New Bayonetta Tech: Lag Cancelling

[Fenny]

I posted it in the Tech thread, but I thought I'd make a thread about it here just to increase exposure, as this could potentially be incredibly useful.

Bayonetta has a lot of aerial mobility thanks to her specials, which allow her to burst in literally 5 different directions while in the air. However, with each special used while airborne, the amount of lag she suffers when she lands increases, which makes getting punished more of a threat if the opponent gets out of your combos and lands near you as you recover. Because of this, you always have to be careful not to overextend, or else you might find yourself with a buttload of lag in a life-or-death situation.

However, just recently, Badr from the Netherlands made public knowledge a way for Bayo to circumvent her landing lag after multiple aerial specials.

By executing Bayo's Up B or Side B on the exact frames that she lands, the game registers the move as its grounded version - this cancels out the lag accumulated from her air shenanigans and thereby acts as though she's only used one Up B (in the case of WTwist) or she's done nothing but Heel Slide (in the case of Side B).

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is very helpful, as it not only mitigates the risk of using multiple specials upon landing, but adds another layer to Bayo's already stellar punish game, especially with her lag cancelled Side B. Those who try to punish her can find themselves on the receiving end, while those who slip out of the beginning of her combos can find themselves being kicked into another one.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This tech is very difficult to pull off, as it requires frame perfect execution. If you input the command too early, you'll just use the aerial version of her special and end up landing with even more lag than planned. Too late, and you just land regularly, with any lag you've accumulated. On top of that, you must have an extra side B or up B stored away to do it. For example, if you've used both of your ABKs in the air, you can't use Heel Slide to cancel your lag. This tech encourages you to mix up your punish game outside of her bread and butter combos, but I think that if it's gotten to grips with, it would do Bayo wonders.

 

[CreamyFatone]

As jaw-droppingly awesome as this is, could you be more specific about what you mean by the "exact frames" that she lands? Is it the frame that she lands, or is it the first 3 frames or so of when she lands?

This looks like the same mechanic that Bowser has when he cancels his lag with a special move out of autocanceled aerials.

 

[Fenny]

As jaw-droppingly awesome as this is, could you be more specific about what you mean by the "exact frames" that she lands? Is it the frame that she lands, or is it the first 3 frames or so of when she lands?

This looks like the same mechanic that Bowser has when he cancels his lag with a special move out of autocanceled aerials.

Literally the frame she lands. No sooner and no earlier.

You basically don't want to see her go into her landing animation. The ways of knowing you've gotten it are:

1) If you cancel via WTwist, dust will rise up from around her just like it does if you use it on the ground

2) If you cancel via Side B, you Heel Slide immediately instead of ABKing upwards.

 

[Masque]

This looks so hype! Do you have to use an autocanceled aerial (as seen in the video), or can you simply use a properly timed special?
(Also, you have the best Smash 4 mains, Fenny!)

 

[CreamyFatone]

Literally the frame she lands. No sooner and no earlier.

You basically don't want to see her go into her landing animation. The ways of knowing you've gotten it are:

1) If you cancel via WTwist, dust will rise up from around her just like it does if you use it on the ground

2) If you cancel via Side B, you Heel Slide immediately instead of ABKing upwards.

So, is the input buffered out of an aerial or is it literally frame perfect execution?

 

[Fenny]

This looks so hype! Do you have to use an autocanceled aerial (as seen in the video), or can you simply use a properly timed special?
(Also, you have the best Smash 4 mains, Fenny!)

So, is the input buffered out of an aerial or is it literally frame perfect execution?

Buffer it out of an aerial like Badr did. I HAVE done so frame perfect before, but it was pretty lucky and it's probably impossible to do consistently unless you're playing on like 1/4 speed or something lol


And I know Masked Man :3

 

[Masque]

Buffer it out of an aerial like Badr did. I HAVE done so frame perfect before, but it was pretty lucky and it's probably impossible to do consistently unless you're playing on like 1/4 speed or something lol

And I know Masked Man :3

Thanks for the tip! I'll start labbing and see how it goes.

Also, not only do you have the best Smash 4 mains, but you also have the best Ace Attorney character as your avatar.

 

[DeadLuckChris]

This is amazing

 

[ElMoro995]

Does using an aerial before the LC-special help us in any way? I don't understand why he does an aerial every time before landing in the video

 

[Zalezus]

Does using an aerial before the LC-special help us in any way? I don't understand why he does an aerial every time before landing in the video

Read the above; it's much easier to buffer frame perfect moves out of ideal FAFs than it is to input them frame perfectly, this ain't melee.

 

[ElMoro995]

Read the above; it's much easier to buffer frame perfect moves out of ideal FAFs than it is to input them frame perfectly, this ain't melee.

I'm not sure I've understood, so correct me if I'm wrong: according to kuroganehammer, besides of uair, her aerial's autocancel frames are 1 frame earlier than her FAF, so by doing an aerial before the LC-special we have 2 frame instead of 1? And with Uair (FAF 30, AC 26) we have 5 frames instead of 1?

 

[Lakuto]

At this point, listing situation when the buffering of the special moves is key (because frame perfect lag cancel seems grim for now).

Someone mentioned Wtw > abk >Bair > Heel Silde. It's possible but buffering the Heel Slide out off Bair will give you a second abk.
Wtw > abk > Nair > Heel Slide works every time if you buffer every move though.

 

[Fenny]

【再うｐ】B技使用後の着地硬直はアイテム投げには影響しないようです pic.twitter.com/0daWdkJiSV

— ドルソン (@dolson_44) August 3, 2016

Apparently she can lag cancel with items now?

 

[Fenny]

At this point, listing situation when the buffering of the special moves is key (because frame perfect lag cancel seems grim for now).

Someone mentioned Wtw > abk >Bair > Heel Silde. It's possible but buffering the Heel Slide out off Bair will give you a second abk.
Wtw > abk > Nair > Heel Slide works every time if you buffer every move though.

The thing with that is there are certain characters where it works with Bair but not with Nair due to the falling speed or weight. Like you can WTw > ABK > Bair Luigi but not Nair. It works against characters like Cloud, but you have to slightly fade back after the Nair connects so you can connect with the LC-Heel Slide. Then there's Sheik, whose falling speed and weight are ideal for you to only worry about plugging in the commands.

 

[ElMoro995]

If you do a dabk on shield and then uair with correct timing (depending on which part of the shield you hit), you can get a LC heel slide

 

[FinTheCombos]

I posted it in the Tech thread, but I thought I'd make a thread about it here just to increase exposure, as this could potentially be incredibly useful.

Bayonetta has a lot of aerial mobility thanks to her specials, which allow her to burst in literally 5 different directions while in the air. However, with each special used while airborne, the amount of lag she suffers when she lands increases, which makes getting punished more of a threat if the opponent gets out of your combos and lands near you as you recover. Because of this, you always have to be careful not to overextend, or else you might find yourself with a buttload of lag in a life-or-death situation.

However, just recently, Badr from the Netherlands made public knowledge a way for Bayo to circumvent her landing lag after multiple aerial specials.

By executing Bayo's Up B or Side B on the exact frames that she lands, the game registers the move as its grounded version - this cancels out the lag accumulated from her air shenanigans and thereby acts as though she's only used one Up B (in the case of WTwist) or she's done nothing but Heel Slide (in the case of Side B).

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is very helpful, as it not only mitigates the risk of using multiple specials upon landing, but adds another layer to Bayo's already stellar punish game, especially with her lag cancelled Side B. Those who try to punish her can find themselves on the receiving end, while those who slip out of the beginning of her combos can find themselves being kicked into another one.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This tech is very difficult to pull off, as it requires frame perfect execution. If you input the command too early, you'll just use the aerial version of her special and end up landing with even more lag than planned. Too late, and you just land regularly, with any lag you've accumulated. On top of that, you must have an extra side B or up B stored away to do it. For example, if you've used both of your ABKs in the air, you can't use Heel Slide to cancel your lag. This tech encourages you to mix up your punish game outside of her bread and butter combos, but I think that if it's gotten to grips with, it would do Bayo wonders.

Why did they change her normal specials in 1.1.6 I knew her dive kick was broken asf but everyone knows how to di out of her up a now

 

[Fenny]

Why did they change her normal specials in 1.1.6 I knew her dive kick was broken asf but everyone knows how to di out of her up a now

Unless you use her ol' faithful pre-patch damage rackers routinely (in which case you can see it coming), DI-ing out of her Up B is easier said than done. If you mix it up with her aerials, tilts and Side B or use it as an out-of-shield punish then it becomes far harder to DI out of it effectively, especially if the Bayo player is good at reading and adapting to how the opponent DIs. For example, I often have people DI-ing up out of her Up B, only for me to read that and just Up B again to catch them.

And the amount of lag has always been the same even pre-patch so I don't get where you were getting at with that reply since it has nothing to do with this lmao

 

[FinTheCombos]

Unless you use her ol' faithful pre-patch damage rackers routinely (in which case you can see it coming), DI-ing out of her Up B is easier said than done. If you mix it up with her aerials, tilts and Side B or use it as an out-of-shield punish then it becomes far harder to DI out of it effectively, especially if the Bayo player is good at reading and adapting to how the opponent DIs. For example, I often have people DI-ing up out of her Up B, only for me to read that and just Up B again to catch them.

And the amount of lag has always been the same even pre-patch so I don't get where you were getting at with that reply since it has nothing to do with this lmao

She's just not as fancy like I always like to land fairs after witch twist but at kill percents you can't do the anymore nor land a up a its so easy to di up away now.i really don't like killing with a witch time smash attack it seems cheap.i just want her old witch twist back and normal abk

 

[Fenny]

She's just not as fancy

She's fancier if you actually explore what she can chain together.

Before she started fancy, but that fanciness wears off when it's the only thing you really need to lean on to win.

like I always like to land fairs after witch twist but at kill percents you can't do the anymore

Yes you can?

I've killed people from 60% doing a Fair1 after her first WTw and chaining it into an ABK > WTw2 > ABK > Uair. Mix it up enough and it's easier said than done to DI out of it when you're near the upper blast zone and you're too flustered to DI effectively. Not to mention if they DI up near the upper blast zone they'll probably kill themselves anyway.

nor land a up a its so easy to di up away now.i really don't like killing with a witch time smash attack it seems cheap.i just want her old witch twist back and normal abk

How can you say WT > Smash attack feels cheap when it was Bayo's old WTw and ABK that made her admittedly jank personified pre-patch rofl

 

[FinTheCombos]

She's fancier if you actually explore what she can chain together.

Before she started fancy, but that fanciness wears off when it's the only thing you really need to lean on to win.



Yes you can?

I've killed people from 60% doing a Fair1 after her first WTw and chaining it into an ABK > WTw2 > ABK > Uair. Mix it up enough and it's easier said than done to DI out of it when you're near the upper blast zone and you're too flustered to DI effectively. Not to mention if they DI up near the upper blast zone they'll probably kill themselves anyway.



How can you say WT > Smash attack feels cheap when it was Bayo's old WTw and ABK that made her admittedly jank personified pre-patch rofl

Maybe cause the thing that made her broken was her downward abk not her witch twist or normal abk

 

[Zalezus]

I'm not sure I've understood, so correct me if I'm wrong: according to kuroganehammer, besides of uair, her aerial's autocancel frames are 1 frame earlier than her FAF, so by doing an aerial before the LC-special we have 2 frame instead of 1? And with Uair (FAF 30, AC 26) we have 5 frames instead of 1?

To perform the LC special it seems you need to input the special on the EXACT frame of landing. "No sooner, no later"

And to be clear, auto-canceling a move only takes away from it's normal landing lag. To act out of it immediately or determine the earliest frame you can buffer another attack you refer to FAF, "First actionable frame" (or IASA "interruptible as soon as", why is this term different?) If the AC frame is sooner than your FAF, you won't be able to act until either you land with hard landing or you reach that first actionable frame. If you auto-cancel, this tech fails and you suffer Bayo's special landing lag.

EX. I'll refer to the first video where Badr does an interrupted FH(?) > WTw and then falls with Fair 1.

Using the context clues, it takes Bayo 27 frames to touch the ground after the initial (and unspecified distance/air time) interrupted FH > WTw. Fair 1 gives her a perfect window with which to have her FAF at the same time that she lands. Ditto applies to (unspecified distance/air time) hop into ABK giving Uair the 30 frames it needs to have that same situation happen. Funny thing, that huh? If your timing is off, your FAF occurs ever so slightly before landing and you get the aerial version of the special.

It's easier to dissect from the second video that WTw > (slight pause/unbuffered) ABK takes somewhere right around the 30 frames Bair need to have your FAF.

This tech really seems to be hinged on how long it takes her to touch the ground and aligning that with aerials that set up this literally 1-frame perfect window...either that or manually plugging in the special with the same kind of accuracy

EDIT: I need TAS for this game...

 

[Fenny]

Maybe cause the thing that made her broken was her downward abk not her witch twist or normal abk

Her Witch Twist couldn't be reliably SDI'd out of at all unless you were ESAM or were a good control stick smasher. Having her normal ABK back would be cool though lol, thought you were talking about her dABK, which was like the best move in the game pre-patch rofl

 

[FinTheCombos]

Her Witch Twist couldn't be reliably SDI'd out of at all unless you were ESAM or were a good control stick smasher. Having her normal ABK back would be cool though lol, thought you were talking about her dABK, which was like the best move in the game pre-patch rofl

Yea her downwards abk was broken asf but some characters are amune to Bayonetta's witch twist and normal abk I hope they change it back

 

[ElMoro995]

To perform the LC special it seems you need to input the special on the EXACT frame of landing. "No sooner, no later"

And to be clear, auto-canceling a move only takes away from it's normal landing lag. To act out of it immediately or determine the earliest frame you can buffer another attack you refer to FAF, "First actionable frame" (or IASA "interruptible as soon as", why is this term different?) If the AC frame is sooner than your FAF, you won't be able to act until either you land with hard landing or you reach that first actionable frame. If you auto-cancel, this tech fails and you suffer Bayo's special landing lag.

EX. I'll refer to the first video where Badr does an interrupted FH(?) > WTw and then falls with Fair 1.

Using the context clues, it takes Bayo 27 frames to touch the ground after the initial (and unspecified distance/air time) interrupted FH > WTw. Fair 1 gives her a perfect window with which to have her FAF at the same time that she lands. Ditto applies to (unspecified distance/air time) hop into ABK giving Uair the 30 frames it needs to have that same situation happen. Funny thing, that huh? If your timing is off, your FAF occurs ever so slightly before landing and you get the aerial version of the special.

It's easier to dissect from the second video that WTw > (slight pause/unbuffered) ABK takes somewhere right around the 30 frames Bair need to have your FAF.

This tech really seems to be hinged on how long it takes her to touch the ground and aligning that with aerials that set up this literally 1-frame perfect window...either that or manually plugging in the special with the same kind of accuracy

EDIT: I need TAS for this game...

So if your aerial has to be frame perfect in order to have its FAF matching the 1st landing frame, what's the point of doing the aerial? WT->abk->nair->LCsideb seems to be the only sequence of moves which needs an aerial before landing to be done consistently imho, because if you buffer every move you always do a LC sideb

 

[Zalezus]

So if your aerial has to be frame perfect in order to have its FAF matching the 1st landing frame, what's the point of doing the aerial? WT->abk->nair->LCsideb seems to be the only sequence of moves which needs an aerial before landing to be done consistently imho, because if you buffer every move you always do a LC sideb

So that you don't have to do a frame perfect landing special. It's really six of one and half of dozen of the other: buffering frees you from the responsibility of being on top of your execution outside of 10 frames, which is pretty generous as far as frame perfect technique goes.

While I will say that the combo you mentioned is a great go-to, I wouldn't let that let me or hopefully anyone else shirk the great opportunity it will be to abuse this tech to every possible end.

 

[Fenny]

So that you don't have to do a frame perfect landing special. It's really six of one and half of dozen of the other: buffering frees you from the responsibility of being on top of your execution outside of 10 frames, which is pretty generous as far as frame perfect technique goes.

While I will say that the combo you mentioned is a great go-to, I wouldn't let that let me or hopefully anyone else shirk the great opportunity it will be to abuse this tech to every possible end.

Indeed. I'd like this to be used not just as a combo extender but also as a way of pretty much negating the punishment Bayo should face for milking out a few specials.

 

[AkiraGr]

Amazing find and just in time! I am hitting the lab again.Thanks Fenny I was really struggling with hard punishes from landing lag from aerial special if I couldn't cancel with and edge grab. Fast character having a blast after the nerf. Now this tech opens up a new level for the meta.