Ness vs. Meta Knight: Matchup Discussion

[Neon Ness]

Continuing where Eagle left off, we'll have one of these per week starting each Monday. We're starting with Meta Knight and going downwards on the tier list for now, since the voting system was kind of slow--but we can return to that if enough people feel it was better. Of course people can still add to this thread even after the week is over, but we want to leave a designated period to focus on a specific character.

Discuss all things related to the MK/Ness matchup in this thread--pros, cons, stage options, recommendations for secondaries, and any other notable points that new and old players alike should be aware of.

Even if you just need help with this specific mu, this is the place to get your questions answered, so ask away.

 

[kismet2]

fair can beat tornado, outspace his fair, and it forces mk to be closer than he wants to be. mk would want to get in vs ness anyways because of the grab release chaingrab. if a mk is ever too close a jab combo should be used and it's frame 3(right?) so you can use it to keep him out if he gets in. unfortunately ness gets wrecked offstage by mk but he'd only have the best advantage if he's over or under you. if you can stay level with mk when you're offstage you can probably use fair to recover.

 

[Jamwa]

grounded UP-b from MK beats all out approaches, so we MUST camp in this MU with lag-cancelled retreating pk fires, pivot pk fires, pivot grabs, Dair dancing, retreating fairs

if you really want to approach, SH double aerial shuffle or SH dair (probably worst choices), SH airdodge (probably best choice, to bait a shuttle loop or dsmash/tilt then grab, nair or jab combo), or a dash grab. however all these are easily read and punishable, only do these if you've read your opponent, as a shield grab will negate all of these approaches. lag cancelled pk fire can be punished with uair i think or shuttle loop, not too sure, but i know its risky. I do not know about PK jump in this MU.

do not chase mk off stage, just get good at PKT and punish him several times with that.

Punish a grounded Shuttle loop into you shield with Uair i think.

do not Dair into MK, very easily punishable (either by utilt, or shield grab, or Shuttle loop)

punish barrel roll apporaches with the "Dair dance" (lag cancelled dair's at a safe distance, term coined by Eagle)

punish dash attacks/grabs with pivot grabs. save bgrab until like 115%+ (depending on your position)

punish dair camps (must be will timed) with aerials. f/b/nair are used depending on Mk's position above you.

if youre off stage, jump and airdodge back on is probably the safest thing, and DI his dair punish to the other side, or get grabbed. sometimes the MK will overcommit to the gimp and youll land back on stage fine. sometimes you can bait them into the tail of your PKT and kill them if they are not well versed in the MU. remember to stall your PKT2 if hes edge-hogging, but make sure you can make it back to the ledge or back on stage. if all hope is lost, send the pkt at him for some dmg lol.

if youre up high, dont fall into an MK, aim for the ledge or somewhere safe. he can just shield grab, dash grab, dair or shuttle loop a landing. beware of dtilts and ftilts if you aim for the ledge, try fast falling to screw up his timing. (i sometimes PKT2 myself into the ground to force that lying down animation, or PSI magnet stall)

If the MK is uair planking at the ledge, here is a video about what to do (not sure if it applies to ness, as it requires an aerial that hits at or before 13 frames, thus we cannot dair, but here you go):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Joyf8KKdg4&feature=bf_next&list=SPF52238E65D6ED18D

i think the best bet vs mk is getting a stock lead and camping for the game lol.

note im not that good, but this is what ive gotten from playing my friend A LOT
hope this helps :D

 

[JTMerrell]

So what about a MK that really likes to spam his Up-B? I play a MK that did this and I just did not know what to do. It left me annoyed and clueless on what I should do. It seems as if my PK Fire never activated it's wall when I hit him. It was just canceled and I guess I could have used my FAir, but I felt too frustrated to really think about many other options.

 

[Jamwa]

-If he Up-B spams, shield it and:
uair (if he glides above you)
fair (if he glides a little in front of you - make sure you fair quick or a glide attack will hit you)
dashgrab (if he lands and shields)
SH dair (if he dsmash spams after landing)
- you can just SH airdodge, shield and avoid his up-b's and he'll eventually give up spamming
-skid cancel shield is a good utility to have in this MU, but it requires some practise and reading.
-if they do purely spam you can just run away i guess and get a % lead.
-know that a grounded up-b has invincibility frames so no fire pillar will activate, nor will any moves out prioritise during those invincibility frames. if you are too high and he uses up-b you can use some moves if they are spaced right.

you sorta have to force an mk to approach in this mu with PK thunder, so exploit the moving platform as it goes away from the stage on SV, and get a % lead. up-b spam shouldnt hit you unless you try to approach or youre hit after a juggle, so force him to approach via another option. ness has no answer to grounded shuttle loop, so you kinda have to read what he is going to do after the up-b. be careful he doesnt just up-b our of up-b lol.

 

[Kole]

Can anyone give advice on what to do if you're on the ledge vs. MK? It seems like I can never safely make it back onto the stage safely.

 

[Jamwa]

Since no one else will post in this thread I feel obliged.

Use PSI Thunder and make a semicircle towards the stage. this will hit unsuspecting edge guarders. only do this once though, because the next time you may get Dtilted.

A spaced Fair back onto a ledge grab will push the MK away. try not to approach him as he can Shuttle loop Fair, regardless of its massive range. An early Dtilt will also stop your advance and then you're without a jump.

Maybe a Fast Fall > Grab will work, if the MK is expecting an aerial and commits to shielding. This will not likely happen as an MK will Shuttle loop you as you land, if you use an aerial, or as your airdodge frames wear off.

Nair's sweetspot clashes with MK's glide attack and no one takes damage, so if its really obvious he's aiming for a glide attack you can just Nair then return to stage. Be careful he doesn't turn around and go for a grab or dsmash as you land. Never done this before, its just a thought.

A well timed DJ + Airdodge is good to avoid attacks, especially when you time it so you land as the airdodge finishes. Be wary not to jump right into a charged Fsmash or Dsmash.

A little risky, but you can PSI Fire after a DJ. It's easily punished though due to the lag. Shuttle Loop also cancels out the projectile entirely.

You can cancel your Jump up from the ledge with the PSI Magnet. This is Extremely situational, and only works if the MK commits to an aerial punish (which is hard since he has like no lag on his attacks) or if he tries to grab you as the PSI Magnet ends and the wind-box pushes him away (this doesn't really work either as MK's dashgrab is fast). Otherwise you're just left open for an Fsmash during your ending lag. Do not do this.

Getting back on against MK is pretty much reading your opponent; there a no 100% safe options, and there are no camping options we have that a character such as Pit possesses. Also the Risk:Reward ratio is ridiculously in MK's favour. Sometimes you just have to get hit by a Dair so you can DI back onto the stage. Rarely do you even get to grab the ledge because you're gimped before you can Of course some other aerials can be used, but fair is the safest due to its range. Also beware not to hang onto the ledge too long, MK can Shuttle Loop you from the stage and you'll get stage spiked.
As you can probably tell, off stage is where an MK wants a Ness, as its where the odds are most in his favour
I Helped

 

[Kole]

thanks for the advice

 

[Susi]

I can make a post about this too. Not now tho. Maybe tomorrow!

 

[xoxokev]

Can anyone give advice on what to do if you're on the ledge vs. MK? It seems like I can never safely make it back onto the stage safely.

mix up your ledge options. you can tap your joystick toward the stage to just get up regularly; press the jump button to jump upwards; press the shield button to roll back onto the stage; tap your joystick away from the stage to let go and then double jump with an air dodge/fair. those are the options i usually choose from. i almost never use the ledge attack because it can easily be shield grabbed. these are just general gameplay tips, and not mk specific. just remember to pick the option that with the least risk of being attacked. and mix it up if you have multiple safe options.