash apparently takes place after the game, yet Springman can teleport, hop on music notes, and turn his arm into a dragon? Even if you claim it's because of the sacred treasures in smash 4, that's just one ability not 3. How is it not a double standard?

That's what my post was about. Don't "counter" my posts with literally unrelated arguments and insults. Respond to my actual post.

As far as the other things you said, I agree some of them don't matter, but I think the animations do. Your argument, which was "I don't see how it matters" is not an argument, it's just an opinion. I would argue that animations and taunts do matter, case in point Daisy, who is exactly the same as Peach just with a different personality. Far more similar to Peach than the ARMS characters are to each other.

This time try responding to the arguments I actually made, avoiding using opinions as arguments, and not insulting me.

Edit: Also yes I didn't respond to the whole thing. I chose to address just the part that implicated me.

 

[SwitchButton]

In terms of poses, I really don't see the big deal in them having a very slightly different idle animation, especially since it'd pretty much be one of the only animations that would need to be changed: Their walk, run, jump, fall, jab, tilts, aerials, smash attacks, special moves, shield, dodges, dizzy, item holding, and Final Smash animations would be identical

"Slightly different"?! These character don't move or act anything alike. Ninjara crouches heavily at all times. When he stands, moves, jumps, anything, he is alwaya using his OWN posture. Now imagine this problem x4. Daisy PROVES that these animations are too much for a costume so you can't say "I dont think it matters" and expect it to tread water.

A playstyle is not at all comparable to having entirely different special attacks. These four ARMS characters all fight the same way: They all use long range punches, they all equip two different/identical ARMS, they all move at about the same rate (sans Ninjara),

Except that they all have distinct playstyles thanks in part to their mechical differences. This cannot be argued. A rushdown Ninjara will be utterly crushed by a veteran player.

Because those "signature abilities" you're referring to wouldn't be as effective in Smash as they are in ARMS.

Yes they would. This is utter nonsense. It is objectively wrong to say that having 3 air jumps "wouldnt be effective" in Smash. That is a MASSIVE difference. As is any kind of invincibility or super armor that teleporting or spring man's shield would cause. Minmin's dragon arm is a whole entire other bucket of worms because of how insanely gamechanging it would be. Its an INSTALL for gods sake.
And your only argument againts these mechanics are "they dont matter to me"? Really?

fighter, I see this as a way to really make something greater than the sum of it's parts: a long-ranged boxer character whose strength is boosted when >100%, can jump twice in the air, and has a good number of different ARMS at their disposal.

But they AREN'T parts. They're entirely separate entities. These characters aren't even allies. They're not built to fit together like cogs.

If you're just THAT eager to play as multiple ARMS characters then dont worry. I can absolutely promise you that the next Smash will add more reps for this game and its inevitable sequel.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm really anticipating Min Min and Twintelle. Since base game.
This announcement was underwhelming for me (because it was spoiled), but I am excited none the less!

Yes they would. This is utter nonsense. It is objectively wrong to say that having 3 air jumps "wouldnt be effective" in Smash. That is a MASSIVE difference. As is any kind of invincibility or super armor that teleporting or spring man's shield would cause. Minmin's dragon arm is a whole entire other bucket of worms because of how insanely gamechanging it would be. Its an INSTALL for gods sake.
And your only argument againts these mechanics are "they dont matter to me"? Really?

For me- the reason it doesnt matter is because Ken and Ryu don't make any sense as echoes. The words don't matter. The characters will be categorized in whatever way gets the best PR. And if that means two characters that maybe arent that similar are going to be shoved into one character for better promotional/ public relations reasons, then I can see that happening.

Ultimately, the ARMS character is probably getting in for promotional purposes. ARMS is a game based on characters- really, really unique characters. Sure- they should each get their own space. But that isnt what matters. Money is what matters. Better than having one unique character would be to have two characters that are exciting to people. Many people. People who will buy ARMS.

This is a created world. We arent ever going to 'crack the code.' The debate is silly because there is no right- there is only the outcome, and our opinions do not matter at all.

 

[MisterMike]

Sorry if I'm not responding to each of the points in each post. You're posts are long and I don't have all day to respond in kind. But only one thing needs to not work for the alt concept to be thrown out.

Second, no need to resort to claiming I don't give a ****. That's not only completely uncalled for, but quite arrogant to assume that the only way I could disagree with you is if I don't understand your arguments. I couldn't possibly just understand and not agree because your logic is so airtight.

As far as your actual argument, all I can say is "the ****?" Are you legit trolling? Because I really don't understand this. You do realize there only has to be one thing that doesn't work right? I don't have to prove that literally every possible reason one could think of for it not to work holds up. I literally didn't say one single thing you "countered" there in my last post.

Here's what I pointed out, and I'm not going to respond to another argument until you address this. And no, responding with another question doesn't count.

Why is it that Dark pit, as you said, has to be an echo because he can't use the lightning Chariot EVEN THOUGH HE USED IT IN UPRISING since smash apparently takes place after the game, yet Springman can teleport, hop on music notes, and turn his arm into a dragon? Even if you claim it's because of the sacred treasures in smash 4, that's just one ability not 3. How is it not a double standard?

That's what my post was about. Don't "counter" my posts with literally unrelated arguments and insults. Respond to my actual post.

As far as the other things you said, I agree some of them don't matter, but I think the animations do. Your argument, which was "I don't see how it matters" is not an argument, it's just an opinion. I would argue that animations and taunts do matter, case in point Daisy, who is exactly the same as Peach just with a different personality. Far more similar to Peach than the ARMS characters are to each other.

This time try responding to the arguments I actually made, avoiding using opinions as arguments, and not insulting me.

Edit: Also yes I didn't respond to the whole thing. I chose to address just the part that implicated me.

First off, most of those comments I made in that post weren't direct at you whatsoever. Almost all of those were in response to SwitchButton , and only the last one, this one, was directed at you:

>Implying I ever said that
When I'm referring to this hypothetical ARMS fighter being an amalgamation of these four characters, I'm obviously talking more in terms of gameplay mechanics rather than visuals.

• Spring Man's gimmick of permanent change when at low health could easily be translated into a general power boost when at >100% damage. His shockwave gimmick would have to be cut, however, as it wouldn't be all too useful in a battle like Smash where you're much more mobile.
• Ribbon Girl's gimmick of having up to three mid-air jumps could easily be translated into a blanket 2 extra mid-air jumps instead. Her other two gimmicks, those being air dodges and fast falls, are already things that every Smash character can do at base, so they wouldn't really count.
• Ninjara's gimmick of being able to dodge like a ninja is a bit tricker to impliment because every character in Smash can dodge, so it would have to be relegated to a visual difference exclusive to Ninjara where his body disappears in a puff of smoke and reappears after the dodge invincibility ends. The dodge would be identical for every character, but Ninjara's dodge alone would have that visual difference.
• Min-Min's gimmick of her left arm keeping it's charge indefinitely until she takes damage would be pretty difficult to impliment into Smash, since it's a game where you're bound to take even minor damage eventually, which means it wouldn't be too useful. As a result, this too would have to be relegated to a visual difference wherein her left arm gets charged during specific moments, such as being >100% damage or during their Final Smash, which would be the same for all four of them. Her aerial kicks would be incorporated into the fighter's up-air, because it wouldn't be too out of the ordinary for characters with legs to do kicks.

Admittedly, I should've clarified all this from the outset, but I kind of thought it would be common sense. Obviously if these four were included as one character, Spring Man wouldn't be disappearing like a ninja, nor would Ribbon Girl be growing a dragon on her left arm. Like, come the hell on, man.

Second, to answer your question: It's not a double standard because I never said that Spring Man would be teleporting around, hopping on music notes, or turn his arm into a dragon as you described. In actuality, as part of this 4-in-1 character moveset as I see it...

1. Ninjara's teleportation would be relegated to an entirely visual difference exclusive to Ninjara's dodges.
2. I never specified that every one of the four characters would have the music note visual effect, all I specified is that they would have an extra mid-air jump to represent this ability. The effect doesn't really matter.
3. Min-Min's dragon arm effect would be relegated to an entirely visual difference exclusive to Min-Min when she's fully charged and when she's doing her Final Smash.

And regarding Dark Pit, the reason why I said he had to be an Echo Fighter due to his different Final Smash was because... well, that was the justification Sakurai gave when he made him an into one, and I think it makes a decent amount of sense. Originally he was just supposed to be an alt for Pit, but one of the designers had already modeled out the Electroshock Arm and Sakurai wanted to give him his Dark Pit Staff as his Final Smash.

Hopefully that answers your question.

Third, I can't help find it a bit funny that you complain that I'm insulting you a lot when your opening response to me is to sum up my position as, and I quote:

"Dark Pit using the lightning Chariot would be ridiculous, but Springman teleporting, hopping off of music notes, and turning his arm into a dragon is completely reasonable."

Translation

"I'm not a fan of ARMS so I don't care as much about proper representation as I do for these other series."

I dunno, sounds pretty insulting if you ask me.

"Slightly different"?! These character don't move or act anything alike. Ninjara crouches heavily at all times. When he stands, moves, jumps, anything, he is always using his OWN posture. Now imagine this problem x4. Daisy PROVES that these animations are too much for a costume so you can't say "I dont think it matters" and expect it to tread water.

Why is it that you put so much emphasis on how a character looks rather than how they fuction? Seriously, it's like every time you express just how different these characters are from one another you always default to "THESE GUYS LOOK SO DIFFERENT, THOUGH! THIS ONE STANDS SLIGHTLY LOWER, THIS ONE IS MORE CONFIDENT, AND THIS ONE IS MORE SERIOUS! THAT MAKES THEM COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!". Sure, Ninjara crouches more that the other three, and Spring Man stands more upright, but gimmicks aside, they're pretty similar in terms of playstyle.

You want a good example of two characters who are actually wildly different to eachother? Let's compare Spring Man to Dr. Coyle. There is no way that Dr. Coyle could work as an alt for Spring Man because her gimmick fundamentally changes how she operates. Spring Man is bound by gravity and has to jump to get off the ground, whereas Dr. Coyle levitates at all times. As a result, there is no way that she could share the same animations that Spring Man has. Another example of this would be comparing Ribbon Girl to Byte & Barq. Byte & Barq couldn't be alts for Ribbon Girl because of their unique duo gimmick. A final one would be Min-Min to Helix. Helix's entire movement is based around being able to freely shift his body around to dodge attacks, which Min-Min can't do whatsoever.

Yes they would. This is utter nonsense. It is objectively wrong to say that having 3 air jumps "wouldnt be effective" in Smash. That is a MASSIVE difference. As is any kind of invincibility or super armor that teleporting or spring man's shield would cause. Minmin's dragon arm is a whole entire other bucket of worms because of how insanely gamechanging it would be. Its an INSTALL for gods sake.
And your only argument againts these mechanics are "they dont matter to me"? Really?

That's not what I was referring to and you know it. I wasn't talking about stuff like that, rather I was talking about the ones I listed directly below the comment this response of yours quoted. Y'know I didn't want to say it, but I really think you're deliberately trying to take me out of context when you do **** like this. "I'm not responding to all or even half of your counterpoints because you're just repeating the same thing over and over." Yeah sure, whatever you say.

 

[Sigran101]

First off, most of those comments I made in that post weren't direct at you whatsoever. Almost all of those were in response to SwitchButton , and only the last one, this one, was directed at you:


Second, to answer your question: It's not a double standard because I never said that Spring Man would be teleporting around, hopping on music notes, or turn his arm into a dragon as you described. In actuality, as part of this 4-in-1 character moveset as I see it...

1. Ninjara's teleportation would be relegated to an entirely visual difference exclusive to Ninjara's dodges.
2. I never specified that every one of the four characters would have the music note visual effect, all I specified is that they would have an extra mid-air jump to represent this ability. The effect doesn't really matter.
3. Min-Min's dragon arm effect would be relegated to an entirely visual difference exclusive to Min-Min when she's fully charged and when she's doing her Final Smash.

And regarding Dark Pit, the reason why I said he had to be an Echo Fighter due to his different Final Smash was because... well, that was the justification Sakurai gave when he made him an into one, and I think it makes a decent amount of sense. Originally he was just supposed to be an alt for Pit, but one of the designers had already modeled out the Electroshock Arm and Sakurai wanted to give him his Dark Pit Staff as his Final Smash.

Hopefully that answers your question.

Third, I can't help find it a bit funny that you complain that I'm insulting you a lot when your opening response to me is to sum up my position as, and I quote:

I dunno, sounds pretty insulting if you ask me.


Why is it that you put so much emphasis on how a character looks rather than how they fuction? Seriously, it's like every time you express just how different these characters are from one another you always default to "THESE GUYS LOOK SO DIFFERENT, THOUGH! THIS ONE STANDS SLIGHTLY LOWER, THIS ONE IS MORE CONFIDENT, AND THIS ONE IS MORE SERIOUS! THAT MAKES THEM COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!". Sure, Ninjara crouches more that the other three, and Spring Man stands more upright, but gimmicks aside, they're pretty similar in terms of playstyle.

You want a good example of two characters who are actually wildly different to eachother? Let's compare Spring Man to Dr. Coyle. There is no way that Dr. Coyle could work as an alt for Spring Man because her gimmick fundamentally changes how she operates. Spring Man is bound by gravity and has to jump to get off the ground, whereas Dr. Coyle levitates at all times. As a result, there is no way that she could share the same animations that Spring Man has. Another example of this would be comparing Ribbon Girl to Byte & Barq. Byte & Barq couldn't be alts for Ribbon Girl because of their unique duo gimmick. A final one would be Min-Min to Helix. Helix's entire movement is based around being able to freely shift his body around to dodge attacks, which Min-Min can't do whatsoever.


That's not what I was referring to and you know it. I wasn't talking about stuff like that, rather I was talking about the ones I listed directly below the comment this response of yours quoted. Y'know I didn't want to say it, but I really think you're deliberately trying to take me out of context when you do **** like this. "I'm not responding to all or even half of your counterpoints because you're just repeating the same thing over and over." Yeah sure, whatever you say.

Oh, that was totally my bad. Sorry about that. For some reason I thought it was the first section that was quoting me, not the last one, so I got really confused at the unrelated argument and the aggression. My mistake. That does sound more reasonable at least, but I definitely still think the animation differences are important because of Daisy. Also, I think Springman having extra jumps would be really weird, and the dragon arm and teleport should be implemented in a more meaningful way to represent the characters well. That's exactly what I mean when I say cramming them all together would make them poor representations.

As far as Dark pit, the fact that Sakurai said it doesn't make it not a double standard. You're still saying that similar differences to what made DP an echo simply don't matter as far as the ARMS character.

And I apologise for the earlier comment being insulting. I meant it to sound like more of a quip pointing out a double standard. It was not my intention to come across as insulting you.

Thanks for calmly explaining that stuff when I reacted like that. Sorry about the unwarranted aggression there. I was legit confused.

 

[MisterMike]

Oh, that was totally my bad. Sorry about that. For some reason I thought it was the first section that was quoting me, not the last one, so I got really confused at the unrelated argument and the aggression. My mistake.

That's okay, it's an honest mistake.

That does sound more reasonable at least, but I definitely still think the animation differences are important because of Daisy. Also, I think Springman having extra jumps would be really weird, and the dragon arm and teleport should be implemented in a more meaningful way to represent the characters well. That's exactly what I mean when I say cramming them all together would make them poor representations.

Well the way I see it, if they're all put together as a 4-in-1 fighter, I think the only animations that would need to be changed would be their idle, their taunts, and their victory animations. Aside from that, given their average heights being rather similar, they could use the same punches, kicks and whatnot as eachother. But I totally understand where you're coming from here.

As far as Dark pit, the fact that Sakurai said it doesn't make it not a double standard. You're still saying that similar differences to what made DP an echo simply don't matter as far as the ARMS character.

I guess I see what you mean there, though my argument was never that they should be alts instead of Echoes, but rather I'm trying to put together how they could be alts of eachother. Personally I don't really mind either, though I think at this point given how this DLC seems to be the last batch and that each of them lists a single fighter with each Challenger Pack, it's very unlikely we'll be getting any more Echoes.

And I apologise for the earlier comment being insulting. I meant it to sound like more of a quip pointing out a double standard. It was not my intention to come across as insulting you.

Nah, it's fine. I sometimes unintentionally do stuff like that from time to time as well.

Thanks for calmly explaining that stuff when I reacted like that. Sorry about the unwarranted aggression there. I was legit confused.

No problem, and thanks for being willing to calmly talk this out.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Having officially given ARMS a proper try, I'm in a weird position where I want a specific character and a specific stage: Mechanica and Ramen Bowl.

Mechanica's my current favorite (and no, it's not just because I like the girl-in-a-mech trope that Tron Bonne and D.va follow). She'd make a unique heavyweight with decent projectiles and smashes from the Homie rockets and hammers.

Ramen Bowl is my favorite stage, just from aesthetics alone. How well it would translate into Smash, I don't know, but I just really dig it.

And to round it all off, music. We NEED Ribbon Ring.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm a bit confused by this debate, quite frankly.

There are clear favorites in ARMS, at least as far as public outcry is concerned.
That's Min Min and Twintelle.

Each is actually a perfect representation of East vs West as well (meaning that even as far back as the reveals, Hollywood Twintelle was beloved here, and Cultural Stereotype Min Min was had a public outcry of support in the East).

Spring Man would have been revealed if he were the character, because most people incorrectly think he is the obvious choice.
But Spring Man is not the poster child. There is no poster child. The game has generic characters on the front to explain the game, as its the first game.
The story does not actually favor Spring Man, who is more equivalent to Liu Kang in Mortal Kombat.
Character based games frequently rotate the covers (like POKEMON), and I can quickly see that the character would be unlikely to be Spring Man or Ribbon Girl.

Boiled down, quickly typed arguments I've made from two years ago.


But I'm ready for my justice.


I would be EXCEPTIONALLY shocked to see Spring Man, especially with the lack of a reveal at this point.
There is something special about this character.

 

[NintenRob]

I'm a bit confused by this debate, quite frankly.

There are clear favorites in ARMS, at least as far as public outcry is concerned.
That's Min Min and Twintelle.

Each is actually a perfect representation of East vs West as well (meaning that even as far back as the reveals, Hollywood Twintelle was beloved here, and Cultural Stereotype Min Min was had a public outcry of support in the East).

Spring Man would have been revealed if he were the character, because most people incorrectly think he is the obvious choice.
But Spring Man is not the poster child. There is no poster child. The game has generic characters on the front to explain the game, as its the first game.
The story does not actually favor Spring Man, who is more equivalent to Liu Kang in Mortal Kombat.
Character based games frequently rotate the covers (like POKEMON), and I can quickly see that the character would be unlikely to be Spring Man or Ribbon Girl.

Boiled down, quickly typed arguments I've made from two years ago.


But I'm ready for my justice.


I would be EXCEPTIONALLY shocked to see Spring Man, especially with the lack of a reveal at this point.
There is something special about this character.

You know Spring Man has his own copy in game right (Springtron)? Is also front and center of the character lineup in the credits. And that the upcoming comic will feature Spring Man as main character. Max Brass the champion is even hinted at as being a former Spring Man. And that the game art features Spring Man very heavily.

He's obviously the Ryu and poster child of the game.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm a bit confused by this debate, quite frankly.

There are clear favorites in ARMS, at least as far as public outcry is concerned.
That's Min Min and Twintelle.

Each is actually a perfect representation of East vs West as well (meaning that even as far back as the reveals, Hollywood Twintelle was beloved here, and Cultural Stereotype Min Min was had a public outcry of support in the East).

Spring Man would have been revealed if he were the character, because most people incorrectly think he is the obvious choice.
But Spring Man is not the poster child. There is no poster child. The game has generic characters on the front to explain the game, as its the first game.
The story does not actually favor Spring Man, who is more equivalent to Liu Kang in Mortal Kombat.
Character based games frequently rotate the covers (like POKEMON), and I can quickly see that the character would be unlikely to be Spring Man or Ribbon Girl.

Boiled down, quickly typed arguments I've made from two years ago.


But I'm ready for my justice.


I would be EXCEPTIONALLY shocked to see Spring Man, especially with the lack of a reveal at this point.
There is something special about this character.

Actually, there are several implications that Spring Man is the favourite to win the ARMS tournament canonically. He is the only one that fights with the specific goal of becoming champ instead of some ulterior motive, his abilities are very similar to the champ and he is very frequently depicted squaring off against Max as seen in the title screen for the first ARMS update and some artwork. Coyle herself even admits he is one of the best and went so far as build a robot version of him just because of that. And to top it all off, his traits of being a bit of a goof outside of fighting, eating tons of food and defying limits when pushed to the brink all scream "shonen protagonist".

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

So, word is that the Flipnote leak was fake all along, so we're right back at square one again.

 

[pupNapoleon]

You know Spring Man has his own copy in game right (Springtron)? Is also front and center of the character lineup in the credits. And that the upcoming comic will feature Spring Man as main character. Max Brass the champion is even hinted at as being a former Spring Man. And that the game art features Spring Man very heavily.

He's obviously the Ryu and poster child of the game.

Actually, there are several implications that Spring Man is the favourite to win the ARMS tournament canonically. He is the only one that fights with the specific goal of becoming champ instead of some ulterior motive, his abilities are very similar to the champ and he is very frequently depicted squaring off against Max as seen in the title screen for the first ARMS update and some artwork. Coyle herself even admits he is one of the best and went so far as build a robot version of him just because of that. And to top it all off, his traits of being a bit of a goof outside of fighting, eating tons of food and defying limits when pushed to the brink all scream "shonen protagonist".

I guess we will see if Spring Man is the Scorpion or the Liu Kang.

As of now, the information you've both given, suggests that Spring Man is the Liu Kang of the game. Not the Scorpion. And Scorpion, like Isabelle in Animal Crossing, or Pikachu in Pokemon, emerged over time. Games based on characters have the star emerge over time- because it is foolish for a company to force a character to be the star when others are more marketable. This is especially true for a game that is the first in the series.

Time will tell. (I'm still rooting for a rename as well- ARMED would be a much better title in my eyes).

 

[Guybrush20X6]

So, word is that the Flipnote leak was fake all along, so we're right back at square one again.

Where'd that come from?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Where'd that come from?

Three culprits, it seems:

Spoiler

 

[zferolie]

I haven't seen this posted here.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Seems like the flipnote leak was fake

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

For the record, Sabi had nothing to do with it, as they received the image too.

On the bright side, the Mario remasters rumors have yet to be proven fake...

 

[Guybrush20X6]

For the record, Sabi had nothing to do with it, as they received the image too.

On the bright side, the Mario remasters rumors have yet to be proven fake...

What about the Paper Mario rumors? Do they still stand? Because at this stage I want people who create fake Paper Mario rumors to be thrown in jail, like the wiseguys who cough on people in public these days.

 

[fogbadge]

For the record, Sabi had nothing to do with it, as they received the image too.

On the bright side, the Mario remasters rumors have yet to be proven fake...

didnt they come about because of the flipnote thing?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

didnt they come about because of the flipnote thing?

Nah, those are separate rumors outside of this prank. A coincidence, at the least.

What about the Paper Mario rumors? Do they still stand? Because at this stage I want people who create fake Paper Mario rumors to be thrown in jail, like the wiseguys who cough on people in public these days.

The PM rumors still seem to hold up for now, last I heard. If we hear anything, I suppose it would be around Summer, when the Direct Festival starts.

They might be extremely careful not to bring up any specific details, otherwise...

Spoiler

 

[fogbadge]

Nah, those are separate rumors outside of this prank. A coincidence, at the least.

ah just a separate prank

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

If it is a prank, why wait? This would be the perfect occasion to bamboozle and humiliate every outlet, reporter and insider on the planet.

I'll show the benefit the doubt for the time being, rather than immediately assume it's fake now and end up being proven wrong later, like with the March Direct rumors.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Happy April Fool's Day! These two clowns seem to be having fun!

https://beapeabear.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F164502328151

 

[GolisoPower]

You guys know how Byleth's Relics are tied to which direction you tilt the joystick?

How about they reuse that for the ARMS character and whatever signature ARMS they have? Like, if it's Twintelle, Up attacks would use the Parasol, Side attacks would use the Chilla, and Down attacks would use the Thunderbird. I mean, sure, they might not be limited to just their signature ARMS, but on the other hand, Joker was relegated to Arsene when he could have used other Personas...

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

You guys know how Byleth's Relics are tied to which direction you tilt the joystick?

How about they reuse that for the ARMS character and whatever signature ARMS they have? Like, if it's Twintelle, Up attacks would use the Parasol, Side attacks would use the Chilla, and Down attacks would use the Thunderbird. I mean, sure, they might not be limited to just their signature ARMS, but on the other hand, Joker was relegated to Arsene when he could have used other Personas...

I figure that for first-parties, they have looser standards, while third-parties are usually treated with more respect/simplicity.

As long as we get something more elaborate than "this fighter's gimmick is that they reach good".

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I figure that for first-parties, they have looser standards, while third-parties are usually treated with more respect/simplicity.

As long as we get something more elaborate than "this fighter's gimmick is that they reach good".

Personally I'm hoping you can still curve the ARMS mid flight but on a vertical plane rather than a horizontal one as in the games.