New Bayonetta Technique: Landing Aerial Slide

[Bowserboy3]

First and foremost, I wasn't sure where to post this, so sorry if any of you moderators feel this thread is pointless. My basis for creating this thread is to find out what this "technique" is, how to perform it, and find out it's applications, and hopefully make other more aware of it.

---

(this post explains how to perform the technique so far - http://smashboards.com/threads/bayo...-sliding-grab-technique.439654/#post-21342242)

I was watching a Grand Finals set today featuring Saj as Bayonetta, and was shocked when the commentator mentioned that Bayonetta can slide forward using her standing grab, after using her Nair. For those who don't know what I am on about, see below (should play at the right moment).

Continued in this post - http://smashboards.com/threads/bayo...-sliding-grab-technique.439654/#post-21342242

 

[Conn1496]

As far as I know, it's a thing a few characters can do, but Bayo and MK have the best ones. I made a thread all about "extending slides" and I tried to get a discussion going about it, but nothing really popped up.

There are probably a few more characters than the ones I mentioned in the thread, but it's only particularly noticeable with MK and Bayo anyway as far as I can tell and tends to happen when two slides overlap, usually from multiple walking crouches, though can be done on landing too since that gives you a little bit of an initial slide.

It's about time I saw this get some attention, so hopefully some pros will start looking into it and ways to perform it easier for each character, etc.

 

[Bowserboy3]

After some practice on the Wii U version (which I am more comfortable using), I think I understand this more.

I am coining it, The Landing Aerial Slide.

Basically, my understanding of it is this:

1. Start by performing a held Nair. I have got it to work off of a full hop and a short hop, but I find it more consistent in a short hop.
2. As you are in the air, make sure you have at least some forward momentum before you land. You can go back first if you like, but make sure you are moving forwards before you land. You have to keep hold of this forwards direction until after you perform the grab later on.
3. As you land with the held Nair, make sure you keep hold of the attack button (in my case, I use A to attack, so I keep hold of A), while still holding forward on your control stick.
4. This is where it gets hard to explain. After you land, while still holding forward on your control stick, release the attack button and press your grab button. If dtimed correctly, Bayonetta should slide forward using her standing grab. The reason why it gets hard to explain is because there's a specific timing. If you press grab too early, your slide will be minimal. If you press grab too late, you won't slide at all. A perfect slide is almost a quarter the length of FD/an Omega stage.

For step 4, you can also substitute a grab for shield, essentially sliding forward while in shield. To do this, instead of letting go of attack and instantly grabbing when you land, keep hold of attack when you press grab, and Bayonetta will shield instead. The timing is still the same, so it's a matter of button presses. It's worth noting that the maximum slide length for the shield variant is slightly shorter than the maximum slide length for the grab.

Here is some footage of the different variants, performed by myself:

So, how is this useful, and how can it be used? Well, the main boon I take from this is that it allows Bayonetta to essentially perform a longer ranged, less laggy "dash grab" (remember, she is doing her standing grab in this) after using her Nair. This is good too keep in mind because Nair is one of Bayonetta's best tools in the neutral game.

Alternatively, she can use the sliding shield variant to mix up her spacing safely upon landing with Nair. She can use this to throw off the opponent's spacing, or safely push Bayonetta into an area the opponent won't expect.

UPDATE: Fox can also slide into his grab after a SH-AC Uair (but not his shield) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMUFaReN3KQ

Let's get some discussion on this!

 

[Streethawk57]

After some practice on the Wii U version (which I am more comfortable using), I think I understand this more.

I am coining it, The Landing Aerial Slide.

Basically, my understanding of it is this:

1. Start by performing a held Nair. I have got it to work off of a full hop and a short hop, but I find it more consistent in a short hop.
2. As you are in the air, make sure you have at least some forward momentum before you land. You can go back first if you like, but make sure you are moving forwards before you land. You have to keep hold of this forwards direction until after you perform the grab later on.
3. As you land with the held Nair, make sure you keep hold of the attack button (in my case, I use A to attack, so I keep hold of A), while still holding forward on your control stick.
4. This is where it gets hard to explain. After you land, while still holding forward on your control stick, release the attack button and press your grab button. If dtimed correctly, Bayonetta should slide forward using her standing grab. The reason why it gets hard to explain is because there's a specific timing. If you press grab too early, your slide will be minimal. If you press grab too late, you won't slide at all. A perfect slide is almost a quarter the length of FD/an Omega stage.

For step 4, you can also substitute a grab for shield, essentially sliding forward while in shield. To do this, instead of letting go of attack and instantly grabbing when you land, keep hold of attack when you press grab, and Bayonetta will shield instead. The timing is still the same, so it's a matter of button presses. It's worth noting that the maximum slide length for the shield variant is slightly shorter than the maximum slide length for the grab.

Here is some footage of the different variants, performed by myself:

So, how is this useful, and how can it be used? Well, the main boon I take from this is that it allows Bayonetta to essentially perform a longer ranged, less laggy "dash grab" (remember, she is doing her standing grab in this) after using her Nair. This is good too keep in mind because Nair is one of Bayonetta's best tools in the neutral game.

Alternatively, she can use the sliding shield variant to mix up her spacing safely upon landing with Nair. She can use this to throw off the opponent's spacing, or safely push Bayonetta into an area the opponent won't expect.

UPDATE: Fox can also slide into his grab after a SH-AC Uair (but not his shield) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMUFaReN3KQ

Let's get some discussion on this!

If you hold nair in one direction, can the grab be reversed in the opposite direction?

 

[ぱみゅ]

If it also makes a shield come out, then we can implement sliding OOS Witch Twist.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well this is interesting..

I looked into this briefly to better understand the mechanics behind it, and I believe all that matters here is that the character walks (not pivot then walk and not dash) out of a specific amount of landing lag (specific to that character) with some momentum already carrying them in the direction they want to walk, then doing a specific action (that allows for sliding e.g. grab or shield) on a specific frame of the walk (different timing gives different length slides).

So with Fox for example, you don't need to do an aerial at all; the aerial just makes it so that he gets hard landing lag out of a SH (even when the aerial autocancels, so SH Uair and SH Bair will both work just fine). Otherwise, an empty FH (just for example) will also work just fine. Once you've guaranteed the hard landing lag and you've landed with momentum carrying you forward etc, it's all about the timing of (in this case) the grab. To give you an idea, grabbing on the first two frames of the walk didn't appear to have any real effect. Then from frame 3 of the walk Fox would get a notable extra slide, increasingly more notable with every frame, with frame 7 being the longest, and frame 8 taking it back to no slide.
[Also the shield slide thing works for Fox too.. just less pronounced than the grab slide.]

Bayo's work's slightly differently. You can't do it out of hard landing lag, instead it needs to be done out of a certain amount of aerial landing lag, with the Nair's 10 frames of landing lag being pretty much optimal. So e.g. you can just Nair at around the peak of a SH so that you land with Nair without having to hold A or anything; jut so long as you get the 10 frames of landing lag which can of course be made easier in some instances by holding A. Grabbing on frame 3 of the walk will give you a small slide, grabbing on frame 4 of the walk will give you a large slide, etc up to frame 7 giving the longest slide, while grabbing on frame 8 of the walk will result in no slide. Because of the differences in landing lags between Fox and Bayo in the two examples as indicated by the OP, obviously the execution timing for the grab after landing will differ even though they have the same frame requirements for interrupting their walk.

The difference between the two had me curious though. Why was it that Fox could use hard landing lag whereas Bayo required aerial landing lag?

I tested all of Bayo's aerials. On top of landing with Nair, it works for landing with Bair, Uair and Fair too, but to a lesser extent. With landing in Fair's landing lag, you need to grab on either frame 6 or 7 of the walk, otherwise it won't let you slide at all. And this makes sense I guess because you're stuck in landing lag for longer. The same seems to apply to Bair and Uair; it works, but you just have a slightly smaller window to grab in.

I believe that there must be a certain sweet-spot amount of lag which will differ for each character (that is, each character this actually applies to). Just enough lag to cause the walk to start up faster, but not too much so as to overlap too much with the window in which you can cancel the walk to get the slide.

Everyone should probably look into their own characters to see if they can find a sweet-spot amount of lag that is compatible with their walk. [Use frame skipping techniques as seen in the labbing thread in my signature to help you test accurately.]

 

[Bowserboy3]

Seeing as it's looking more and more likely that it's not just Bayonetta exclusive (for example, its now also been discovered Kirby has a grab slide), I think I'll open a new thread regarding this elsewhere, in either the General Discussion or the Competitive Discussion... which do you think is best Moderators? I want to make sure I put it in the right place.

I'm thinking the Competitive Discussion would be fine. If not, let me know.

 

[Fenny]

Yeah, I posted this in the video thread a few days ago. It works with BA Uair as well, and you can slide into shield as well, albeit with less distance.

 

[Razorhead]

Hey, can this be performed on the 3ds version?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Hey, can this be performed on the 3ds version?

I have got it to work on the 3DS version. Just get the timing down.

 

[Conn1496]

Hey, can this be performed on the 3ds version?

Yeah, in the thread I linked to higher up I got a lot of results with different characters all on 3DS, so you might want to give it a little look.

Honestly, try a walking crouch slide as Meta Knight, it's the easiest to do to produce an extended slide from and will get you a noticeable distance when you get the timing down. So will Bayo's, it's just a little harder to do in my experience.

The input in general is just an interrupted walking step during/from a slide. The slide can be caused by anything, including airs and even a running shield, but a simple Walk > Crouch (Initial slide) > Walk > Crouch (Long slide) will do. MK can also Down Smash to cause the extended slide which is helpful as you won't accidentally interrupt it as it's happening if you want to see the confirmation, so Slide > Walk > D-Smash is good for practice too just because it's more blatant when it works.

Some characters might be restricted to doing long slides in certain ways and I didn't really think of it before so I might revisit the thread and start gathering info on it.

However, I did have extra info I wanted to post, so it's not too awful.

In terms of standgrab during a slide, grabs count as an interrupt for the step. That's why this works for Bayo coming from N-air, and I'm pretty sure it could work for any other character who can long slide too. I tested it as MK and similar things happened when I tested Bayo, so add artificially extending grab range to the list of things this is useful for.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Seeing as it's looking more and more likely that it's not just Bayonetta exclusive (for example, its now also been discovered Kirby has a grab slide), I think I'll open a new thread regarding this elsewhere, in either the General Discussion or the Competitive Discussion... which do you think is best Moderators? I want to make sure I put it in the right place.

I'm thinking the Competitive Discussion would be fine. If not, let me know.

There is one thread for Mechanics and Techniques as a whole in the Competitive Board, that would be ideal place.

 

[Flamegeyser]

After some practice on the Wii U version (which I am more comfortable using), I think I understand this more.

I am coining it, The Landing Aerial Slide.

Basically, my understanding of it is this:

1. Start by performing a held Nair. I have got it to work off of a full hop and a short hop, but I find it more consistent in a short hop.
2. As you are in the air, make sure you have at least some forward momentum before you land. You can go back first if you like, but make sure you are moving forwards before you land. You have to keep hold of this forwards direction until after you perform the grab later on.
3. As you land with the held Nair, make sure you keep hold of the attack button (in my case, I use A to attack, so I keep hold of A), while still holding forward on your control stick.
4. This is where it gets hard to explain. After you land, while still holding forward on your control stick, release the attack button and press your grab button. If dtimed correctly, Bayonetta should slide forward using her standing grab. The reason why it gets hard to explain is because there's a specific timing. If you press grab too early, your slide will be minimal. If you press grab too late, you won't slide at all. A perfect slide is almost a quarter the length of FD/an Omega stage.

For step 4, you can also substitute a grab for shield, essentially sliding forward while in shield. To do this, instead of letting go of attack and instantly grabbing when you land, keep hold of attack when you press grab, and Bayonetta will shield instead. The timing is still the same, so it's a matter of button presses. It's worth noting that the maximum slide length for the shield variant is slightly shorter than the maximum slide length for the grab.

Here is some footage of the different variants, performed by myself:

So, how is this useful, and how can it be used? Well, the main boon I take from this is that it allows Bayonetta to essentially perform a longer ranged, less laggy "dash grab" (remember, she is doing her standing grab in this) after using her Nair. This is good too keep in mind because Nair is one of Bayonetta's best tools in the neutral game.

Alternatively, she can use the sliding shield variant to mix up her spacing safely upon landing with Nair. She can use this to throw off the opponent's spacing, or safely push Bayonetta into an area the opponent won't expect.

UPDATE: Fox can also slide into his grab after a SH-AC Uair (but not his shield) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMUFaReN3KQ

Let's get some discussion on this!

Yeah, you got it right, although I think it's already been coined the HAL slide or something.

Anyways the prime thing you missed is that every aerial except dair and fair can do this, you just have to hold forward immediately after inputting the aerial and get the timing right. Regular nair is the best, since it's safe on shield, leading to a mixup of whether or not you're gonna grab. Uair is hard and fairly useless, as is BA uair for the most part, and bair can only do it the opposite direction of the bair.

So basically, do it with nair unless you have some new setup or something, since BA nair is terrible on shield and less meaty to hit with.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Anyways the prime thing you missed is that every aerial except dair and fair can do this, you just have to hold forward immediately after inputting the aerial and get the timing right. Regular nair is the best, since it's safe on shield, leading to a mixup of whether or not you're gonna grab. Uair is hard and fairly useless, as is BA uair for the most part, and bair can only do it the opposite direction of the bair.

In my above post I stated that it works with Bayo for every aerial except Dair.. (among other important things)
But I guess everyone just ignored me. Which is fine btw.
Fair works, it just has a tighter window.

 

[Flamegeyser]

In my above post I stated that it works with Bayo for every aerial except Dair.. (among other important things)
But I guess everyone just ignored me. Which is fine btw.
Fair works, it just has a tighter window.

Hahah, sorry, I did try reading your post, but I missed the paragraph where you said that.
Anyways, getting it to work on Fair is a 2 frame window, huh? Well that's stupid, but if you can do it, the applications are incredible.

 

[ElMoro995]

Hahah, sorry, I did try reading your post, but I missed the paragraph where you said that.
Anyways, getting it to work on Fair is a 2 frame window, huh? Well that's stupid, but if you can do it, the applications are incredible.

Why should we prefer doing this tech with fair instead of nair? You can already followup from fair without this, and it's risky too if shielded because of 14f of landing lag

 

[Zalezus]

I like BA Nair for this due to being able to capitalize on shied stun and good angles from the bullet arts (something other HAL sliders won't have) to make a more solid spacing/follow up call.

Fair, Uair, and Bair may have their uses with their shorter slide but I think this tech is a lot better suited with Nair.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Why should we prefer doing this tech with fair instead of nair? You can already followup from fair without this, and it's risky too if shielded because of 14f of landing lag

Well it's a guaranteed grab as far as I can tell, but I didn't mean to imply that it's better than the totally safe nair.

I like BA Nair for this due to being able to capitalize on shied stun and good angles from the bullet arts (something other HAL sliders won't have) to make a more solid spacing/follow up call.

Fair, Uair, and Bair may have their uses with their shorter slide but I think this tech is a lot better suited with Nair.

I thought only fair had the shorter slide? Anyways, regular nair is probably the best thanks to it being safe on shield.

 

[Lakuto]

I like BA Nair for this due to being able to capitalize on shied stun and good angles from the bullet arts (something other HAL sliders won't have) to make a more solid spacing/follow up call.

Fair, Uair, and Bair may have their uses with their shorter slide but I think this tech is a lot better suited with Nair.

Talking about using this after a Nair on shield: wouldn't a regular dash grab come out faster than a slinding grab after a spaced Nair on shield? Or maybe I'm just underestimating Nair's range. It may also depends on the slide of characters on shield (cf Luigi). This could be hard to test really (some frame by frame video editing work). Hoping someone could clear that out.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Talking about using this after a Nair on shield: wouldn't a regular dash grab come out faster than a slinding grab after a spaced Nair on shield? Or maybe I'm just underestimating Nair's range. It may also depends on the slide of characters on shield (cf Luigi). This could be hard to test really (some frame by frame video editing work). Hoping someone could clear that out.

Our dash grab is really bad. Even if it could reach shield, it doesn't really slide all that far either. This makes followups more powerful, and makes the threat of getting grabbed more noticeable, to the point where it should be a solid shield mixup.

 

[Zalezus]

I thought only fair had the shorter slide? Anyways, regular nair is probably the best thanks to it being safe on shield.

I believe that there must be a certain sweet-spot amount of lag which will differ for each character (that is, each character this actually applies to). Just enough lag to cause the walk to start up faster, but not too much so as to overlap too much with the window in which you can cancel the walk to get the slide.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the length is due to this sweet spot frame timing in relation to the nature of whatever carries your momentum forward. Nair has the shortest amount of landing lag at 10 frames. Based on Fox Is Openly Deceptive's frame data (for Bayo at least) you carry momentum on the ground accelerating up to but not including the 18th frame after landing from the air. The other aerials have more landing lag and thus likely tighter windows/less time one is able to use walk speed in addition to your aerial horizontal momentum. At 14 frames of landing lag, Fair would theoretically have the smallest window to cancel the walk and the least available time to walking forward.

According to the above, Fox carries momentum up to but not including the 12th frame after landing. I know for sure that at least Fox and Shiek can both do some kind of slide like this without needing an aerial and they both use similar requirements for landing lag (hard landing after SH Aerial or the like.) I can't help the feeling that this is something relating to ground traction and deceleration of force because Fox and Shiek have the same traction value, while Bayo has lower traction.

Maybe that's a clue for anyone else checking on this for other characters:

Up to 11 frames of carried momentum after landing for a traction value of .06
Up to 17 frames of carried momentum after landing for a traction value of .055

 

[Patriarachnid]

From what I can tell, this technique is literally just a Step Dash.

Which means we can do that long slide not only after landing with aerials, but also after dropping shield, and even just out of nowhere on the ground with a weird (and pretty difficult) movement of the control stick.

Also, we can slide across the stage with not only grab, but also crouch and shield (the former can lead into tilts or whatever, and the latter can be followed up with another freakin' crouch or grab slide).

And if that wasn't enough, we can even do the slide in any direction we want. ie, land with held nair, followed by a slide grab aimed behind us.

I've been labbing out this tech for most of the day, and while it takes some time to get the hang of, I think it can be a huge boon for Bayo's neutral game. Even just the ability to quickly approach with her super-low crouch, and follow it up with her extremely good tilts, has the potential to be game-changing.

 

[Patriarachnid]

Also, the stage's friction affects how far Bayo can slide. Specifically, grass terrain shortens slide distance.

http://smashboards.com/threads/friction-and-omegas-its-not-dacus.379314/

For a good example of this, Omega Great Cave Offensive has grass terrain on one side, and normal terrain on the other, and the step dash/landing slide is much easier to perform on the latter than the former.

 

[Fenny]

Also, the stage's friction affects how far Bayo can slide. Specifically, grass terrain shortens slide distance.

http://smashboards.com/threads/friction-and-omegas-its-not-dacus.379314/

For a good example of this, Omega Great Cave Offensive has grass terrain on one side, and normal terrain on the other, and the step dash/landing slide is much easier to perform on the latter than the former.

I THOUGHT THIS WAS JUST ME LMAO

On Omega Tortimer's Island on the 3DS I found it practically impossible to do it in any form, but then when I changed to FD Bayo slid as far as she usually does.