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Ness Vs. Cloud /sword characters

PeterCat12

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
10
This match up is almost a nightmare for me. I know Ness struggles against sword characters in general (or characters with bigger disjounts than his) but what is the general strategy against Cloud and other sword characters. He really seems to struggle in the neutral against Cloud. The whole match up seems to be who can get the other off stage or into the air first. Cloud seems to have an easier time due to his speed in the neutral. Any insight would be appreciated!
 

my_T

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
352
based off of experience (my friend uses pretty much all sword characters) unfortunately ness loses the neutral battle pretty hard against sword characters. Based off of the neutral of sword characters (assuming your opponent is playing them properly) they shut down ness's aerials. Ness's aerials will likely get beat or result in a loss of neutral.

You pretty much have to let them control the pace and make the first move and try to punish or move in when you have the opportunity. Your best options of doing this are dash attack and PK fire.

Dash attack is very disjointed/multi-hit and safe if spaced well. Use it to punish rolls and spot dodges. Punishing landings with dash attack is usually pretty good but its risky against sword characters because of moves like cloud/marth/shulk Fair and Nair which covers in front and under them so you might end up trading or just getting smacked if you try to punish they're landing with dash attack.

PK fire aerial/grounded is another option you have to win neutral but it is extremely risky, especially the aerial version and the zap jump version is the most risky because it requires your second jump. I would only recommend using PK fire if you get a read.

To sum all of this up, you're just going to have to play very defensive and just punish and move in when you can. When they're offstage harass them with PK thunder as much as you can. But getting them offstage is easier said than done because of all the reasons above. Just another case of a bad match-up
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
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Sword characters require patience. I may actually be overthinking the match ups, though. Marth and Lucina for sure give Ness trouble. Cloud? I don't think he's as bad. All of Ness', minus his nair and dair, are faster than Cloud's aerials. Ness and Cloud have nair that comes out 5 frames, I believe. Ness' body becomes a hitbox while Cloud's sword requires a full 360 starting from his back. So you may be able to land nair before he does. Neither character has to approach, but Cloud will surely be sitting in place charging up his Limit. Your best option would be to approach him cautiously and see how he reacts. Most likely he'll either block, roll, or both. Sitting at the edge in general is a bad position for any character, and really, the only option they've got is to get off the edge, or try to get by you. Nair and uair are the two aerials to really look out for when facing off against Cloud since they're pretty good. His fair has a bit of start up time, so if he goes about doing that, then you can probably wait for it and fair him back.

His Limit creates intimidation, much like Little Mac's KO Punch. The only difference is that Little Mac's KO Punch can't be blocked and kills early. Cloud has his Finishing Touch, but I do believe that can be blocked. You may want to test that if you can. I only have a 3DS. Actually, many of his Limit attacks can be blocked. With the Limit version of his B special, it doesn't really give Cloud much time to get in and follow up. That's probably to help balance him. I don't know. I'm not sure how comfortable you are pursuing opponents while they're off stage, but with Ness, you've got the option of going out and nairing, fairing, using PK Thunder and tailwhipping his recovery, charging PK Flash and hoping it lands, or if he's close enough, grabbing him when he up B's and waiting for the grab release which will send him to his death. Spacing and baiting Cloud is key. He'll most likely do the same, but again, sword characters require patience to deal with. Cloud is tough, but I don't think he's as difficult as Marth and Lucina.

Marcina can get you off stage and counter you. Yeah, that's making it sound easy, but if they get that opportunity, they will do just that. Unlike Cloud, these two you can take a bit more time since they don't have a Limit. Many of the Marcina's I've faced will bait and punish you, so against these types, you don't want to play recklessly. Try to do the same. Throw out some attacks, do some empty hops, get close and evade. Do whatever to see how your opponent reacts and capitalize on it. So if they're blocking a lot, go for the occasional grab. If they're using side B a lot, perhaps use PK Fire. Be sure to avoid any possibility of them Countering or Dolphin Slashing out of PKF. If that becomes the case, then use PKF again, if they counter again, or follow them if they DS.
 

EnhaloTricks

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Messages
197
Location
Texas
based off of experience (my friend uses pretty much all sword characters) unfortunately ness loses the neutral battle pretty hard against sword characters. Based off of the neutral of sword characters (assuming your opponent is playing them properly) they shut down ness's aerials. Ness's aerials will likely get beat or result in a loss of neutral.

You pretty much have to let them control the pace and make the first move and try to punish or move in when you have the opportunity. Your best options of doing this are dash attack and PK fire.

Dash attack is very disjointed/multi-hit and safe if spaced well. Use it to punish rolls and spot dodges. Punishing landings with dash attack is usually pretty good but its risky against sword characters because of moves like cloud/marth/shulk Fair and Nair which covers in front and under them so you might end up trading or just getting smacked if you try to punish they're landing with dash attack.

PK fire aerial/grounded is another option you have to win neutral but it is extremely risky, especially the aerial version and the zap jump version is the most risky because it requires your second jump. I would only recommend using PK fire if you get a read.

To sum all of this up, you're just going to have to play very defensive and just punish and move in when you can. When they're offstage harass them with PK thunder as much as you can. But getting them offstage is easier said than done because of all the reasons above. Just another case of a bad match-up
I feel like you don't know the MU's very well (I mean, it says you play DK). They're not that hard as much as they're annoying and require patience. My region has A LOT of Ikes, Roys and Clouds and none of them but Cloud are that bad to deal with.

Dash Attack and PK Fire are alright, but Fair, nair and uair are much better vs the swordies. They seem "tougher" to set up (you can't just run in and fair, or you'll get swatted away), but you're gonna be getting in a lot. Our frame data is just superior in every way (sans Cloud). If we can get one opening they should be eating a ton of damage. Dthrow -> fair -> uair/nair/fair to whatever is guaranteed and we can combo Ike AND Marcina for days. Edgeguarding Ike is as simple as PK Fire. If he gets back to the stage he should have eaten 20%+.

You just need to play patient. Dance in and out of their range and don't make the first move. Maybe throw out nairs and fairs to bait them, but you can't commit too heavily until they do something. But once they do something we can capitalize and make them eat it until they die.

Ike has decent lanidng lag on everything but bair and will want to approach in the air. Watch out for nair. His grab is really good and he gets good reward off of it at low percent, but it won't kill ever, so avoid getting grabbed at low percent. For Marcina, Roy, and Ike you'll want to recover close to the stage to abuse PKT2's invincibility frames - they last about half the length of PKT2 - because they'll try and counter/Eruption you.

I think Ness wins all these MU's (except maybe Cloud. I've heard it's in his favor but I'm not 100%). It just requires playing differently and baiting their approach.
 
Last edited:

my_T

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
352
I feel like you don't know the MU's very well (I mean, it says you play DK). They're not that hard as much as they're annoying and require patience. My region has A LOT of Ikes, Roys and Clouds and none of them but Cloud are that bad to deal with.

Dash Attack and PK Fire are alright, but Fair, nair and uair are much better vs the swordies. They seem "tougher" to set up (you can't just run in and fair, or you'll get swatted away), but you're gonna be getting in a lot. Our frame data is just superior in every way (sans Cloud). If we can get one opening they should be eating a ton of damage. Dthrow -> fair -> uair/nair/fair to whatever is guaranteed and we can combo Ike AND Marcina for days. Edgeguarding Ike is as simple as PK Fire. If he gets back to the stage he should have eaten 20%+.

You just need to play patient. Dance in and out of their range and don't make the first move. Maybe throw out nairs and fairs to bait them, but you can't commit too heavily until they do something. But once they do something we can capitalize and make them eat it until they die.

Ike has decent lanidng lag on everything but bair and will want to approach in the air. Watch out for nair. His grab is really good and he gets good reward off of it at low percent, but it won't kill ever, so avoid getting grabbed at low percent. For Marcina, Roy, and Ike you'll want to recover close to the stage to abuse PKT2's invincibility frames - they last about half the length of PKT2 - because they'll try and counter/Eruption you.

I think Ness wins all these MU's (except maybe Cloud. I've heard it's in his favor but I'm not 100%). It just requires playing differently and baiting their approach.
I know these match-ups quite well. Me being a DK main doesn't mean that im allowed to play DK only. Ive been playing DK, ness, ganon, mario, Dark Pit, and falcon since early 2015. I actually have more playtime with some of these characters than i do DK.

Im confused as to why you would say that i dont know the match-up when you're not really saying anything different from what im saying in my previous post with the exception of ness's aerials and frame data.

As far as frame data, all the sword characters excluding Ike, and shulk have frame data on par if not better than ness's. Marcina and roy have VERY little start up on most of their moves. Overall they are faster in both mobility and attack speed and have just as much end lag if not less end lag than ness; especially when it comes to aerials and B-moves. Combine this with their range and disjoints and you now have various reasons as to why you shouldn't force ness's aerials in neutral. They're just not very effective in these specific match-ups.

Also, you make it sound so easy for ness to get in. His zone breaking tools are far from the best, especially against sword types. And as far as making commitments and opting to not make the first move can be done vice versa. Getting in is possible but it's not nearly as simple when the opponent knows what they are doing.
 

EarthBoundEnigma

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Dec 4, 2014
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Ness has garbage range and is going to have a very hard time against all the characters that can wall him out of range with good spacing and disjointed hitboxes.
The match simply won't progress if you both hang back and play defensively, so it becomes a patience test. If Ness is more reserved and conservative, he wins.
Punish their move-ins rather than trying to make plays.

However, this is not true of Cloud. You cannot sit back and wait against him. He will just charge his limit.
It might be bad, but against Cloud I actually like to try and harass him with PKT when he runs and charges.
I'm still not sure how to optimally handle a good Cloud.
 

Uffe

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Ness has garbage range and is going to have a very hard time against all the characters that can wall him out of range with good spacing and disjointed hitboxes.
The match simply won't progress if you both hang back and play defensively, so it becomes a patience test. If Ness is more reserved and conservative, he wins.
Punish their move-ins rather than trying to make plays.

However, this is not true of Cloud. You cannot sit back and wait against him. He will just charge his limit.
It might be bad, but against Cloud I actually like to try and harass him with PKT when he runs and charges.
I'm still not sure how to optimally handle a good Cloud.
Ness doesn't have to move in when Cloud is using his Limit. Cloud's Limit at a distance is obvious and can be absorbed or reflected by Ness' PSIM. Finishing Touch can be blocked. The only thing Ness needs to worry about when it comes to Limit is being close and getting hit by the side B version of it. But if you do bother getting close, you can go for a Jump PK Fire and see how that works. If he blocks and tries to attack afterwards, then at least you'll be able to use your second jump and get away, or use an aerial.
 

AuraWielder

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Yeah, as a Ness main myself, I struggle the most with Sheik (well no duh, everyone does) and swordfighters. Even Shulk can be a pain thanks to his range. And Cloud's just a nightmare. Against swordfighters, I'll typically just bring out my Peach instead.
 

BahnCalamari

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 20, 2015
Messages
8
Location
Canada
I am really struggling with the Cloud matchup. We are playing a slow form tournament and I know I have two Cloud matches over the next two days...

Any tips at all would be welcome. If this is just a bad matchup - who would our good counter pick be?
 

my_T

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
352
I am really struggling with the Cloud matchup. We are playing a slow form tournament and I know I have two Cloud matches over the next two days...

Any tips at all would be welcome. If this is just a bad matchup - who would our good counter pick be?
i would recommend picking up a balanced character (pit's, and mario are good balanced characters) as a secondary for ness bad match-ups. This match-up is pretty rough as is with any sword character.

If you do decide to go ness against cloud try to abuse him as much as you can with PK thunder when he's off stage; it could result in a possible gimp and force him to use limit Up-b if he has limit.

Don't try to fight him in the air; you will likely lose most of those interactions because of his disjoints and range. Defensive play is key in the sword character match-ups. Try to punish his Dair with ness Fair from the sides or you can punish the landing with dash attack/PK fire. Play very carefully when he has limit.
 

GalaxyMagnum

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
7
It's weird. I can't touch a good Cloud with my Ness, but when I switch to Marth (who is arguably just a worse version of Cloud), the match switches heavy into my favor.

Cloud's not even that fast, but his range means that you have to perfectly time their whiffs. I want to give PPCC a shot, though. Might limit some of Cloud's approach options.

Gonna experiment with flat-wall stages and double PK Thunder2 edgeguards too. I know it's hella situational, but maybe it's better than nothing?
 

PKBeam

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Ness gets outranged by quite a few characters, but he can get around it with good spacing and awareness of the opponent's options. It might still be a bad MU regardless, but it's not like a -2 or -3.

What does Marth have on you if you stay just outside his range and wait? Nothing - if your reaction time is good enough. It becomes a footsies situation - who can make the right reads?

Cloud has a few options against passive-aggressive play, but the concept is the same. You just need to see his options and pick one of your own to approach with. And if you're at 120% or he has Limit charged then you just have to play even more carefully.
 

realmwars

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Is it odd that I really don't have much of an issue against Cloud using Ness?

I actually tend to have a harder time going against Marth than Cloud.
 

Cornbrd

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 12, 2015
Messages
34
Idk if this will help you or not but Ness can short hop over his projectile lol (visual hitbox is bigger than actual hitbox--confirmed)
 
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