Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Ganon MU discussion.
THIS ONE BETTER BE FINISHED GUYS. TIRED OF THESE EMPTY THREADS YO.
THIS ONE BETTER BE FINISHED GUYS. TIRED OF THESE EMPTY THREADS YO.
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Ganon does. Prove me wrong.Ness wins.
What a waste of a post. Please include more than that next time.Ness wins.
Shield Drop > Wizkick. You just got punished for PKF.Spam PKF. His OoS options suck.
No. Wizkick will punish it.All of his options are incredibly slow. You should never get punished for using PKF unless you use it when he's right next to you.
Ness is a pretty bad character at keep away. His best option is retreating F-air, and Ganon has no trouble trading hits with Ness's F-air if he doesn't retreat it. It's very dangerous for Ness to challenge Ganon's F-smash, F-tilt, and U-air with F-air.Ness' options for keeping Ganon away are a multitude. Fair out-prioritizes almost everything Ganon has from a frontal perspective, his aerial mobility allows for good spacing with fairs and PK fires and best yet, most of Ness's attack animations send him too low to be hit with a dair easily. The problem here with Ganondorf is that he completely lacks a good spacing move, rendering him completely helpless against Ness' spacing.
I seriously disagree with it being as close as you state it. Also about PKF not being used in competitive play...yeah I just did it all day to people at a tournament. Ally, Lain and Affinity were all there. I did it multiple times to Affinity, just throwing that out there that people DO still get hit by it, you just need to be smart about it and not be a n00b and do it every other time you attack. I do it maybe, oh I don't know 4 times in a match (mostly offstage too).Lol, Ness doesn't control anyone easily.
He should never get away with PK Fire in competitive play. PK Thunder is only viable for juggles and edgeguards, which it's "meh" at.
Even Ganon has little trouble getting into a position that makes Ness uncomfortable since he outranges Ness by a very significant margin and outdamages him, and Ness can't actually camp very effectively.
I call 55/45 to 6/4 Ness. Ness only wins because he has a more reliable KO move and because Ganon's recovery is just horrifyingly bad.
This matchup is much closer than 65/35.
Ness is a pretty bad character at keep away. His best option is retreating F-air, and Ganon has no trouble trading hits with Ness's F-air if he doesn't retreat it. It's very dangerous for Ness to challenge Ganon's F-smash, F-tilt, and U-air with F-air.
MK's dsmash will just be powershielded on reaction by someone who knows the match-up. See where I'm going with this? When you start arguing about powershielding and universal abilities, it comes down to the players rather than the characters. By your logic, Ganon's fsmash shouldn't be mentioned in match-up discussions, because it's far too slow to not be powershielded.PK Fire is not a viable move, and should not be part of matchup discussions. If it's used, a player who knows the matchup will powershield it on reaction and punish it.
Ness isn't going to approach with anything but fair. What makes you think an ftilt is going to go through a fair? Or that Ness will be high enough for uair to be used effectively? Nair is good circumstantially, but doing FH-nair walls won't get you very far as they're just that: walls. Ness doesn't have a great approach, or a great defense game, but he has enough priority with his fair alone to make getting near him difficult. You also forget that Ness is very mobile in the air, so trying to hit him while he's airborne can result in you missing and being punished.It's not hard for Ganon to challenge Ness since Ness just fails at range and isn't fast. He has more range on some quick moves. His N-air, U-air, and tilts are viable for Ganon to use to play keep away from Ness.
K. Never said it was great. Just more killing power than bair, unless sweetspotted.If Ness lands F-smash on you, you suck at this game. I don't care if you use Ganondorf. You really should not get hit by this move in competitive play ever. One of the worst attacks in the game by far. It doesn't actually outrange much, it's slow as balls, and easily punished, and you can deliberately powershield it on reaction since the charge release is horrible.
Stage control him, since retreating infinitely is not possible for any character.When exactly is a Ness going to try to not retreat a fair? That and fair out-prioritizes ftilt and is often used too low to the ground for anything but a tippered uair to hit him, in which case, they'd just trade hits and the tip of Ganon's uair does 7% and even then it's stretching it because of the accuracy required to even trade hits with it. Secondly, Ness doesn't even need to get close enough for Ganon to fsmash or ftilt.
Ganon's F-smash actually has a respectable charge release, making it fairly hard to powershield on reaction, and it has massive range making it a somewhat viable punish option. Ness's F-smash however, not to mention his PK Fire are in fact moves that will be consistently powershielded by someone who knows the matchup.MK's dsmash will just be powershielded on reaction by someone who knows the match-up. See where I'm going with this? When you start arguing about powershielding and universal abilities, it comes down to the players rather than the characters. By your logic, Ganon's fsmash shouldn't be mentioned in match-up discussions, because it's far too slow to not be powershielded.
His F-air doesn't have nearly as much range as you think it does.Ness isn't going to approach with anything but fair. What makes you think an ftilt is going to go through a fair? Or that Ness will be high enough for uair to be used effectively? Nair is good circumstantially, but doing FH-nair walls won't get you very far as they're just that: walls. Ness doesn't have a great approach, or a great defense game, but he has enough priority with his fair alone to make getting near him difficult. You also forget that Ness is very mobile in the air, so trying to hit him while he's airborne can result in you missing and being punished.
Hitting Ness or getting close to him isn't hard for Ganon at all. Killing him is the hard part, but can be navigated around to some extent through edgeguards.But, A2Z, your main argument revolves around Ganondorf being able to magically transcend Ness' fairs and circumvent his aerial mobility. Point is that Ness isn't an impossible match-up by any means, but his size, aerial speed and priority on his aerials makes it difficult for Ganon to:
A. Kill him.
B. Get close enough to him to use a kill move
C. Hit him
Ftilt and uair are not all-encompassing magic tricks for this match-up. They're great, but they're not nearly as versatile against Ness as you suggest.
Did you fail to realize that Ganondorf has no projectile and is slow? To say that Ness is pretty bad at keep away, well I'm not even sure how to express my words on that opinion.This matchup is much closer than 65/35.
Ness is a pretty bad character at keep away. His best option is retreating F-air, and Ganon has no trouble trading hits with Ness's F-air if he doesn't retreat it. It's very dangerous for Ness to challenge Ganon's F-smash, F-tilt, and U-air with F-air.
While PK Fire is not suggested, a player who knows the match-up will not always powershield it unless that Ness player is being predictable and stupid.PK Fire is not a viable move, and should not be part of matchup discussions. If it's used, a player who knows the matchup will powershield it on reaction and punish it.
First off, Ness doesn't even need to keep a distance from Ganondorf. Another thing, Ness is fast, thanks.It's not hard for Ganon to challenge Ness since Ness just fails at range and isn't fast. He has more range on some quick moves. His N-air, U-air, and tilts are viable for Ganon to use to play keep away from Ness.
If Ness' f-smash hits you, you suck? Really? Maybe I should say the same thing about Meta Knight's f-smash since it's slower than Ness'. You sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.If Ness lands F-smash on you, you suck at this game. I don't care if you use Ganondorf. You really should not get hit by this move in competitive play ever. One of the worst attacks in the game by far. It doesn't actually outrange much, it's slow as balls, and easily punished, and you can deliberately powershield it on reaction since the charge release is horrible.
Ness only has retreating F-air to keep people out, and everything else is entirely possible to outspace. That's a horrible keepaway game. And while Ganon is slow, Ness isn't blisteringly fast, nor does he have good range. He cannot keep out Ganondorf very consistently like several characters.Did you fail to realize that Ganondorf has no projectile and is slow? To say that Ness is pretty bad at keep away, well I'm not even sure how to express my words on that opinion.
That isn't a valid argument. Ness's PK Fire is too slow to be a viable move. Against a player who plays smart and doesn't do dumb approaches, there is no real application to this move on stage. Your opponent has to screw up in order for you to get away with this move.While PK Fire is not suggested, a player who knows the match-up will not always powershield it unless that Ness player is being predictable and stupid.
Ganon outranges Ness, and outdamages him, so I highly doubt approaching Ganon is the best option for Ness.First off, Ness doesn't even need to keep a distance from Ganondorf. Another thing, Ness is fast, thanks.
Yes, you shouldn't be getting hit by those moves. Metaknight's F-smash however is a much better move in terms of range and ending lag and charge release, which makes it a MUCH more useful move. Ness's F-smash has no such advantages however.If Ness' f-smash hits you, you suck? Really? Maybe I should say the same thing about Meta Knight's f-smash since it's slower than Ness'. You sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.
Did you honestly just throw out 3 top players as examples because they're inexperienced? I just want to point that out. I really don't want to need to point out exactly how this is analogous to saying that milk isn't "milky" enough.And what matchups do Ally, Affinity, and Lain play all day? Metaknight?
Ganon = bad therefore ganon players = good makes a lot of sense to me. That's why top players like m2k, ally, and lain use terrible characters like ganon.Any respectable Ganon player however will actually try to make smart choices since that is the only way Ganon can fundamentally win. PK Fire and Thunder pose little threat as projectiles, and Ness's spacing game likewise doesn't come close to completely shutting down Ganon.
The point is I'm asking what proves that they know how to play a specific matchup any better than you or I can? Name dropping is not a particularly good argument, as I'm trying to explain to a person above me. In a matchup discussion, you discuss tools and options for dealing with tools, not what some random player gets hit by.Did you honestly just throw out 3 top players as examples because they're inexperienced? I just want to point that out. I really don't want to need to point out exactly how this is analogous to saying that milk isn't "milky" enough.
You'll see people playing better characters get lazy and throw out their usual walls if they don't know a particular matchup. If you're playing any decent Ganon, they WILL powershield predictable and slow projectiles like a good player is supposed to. I'm suggesting that several of you don't fully fathom how easy it is to do if you just have the right mindset.Ganon = bad therefore ganon players = good makes a lot of sense to me. That's why top players like m2k, ally, and lain use terrible characters like ganon.
Everyone with a brain tries to make smart calls.
I can also interpret this as:I'm not so much stating that I'm godlike with Ness because I know I'm not, I'm just saying that Ness does fine with his projectiles if you use them well. They do well if you're smart. I also already said I use PKF for off-stage purposes.
This feels much better to me at 60-40. I don't think I'd particularly make it any lower than that.
Well I'm happy to see you agree with me then! Thanks a lot.People don't have to be worse than you to be outplayed in certain situations. Almost everything Ganon does in any given matchup, particularly just plain landing hits, is based on outplaying people in specific situations.
This doesn't change the fact that Ness's options are limited and that he doesn't come close to shutting down Ganondorf. Thus I say the matchup ranges from 55/45 to 6/4 Ness. The advantages Ness has are pretty small once Ganon learns that his superior range allows him to trade hits a lot of the time, and Ness doesn't really stop Ganon from "approaching" since he doesn't have a respectable camp game.
Actually he has retreating nair and bair as well. Nair pushes the opponent back and makes it possible for Ness, believe it or not, combo them. Bair is a dangerous attack that you could trick your opponent into thinking you'll hit them and possibly force them to come towards you, thus making it possible for you to strike them with it.Ness only has retreating F-air to keep people out, and everything else is entirely possible to outspace. That's a horrible keepaway game. And while Ganon is slow, Ness isn't blisteringly fast, nor does he have good range. He cannot keep out Ganondorf very consistently like several characters.
Of course it's valid. Do you think that the other player you're fighting knows what attack you're going to use? No, unless again you're being predictable. As for smart players, believe it or not, even the smartest players makes dumb decisions at some point during a match. With PK Fire, you can use it in the air, pivot it, camp under a platform with it making it hard for the other player to do something about it and so on.That isn't a valid argument. Ness's PK Fire is too slow to be a viable move. Against a player who plays smart and doesn't do dumb approaches, there is no real application to this move on stage. Your opponent has to screw up in order for you to get away with this move.
Then what is Ness going to do? Run around? Yeah, that sounds like it'd be in Ganondorf's favor if that were the case. Your opponent blocks, grab them. If they dodge, wait out an attack or use a laggy one. No Ness player is just going to go at their opponent only to have their attack blocked and punished.Ganon outranges Ness, and outdamages him, so I highly doubt approaching Ganon is the best option for Ness.
If I do recall correctly, Ness has one of the best aerials in the game. And if you want to talk about range, see IC's grabs. Ness' range is about average. Maybe not as great as Ganondorf's, but trust me, Ganondorf isn't exactly foolproof against Ness.Ness isn't fast. He has low run speed and fairly low aerial top speed, and he's really floaty. His startup and ending lag is generally average, and he has no range.
Meta Knight's f-smash doesn't have anymore range than Ness' bat. There is a small hitbox on the end of Ness' f-smash that isn't visible that causes a tipper. Ness' f-smash isn't useless and a well-pivoted f-smash makes his Bat useful. Anyway, I'm not even sure why his f-smash was brought up anyway. It's probably one of the least used smash attacks from him. But that doesn't mean it's useless.Yes, you shouldn't be getting hit by those moves. Metaknight's F-smash however is a much better move in terms of range and ending lag and charge release, which makes it a MUCH more useful move. Ness's F-smash has no such advantages however.
N-air doesn't combo into anything, what are you trying to tell me? That move has too much ending lag and landing lag to reliably combo into anything. Maybe you can trick people into getting F-aired out of N-air if they don't know what they're doing.Actually he has retreating nair and bair as well. Nair pushes the opponent back and makes it possible for Ness, believe it or not, combo them. Bair is a dangerous attack that you could trick your opponent into thinking you'll hit them and possibly force them to come towards you, thus making it possible for you to strike them with it.
PK Fire telegraphs itself, so it's the players fault if they leave themselves so open that they literally can't avoid the move.If course it's valid. Do you think that the other player you're fighting knows what attack you're going to use? No, unless again you're being predictable. As for smart players, believe it or not, even the smartest players makes dumb decisions at some point during a match. With PK Fire, you can use it in the air, pivot it, camp under a platform with it making it hard for the other player to do something about it and so on.
Ness's range is far below average.If I do recall correctly, Ness has one of the best aerials in the game. And if you want to talk about range, see IC's grabs. Ness' range is about average. Maybe not as great as Ganondorf's, but trust me, Ganondorf isn't exactly foolproof against Ness.
Incidentally, unless the character matchup is horribly skewed in your favor, I would think that you generally beat opponents by outplaying them.Outplaying people =/= valid application.
LOL really?This matchup consists of 2 things: retreat fair, and spam PKT until he can't take it anymore.
Really, that's it; just run the timer in this matchup. Trying to get in close to kill Ganon is waaaay too risky. Run the timer. It's at least 60:40 in Ness' favor.