Ness Vision -- Live streams every Wednesday

[The Mofo]

You can jab reset into both PK Fire and the YYG, however there are usually better options. Not to be a party pooper, haha.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

My usual choices for jab reset are grab, fsmash, and dair. I'm still gonna try out pk fire though. I gotta see what I can manage with it.

Oh hey since we're on the topic of jab resets: Anyone else like using dash attack to knockdown and jab reset all at once?

 

[The Mofo]

I'd like it if it worked more consistently.

 

[Double Helix]

Same here. Then again, I don't know the spacing to do that thing. It is usually just a shove or a pop-up attack for me. Not learning the spacing of a disjointed hitbox due to laziness for the win!

That said, out of jab reset I usually grab, Fsmash or bair.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I can get people with it pretty good if I already have them in a jab reset position, but its hard to land it as the initial jab reset. I like to imagine that provided no mistakes are made that Ness could use his dash attack for a sort of jab reset infinite and end with a kill move for a free stock. Oh wouldnt that be swell.^_^

 

[Double Helix]

I like to imagine a lot of things provided no mistakes are made. I would also like to make far fewer mistakes. But in the end, I can only strive for it. I really hope to push the limits of this character. I really wanna see a Ness in the Top 8 of a big tournament.

 

[The Mofo]

Yeah I feel you on the mistakes bit. After watching myself play now that I'm being recorded more, I realize just how bad I am at this game, haha. I probably only do what I intend to do about 40% of the time. At least I know that I have a lot of room to grow.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

top 8 huh? damn i was so close at evo2007 ^_^

Thanks Corneria!

 

[Double Helix]

Man Mofo. You are lucky. 40% of the time would be great lol. So can we talk a little about Ness's dair? Mostly because I don't like it very much so I don't use it. It seems great, and you two seem to enjoy using it, but I hate using it unless I'm coming from above after being hit. Or if I know it will be edge-cancelled. Even then, it isn't an option that I use much.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I know how you feel. I'm training Vorpalstorm right now (hoping to get from casual level to a good competitive level by EVO) specifically in Ness play. Xhe has a hard time using dair because of confidence in the move and the ability to use a without such disjointed safety as fair. A move like Ness' dair which, like most spikes, pop characters up for good comboing has obvious applications that I'm sure you can see, but I imagine the problem is the fear that at your level of skill you are gonna pay for any attempts to use dair and so you feel like sticking to your safer moves.


Well that might be true. You probably will pay for trying to use less safe moves, but you have to do it. Your instincts on when and how to approach and lead and pressure and fake and all that will develop as you play and broaden yourself into using these less safe moves. Your reaction time will also go up as you play. You just have to do it.

I know it can be scary to use any move that makes you vulnerable, but sometimes you have to make that leap knowing that your opponent or your opponent's character may be able to take advatange of your vulnerabilities it doesnt mean that they will. You may find that when you make yourself vulnerable they are busy trying to take advantage of some other vulnerability you would've had if you had been doing a different move; the move they thought you were going to use.


You're pretty much gonna have to make mistakes and get punished while getting to know the moves before they will become very effective for you.


EDIT: Oh hey Mofo.....do you ever go by masterofflames anymore?

 

[Double Helix]

Argh, this whole 'fail before you get better' thing really gets old, but is a common theme. I lose so often lol. The only success I have seen so far was something all the way back on page one, auto-cancelled Dair. I used to use the move more honestly, and I could see myself using it against fast-fallers more than other characters. When I was at school (still no high-level players there), I would use Dair -> Utilt -> jab reset -> chain-grab. But in a way, it is harder to play against lower-level players. They don't play smart, so playing Ness is hard, since it is about out-playing the smart opponent. When I face someone that I am better than, I start to play too aggressively and it sucks. But back to Dair.

I see its uses, I just hate that it seems to be Ness's only option when above an opponent (with the exception of PK fire very situationally or PK thunder super super sparingly). Let's say I am in a situation where I can Bair or Fair instead of using Dair. I don't understand why I would ever Dair unless I plan to auto-cancel it. I have tried (unsuccessfully) for months to find Dair's place against characters that aren't the space animals and Falcon. Maybe it is because I face players that don't tend to stay grounded against a flying Ness?

Another one of my main issues with Dair is it seems trade or flat out lose to other aerials. I try hard to save my double jump, but if I don't have it, I feel like all hope is lost, along with a stock. So let's assume for now we are on Final Destination, what are my options if I have no jumps and I am above a character that is grounded, but will probably opt to using an aerial on me?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

There are a lot of factors to consider. First being what character is your opponent, but also where are you in relation to him(how far above are you? how far apart are the two of you horizontally?). Depending on these you may be able to things like drift in a direction to make a non-dair aerial a more viable option. Another option that may become available is to simply drift out of the range of your opponent so you land before they can get to you. Remember that fast falling and air dodging are very useful tools in many situations. Also, don't rule out dair; sometimes you do want to use that. Dair lingers for a little bit and has a healthy-sized hitbox; it just takes some timing/spacing. Those other things you mentioned(pk fire, pk thunder) may also become useful, but probably not as often. You may even find one of those 1 in 250 sitautions where stalling your fall with psi magnet is what you wanna do^_^.

In any situation, always be ready to DI.


EDIT: If you wanna add a little boost to your improvement speed, why not taking some high-tech skill you've seen in a video of another Ness player and take time to learn that skill in training mode. It will take some time, but it works when you dont have opponent's around.

 

[Double Helix]

Well I guess I should really work on the uses of Dair then, once I get to a higher level (I think). I am a little disappointed in myself, though. The other day I was facing one of my buddies and since he isn't as good as I am, I thought it would be good to try to autopilot some tech skill and focus on something different.

So I started focusing on fighter for space, rather than fighting my opponent. I started to miss L-cancels. Not all the time but more than one or two. So time to work on L-cancelling, though it is hard to work on the timing for a shielding opponent by yourself.

 

[The Mofo]

For dair, here's a list of ways I usually hit with it:

1. Spaced non-approach. DJC dair above your opponent either retreating, or angled so that you'll land behind their shield. Don't fasfall too soon, maybe about halfway to the ground. You want to space this so that it won't hit unless they approach. The hitbox lasts a long time, and the trick is to create a diagonal wall with the hitbox as you go down to the ground. Then when you autocancel, if the dair connects then follow up with that, and if it doesn't dash away and hope for a whiffed approach to punish with grab/bair/uair etc. If they didn't approach then nothing lost nothing gained. I've found this to be a very safe, low-risk high-reward tactic, especially when at low percent. (At high percent, bad spacing/execution will allow your opponent to knock you off stage without a second jump).

2. Tech-chase follow-up, especially on platforms. On most platforms you can full-jump dair fastfall, and it autocancels. If you guess a get-up tech wrong you still have time to dash jump-canceled grab.

3. Edge guarding follow-up from ledge. Verses many characters, ledge hogging forces them to land on stage with some kind of landing lag. Depending on what percentage they are / how far from the ledge they land / how much time you have before their cooldown finishes, you can DJ from the ledge and either dair, bair, or waveland grab.

4. Shield poking. DJC dairing above a character's shield without fastfalling makes it so the dair hitbox moves in very small increments downward per frame, allowing for a substantially higher chance of shield poking even the tiniest exposed hurtbox. Also, a perfect DJC dair close to the ground can shield poke some characters' feet as well (just like bair).

5. Just punishing any kind of cooldown. If you're already non-approaching with dair, and see them do something laggy, you can react and pull in to hit them.

Dair is such an important move for Ness, as it means guaranteed KO with uair in about a 40% range against most characters. This has actually been my most frequent form of KOing as of late.

By the way, PC Chris and I call Dair -> Uair KO "the gameplan". At a No Johns tournament some years ago, a Pikachu player wanted to MM Chris' Ness, and he came to me for advice. I told him to take him to Pokemon and try to get a bunch of shield-poke dair-uair on him, as you can kill Pikachu between about 80% and 120% with it, and Pikachu's shield is so bad. He said "OK, that'll be the gameplan.". He then killed him every single stock that way, and every time he got it off he yelled out 'GAMEPLAN!'

Another one of my main issues with Dair is it seems trade or flat out lose to other aerials. I try hard to save my double jump, but if I don't have it, I feel like all hope is lost, along with a stock. So let's assume for now we are on Final Destination, what are my options if I have no jumps and I am above a character that is grounded, but will probably opt to using an aerial on me?

This is up there as a contender for worst problems with Ness, along with how easy it is to edgegaurd him, and getting your double jump eaten when getting hit by an almost-combo. The best you can do is turn it into a rock-paper-scissors game: air-dodge or attack VS. attack or wait for air-dodge. If you air dodge first and get away, a smart player will try to bait it next time. So, you can just straight up attack them when confronted with the same situation. If you both attack, different things will happen depending on the match-up and what the actual moves are/spacing is.

If you have enough space to move backwards, do so with fair. This will get you out of coming down directly on top of them, and is relatively safe against most characters.

 

[Double Helix]

Lol. I just had a moment where my brain translated everything you said, after processing it, into "Get better noob"

In any case, I have an idea of how to use it. It is basically a way to protect your space as you land. How does this work with characters like Marth? I am assuming against Marth, daring them to approach like that will get a nicely spaced tipper. So what other options do I have so that after catching him with his pants down, I can continue to do so?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

By the way, PC Chris and I call Dair -> Uair KO "the gameplan". At a No Johns tournament some years ago, a Pikachu player wanted to MM Chris' Ness, and he came to me for advice. I told him to take him to Pokemon and try to get a bunch of shield-poke dair-uair on him, as you can kill Pikachu between about 80% and 120% with it, and Pikachu's shield is so bad. He said "OK, that'll be the gameplan.". He then killed him every single stock that way, and every time he got it off he yelled out 'GAMEPLAN!'

Hahaha I love smash-related stories like these.

Lol. I just had a moment where my brain translated everything you said, after processing it, into "Get better noob"

Neither Mofo nor I know with any kind of specificity what your skill level is like right now. I have been recently training someone from casual level so my reply to you(above) is aimed at something closer to that level of player(reminding you of your available moves and promoting more frequent use so you get used to the "feel" [spacing/timing] of the moves) where Mofo's reply covers specific usages in different situations that are aimed at a player with a level of technical confidence that, based on your reply here, you haven't reached. Technical stuff can be intimidating, but sometimes jumping right into them is a good way to get over that intimidation and learn new moves. On the other hand, if you skill level is too low to begin with then jumping into these new, intimidating techniques without a basis in other skills already formed then you won't get much progress out of it at all.

What I'm really getting with this long-winded post: Is there any chance of you getting videos of yourself playing matches with other people? If we get to know what level you are at right now we can give you advice that will up your general level of play and make more specific and situational tactics easier for you to pick up.

EDIT: oh and the more videos the better

 

[Double Helix]

I am quite confortable with tech skill, but my problem is I feel like I have to think about it so it isn't where it should be. That sums it up. I can see if the one dude I play with has a capture card and I will post the videos if he has one. Even if he does, I don't know when I can get the videos up because he has work and I start class in eight hours. I understand where you are coming from though. I knew you guys weren't classing my skill level, I just had a moment where after everything was processed, I had that thought.

In any case, I hope I can get some videos. The guy I face doesn't really have a main, but he can play a lot of the cast at a relatively high level. His fox is a lot like PC Chris'. He has a Yoshi, which might suck. I may ask him to not play Sheik for obvious reasons.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

That's cool... whenever you can. Actually what would be better is if you came over to my house and we played some matches. I live at (see location on my profile). When should I expect you? Tomorrow afternoon? ^_^

 

[Double Helix]

Cali is sooo far away. And I have summer classes x.x I would love to go play of course.

Turns out I don't know anybody with a capture card. Maybe a crappy camcorder recording could exist. Looks like I will have to look for one of those. Keep in mind, I only know one guy at a reasonable level of play. So I may just be playing against scrubs, but it is better than playing against AI so whatever works I guess.

 

[FearTheTree]

Do you still stream Mofo?