Ness vs. Yoshi (0 or -1?)

[Eagleye893]

I want some clarification as to why Yoshi goes even with Ness and doesn't beat Ness slightly.

My arguments:

GR > Usmash is good for killing and damage-racking,
Yoshi has some great ability to cover the ground when Ness needs to land.
Eggs win and can be directed well to disrupt MANY approaches and/or defensive tactics (if the Yoshi knows just where to put them, it's a ***** to get around)
Has an air-grab with Neutral B, which is well-ranged.
Harder to kill than most characters. Yoshi has odd, secret weightiness to him.

 

[Uffe]

GR > Usmash is good for killing and damage-racking.
If Yoshi is using this as an attack more than a kill move, then you have nothing to worry about since his u-smash would be greatly staled. And if Yoshi is using this as a way of racking up damage, then it should become obvious to see it coming. You've got a ranged attack like PK Fire. Yoshi CANNOT Out of Shield his attacks. So if he blocks it, what is he going to do?

My suggestion against this attack would be to use dair. And not a short-hopped dair, either. You want to avoid getting grabbed.

Yoshi has some great ability to cover the ground when Ness needs to land.
What do you mean by this? Egg Barrage? U-smash? What?

Eggs win and can be directed well to disrupt MANY approaches and/or defensive tactics (if the Yoshi knows just where to put them, it's a ***** to get around)
If you're in the air, then yes, you're pretty much disrupted. Usually a good Yoshi will throw eggs from the edge, avoiding any damage from you in any way possible. Doing so on land will make him an easier target more than you yourself are one.

Has an air-grab with Neutral B, which is well-ranged.
Samus, Link and Toon Link have a zair. Dodge it. Unlike the three characters mentioned, Yoshi is unable to do it as quickly.

Harder to kill than most characters. Yoshi has odd, secret weightiness to him.
Snake is much more difficult to kill than Yoshi. If you're hoping to land a dair on Yoshi while he's recovering, good luck with that. You have to bait him to do something else in order to really get him with an aerial. Tailwhipping with PK Thunder or using PK Flash are useful if Yoshi is low enough. Well, PK Thunder can be used whenever, but PK Flash is different.

 

[Yink]

I want some clarification as to why Yoshi goes even with Ness and doesn't beat Ness slightly.

My arguments:

GR > Usmash is good for killing and damage-racking,

It should be good for giving damage ONLY. If you're getting killed by this move you need to learn how to space better to not get grabbed, or learn to DI better. One of my best friends is a good Yoshi, and I beat him all the time and rarely die to an usmash or a grab release in general.

Yoshi has some great ability to cover the ground when Ness needs to land.

Ness does the exact same thing to Yoshi though. Elaborate on your thoughts. By covering I'm assuming you mean grabbing Ness...? What do you mean Eagle? Besides that, it's true that it's the other way around. Once you go into your argument better, I shall explain my own. I'd like to give you a chance first.

Eggs win and can be directed well to disrupt MANY approaches and/or defensive tactics (if the Yoshi knows just where to put them, it's a ***** to get around)

And they're slow, and have a lot of ending lag. Abuse it or reflect it. Just perfect shield the eggs and grab him. I do it all the time. If he's too far away, just move back.

Has an air-grab with Neutral B, which is well-ranged.

You can see this coming, so once again, space better or bait it and punish.

Harder to kill than most characters. Yoshi has odd, secret weightiness to him.

He's not THAT hard to kill. He's heavy, but he's not harder to kill than Snake. Don't go for obvious gimps, because it's not THAT easy to gimp a good Yoshi. Just plan your moveset accordingly. All of Ness' aerials minus fair can be used as a kill move. I use uair a lot, bair too.

My thoughts are in red, based from both playing Yoshi competitively and having someone to play that uses him like, every time I see him lol.

 

[Eagleye893]

bleehhhhhhh!!! I fail at describing things. Yink's right, so I'll elaborate on what I mean.

All of my experience playing Yoshi mains basically comes from playing HadesBlades, b/c Wifi Yoshi's are much different and Hades was the first LEGIT yoshi I've ever played.


I don't know why I included "Kill Move" in that. I think I was thinking about the UAir or something, but that still doesn't kill AS early as it could.
YES! GR > USMASH WAS USED AGAINST ME TO RACK A TON OF DAMAGE! It gets like 17% or more each time. It's so frustrating! >.< I probably should've gotten those matches recorded so I could see what I was doing wrong, but I think a major problem was I was being predictable in my approach, and even being only slightly predictable gives yoshi a near-free grab.

Yes, I'm talking about grabs... I may have been focusing on the one stage that Hades CP'd me to (which I didn't know was really good for Yoshi (FD)), but basically after getting hit in the air, I'd have a second jump and then Hades was basically free to do WHATEVER on the ground as he waited for me to come down. He'd at best get off another GR > USmash and set me back into a terrible situation.
Now that I'm remembering better, the only place this was a problem was at FD.. xP I should know by now to ban that against ALL Yoshis. xD
Basically, while I was high up, he'd try and get me with Uair on the way down, land quickly and grab to punish my airdodge which had avoided the uair. When I was far away, he could egg-spam the area where I was going to land. Mid-range, he would just run around on the ground and wait for me to move far or close and react, mostly just trying for a re-grab.

I agree, I should be reflecting the eggs. I'm just not being smart. xP Hades was really good at using that move though; he could time exactly when to use a soft-lobbed egg so that it'd reach me and still allow himself to get cover behind shield or some sort of attack. When I rushed in powershielding, he would place an egg literally right next to him in the air so that it plops down on me just as I powershield and he gets off a jab or something. Maybe I need to get better at buffering things out of powershield though...

He used this when I was on a platform above him trying to jump out of the way of stuff that he could do under me, like usmash or uair or bair pressure. Or when I was trying to land on a platform and he was underneath one. He was good at mind-gaming to get the grabs, but maybe I just need to expect it more.

I KNOW HE'S NOT AS DIFFICULT TO KILL AS SNAKE!!! GAHH!!! NOWHERE DID I SAY HE WAS LIKE THAT!
I'm just saying he lives long for how floaty he APPEARS and how quickly he can move.

 

[Uffe]

Whoa, whoa, Eagleye! I understand how annoying Yoshi can be to fight. I've dealt with two good ones at one point in my time playing Brawl. It's difficult, but you eventually learn. If you block a lot, then that's probably why he's grabbing you a lot. The similarities between a blocker and a dodger is that they fear one thing more than the other. If you block a lot, it's probably because you're afraid of getting hit. If you dodge a lot, it's probably because you're afraid of being grabbed.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth earlier. I was just making a comparison between Yoshi's and Snake's weight differences. Anyway, a flat stage is a good stage for Yoshi. However, constantly playing on their battlefield will only help you get better against them. I've said this before, so I'll say it again. Just like your main and your match-ups, you must also learn the stage as well. You'll eventually figure a way out. If you ever get the chance, save the videos, win or lose and see what you could do to improve.