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Ness Video & Critique Thread

JuanShotKill

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
6
Location
Fort Myers, Florida
Eagleye:
Thanks man, I really appreciate the advice. I can tell from just watching the video what I need work on, so your help is going to make me much, much better.
 

Flame Hyenard

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 3, 2010
Messages
1,900
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France
I'd like to have some feedbacks on my Ness with this replay : Here
Keep in mind that it was on Wi-Fi against an european (less lag than if I brawled an american), and my opponent's right hand was broken, which is why you don't see him performing that well.

Maybe it's not the best replay to comment on about my errors, but I know there are some I need to fix and only you all can tell me about it, since I only second Ness ^^;
 

Screk

Lost in moonside
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Eagleye893 said:
I'll go through first specific moments in the video


@0:30, after he UPb's your shield, you should either jump OoS and chase him down with a FAir or UAir or drop the shield and dashattack/dash forward > PK Fire. Super helpless state and he was able to grab the ledge in time before you got off the grab.

@0:34-ish, that was a good bait/read by him. When someone starts moving away, be super cautious of your spacing. 1 more step would've grabbed him.
>> from that, if you had grabbed him, it's normally better, in my opinion, to just pummel>release luigi below the stage, but since you're both at early percents a FThrow would work better. At higher percents, you can wait a tiny bit to see what he does, then if he goes up with upB to grab the ledge, you can do a couple of things to cover them at that spot. SH FF Dair on the edge will at least force them into a get-up or invincible drop-down, provided your DAir is auto-canceled. Bunch o' crazy reads and mindgames on the ledge with Ness.

Yeah, you PK Fire'd near him at @0:40. Maybe unintentional, but grounded PK Fires should always be as far away from the opponent as possible so you don't get punished easily. He could have had a free Shoryuken, but he went for the grab.

Like the mini-bait w/ PK Flash at @0:44. Risky, but nice.

Good use of pkt after that.

You missed a couple of free fire-ball absorptions... me being the PSImag guy, I get a little antsy when some Ness main misses those things.

With the DashAttack that Luigi did, be sure he does the little POP hit at the end, then NAir OoS. That's the safest way to deal with it because you will almost always get the damage on him.

The second time he DashAttack'd, you were landing behind him and not punishing the lag extraordinarily well. What I would've done is use an Aerial PK Fire (the unsafe kind!!!) to pop him up and get a tiny bit of damage from that. Also, he would have a bit of trouble recovering since the pillar is blocking the ledge AND you have stage control.

Nice read and punish with the DAir to finish off the first stock. LIEK!

Everything from there seemed alright. A couple instances where I think you should've chosen a different spot or time to land (use PSImag) to try and lessen damage, but oh well.

A couple similar things from the first stock happened the second stock. You let him back at the ledge after he missed upB, for instance.

Something different, @3:03, you ground him and make it look as if you're going for an epic tech-roll read into a pivot grab > BThrow for the KO, but you go for a NAir instead. Grabs and DashAttack are nice for poking at a specific spot on the ground for when you know where your opponent will end up.

@3:19, you caught him in a PK Fire pillar. Whenever you see your opponent gets caught, you should always look to charge in and punish UNLESS IT'S SOMEONE LIKE MARTH WHO HAS AN INVINCIBLE MOVE OR SUPER-FAST MOVE OR FALCO WHO HAS A REFLECTOR! You really can only do more damage to them. For example, after PK Jump's, I hit an opponent with just the bolt of the PKF b/c they DI away. I land with an airdodge and run forward because they often do something immediately after DI'ing which I can punish. If they land, Just NAir OoS. If they do an attack, Shield and NAir OoS.... A bunch of things are solved by that. xD

Sometimes when you're using BAir, you're spacing it too high or too low. In the situations where you're going to low, try UAir instead. Oddly enough, that thing has a HIGH chance of hitting. if you aim a bit high, just FF the thing and you'll get the sourspot. From the sourspot, you can look for reads and try and followup with a lulzy punish, like USmash or a dashgrab.

Because I can't think of anything else in particular to comment on within the video, I'll just go to general things.



DashGrab is the ultimate punishing tool. It's quick, has GREAT spacing, and people have trouble escaping the grab. It's a guaranteed 11% if you opt for U/Fthrow, but Dthrow can have its gimmicky uses which I advise other people to not indulge in too much. They're very unsafe, but once-in-a-while you can lead a DThrow into a UAir or BAir if you're tricky.

The second best punishing tool, in my opinion, is YoYo or DashAttack. This depends on the situation. Dash Attack gets everything extremely far away. YoYo gets things somewhat near and for more damage, but it CAN be DI'd. If you use the YoYo, right, you won't need to worry about it being DI'd though.
Get in the habit of only using DashAttack to hit with the second and third hits. If you hit with the first hit, you can get punished hard if the opponent does everything correctly. The third hit pops the opponent up in a spot which will generally help you. It can lead to crazy move strings or just a bunch of mind games. The second hit pushes the opponent outward, and will MOST OF THE TIME lead to them getting hit by the third hit. If not, they are pushed too far away to be able to punish you a lot at all.

The third best punishing tool is FTilt it does 11% or 12% if you can angle it upward and covers a fair amount of spacing. It's a bit difficult to get in the habit of using FTilt a lot, but it will save you a couple percent in many different cases.


Now in terms of racking damage, the moves I use most often to do this are as follows:

NAir
UAir
FThrow/DThrow
DAir
PK Fire
FAir.

I use FAir the least because people DI it too much. It's a great move, but I personally don't like it. NAir should be used to damage most because it's fast and leads to my other favorite move, UAir. UAir has SOO much range. I only rack damage with it because it's just like *run up... OH HAI! MY HEAD IS HUGE!* and they take like 13%. The throws I explained earlier. DAir is best used behind the opponent and auto-canceled. Basically it's used to just move around, plant yourself on the ground laglessly and rush in for either a grab or a yoyo or some other quick unexpected option... or just to troll. PK Fire is a bit obvious, but it also leads to everything else and can sometimes bring out a reason to use the bat.


And as a final note, when in doubt, put up your shield and NAir OoS when you feel the need to. It's safe when used perfectly.
^^ to my video
 

Jamwa

Smash Champion
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Hey, guys, just got back from a tournament and got absolutely destroyed against Will. Luckily, I got it recorded, so a critique on how bad I did would be nice.

http://www.twitch.tv/teamcustomcombo2/b/315007868 starting at 1:50:47

Do your worst. ;)
Right after that down chaingrab at the start you should of dair'd not fair'd, unless you wanted to be safe.

that recovery right afterwards was facepalm lol

good footstall attempt at 1:52:40 ish, would have been nice if it worked

at high percentges dont go for grabs too obviously (this is a problem i struggle with as well) players will know ness wants the bgrab so mix it up

when you're off the edge and you know they're going to go for an aerial, just DJ and air dodge at the same time and you'll recover fine, but be wary they might predict this and FF for a punish.

when dk gets you off the edge with the bairs, dont always DI towards the stage, save your DJ and move away from him, or space an fair to hit his extended foot

also just space with fairs pk fires in the air from a safer distance, you have the projectiles DK needs to approach you

look im not that good but i hope this advice is helpful hehe, i probs wouldnt have done well either and you might know most of this stuff after watching yourself :awesome:
 

Dexident

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It seems like nobody really uses neutral b round these parts..

DK is a perfect character to use it on. IMO, almost every time that he was off the edge and you went for the PK thunder would have been better used as a PK blast. If someone is recovering and your throw one of those their way there's only one thing they can do: air dodge. Just wait for them to do that and let it rip. Not to mention you can hit people while they are on the edge if you do it right. It's usually a KO, or at least it gets them away from you where as PK thunder usually knocks them into you, which IMO is not good, especially against DK since his reach is so devestating.

Just my two cents.
 

Flame Hyenard

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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France
When Snake uses his D-Throw, don't always roll to the same side. Instead, try rolling to the opposite side, or just do a "Get-up Attack". Ness is better in the air than on the ground, so more aerial attacks would be great.

Since you are in Europe, I can try to help you out with your Ness, if you wish. :)
 

Dexident

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MoGi - towards the end you used a backthrow, which was kind of a waste, I probably would have done a d-throw which might have led into a better combo or something.
 

Flame Hyenard

Smash Lord
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Yes, Back Throws are better used at high percentages such as 120-130% (Snake is ridiculously heavy, so 140% is my preference. He can die earlier if the player's DI is bad).
 

PSI Nexus

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
36
Location
Virginia
Would like to hear opinions on this Ness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6RW7mje1os

It's not me, but I think it's pretty awesome barring a few mistakes.
God, that Ness has a lot of work. He does a lot of good things. But he makes so much more awful decisions. Overuse of his specials, PK Fire was working for him, but the use of PK Flash and PK Thunder 1 were highly counterproductive. D-Tilt use was not needed when you should have either grabbed or jabbed. He stays in the air a lot, which is great, but he gets really predictable sometimes and should have gotten punished way more. Every grab that Snake got from Ness should have been a grab release into F-Tilt for 18+ damage.
 

Asa

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Hawaii
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDkNG4OrQjs&list=PL08785F7535D68688&index=6&feature=plpp_video

This is the most recent tournament I have been to. I know I need quite some work.
I would like any advice that I can get please.
and i'll do my part to help out others too :)

k so..



1. you're using pk fire unsafely, a lot (:10, :17, :19, :34, 2:53). it's not really that good. you were getting punished with eggs, grabs, etc. often times you can use it just out of range of being punished to bait something, but it wasn't being used that way here.

2. your use of pkt needs work too, you were getting punished when you used it (:46, :55 [should've gotten punished but w/e.]). yoshi can avoid pkt relatively easily due to his airspeed, so most of the time you're gonna get hit if you attempt it. when you use pkt, you give up opportunities to catch his landing, which is something that will hurt you in the long run.

3. use of pkflash should.. probably stop altogether. it's probably never gonna land esp on a character with good aerial mobility like yoshi. (1:05, 1:15, 4:16) Like i said with regards to your use of pkt, you're giving up valuable opportunities to get damage from more reiliable forms of edgeguarding. you're just letting him get back safely, and even worse you're getting hit as well.

4. you're adjusting your spacing with rolls a lot, and it's getting you punished (:05, :08, :13, :16, :27, :32, :36, :52, :59, 1:12, 1:29, 1:30, 1:46, 1:52, 2:01, 2:19, 2:52, 3:53, 4:02, 4:05, 4:09, 4:11). Note that not every time you roll you get punished, but it's quite obvious that it's a habit of yours to roll when you feel pressured or unsafe. if you need to retreat, more often than not it's better to space with an attack. especially in this matchup, since yoshi has reliable ways to punish rolls.

5. Dealing with yoshi's eggs. You looked like you didn't know how to deal with them. you were rolling away. Yoshi's upb is an excellent chance to get in and punish. You gotta powershield that ****. I have a feeling that if this yoshi, or another yoshi you may face, throws eggs from the ledge, you'd either get hit a bunch, or give him space to recover safely. don't be afraid of the eggs.

6. You should be watching your opponent more for habits and such. you were using dthrow a lot, and he was airdodging when you jumped at him out of the throw. If you were to realize this you could bait him into airdodging, then punish him with w/e, or you could try staying grounded and throwing out a pkf to catch his landing.

7. you were also sitting in your shield a lot, which isn't good in this matchup because you'll just get grabbed which is the last thing you want in this matchup.

8. don't stale your bthrow when he's already at 100%, since soon you'll need it to kill. if you wanna use bthrow for better stage positioning i suggest doing it when he's at low -> mid percents. you're not gonna get a gimp or anything on yoshi so throwing him offstage liek that isn't really beneficial.

9. around the end of the first stock, you were getting greedy and dash grabbing, which isn't a good idea anyway since you've already staled it, and you proceed to stale it further by trying to throw yoshi, a fairly heavy cahracter, all the way across the stage with an already stale bthrow. At that point you should have considered other options to kill him, but you landed a bthrow by the edge shortly after so good.

10. At 2:14, when you get hit in the air with a fair, you threw out a dair. idk if it was your momentum cancel , but whatever the case you should be careful not to autopilot when you're hit. he missed his followup but you really should've died there. even if you guys did trade, you would've lost and died. there was no need to momentum cancel from getting hit by that. another instance was at 3:44, where you didn't momentum cancel but you tried to dair to hit him. uair will beat dair in speed and priority. don't challenge it.

11. there were times when you were trying to land, and you just fell on top of yoshi with a fair. against this yoshi it worked , once or so, but generally that's a bad idea against yoshi cuz he'll just pivot grab you -> uair/usmash.

12. 2:24 was cute

13. 2:46. why would you try landing on top of yoshi? you'd either get grabbed, or hit. definitely not worth a trade seen as you're at 197%
 

JTMerrell

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 12, 2011
Messages
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Chattanooga, Tennessee
and i'll do my part to help out others too :)

k so..



1. you're using pk fire unsafely, a lot (:10, :17, :19, :34, 2:53). it's not really that good. you were getting punished with eggs, grabs, etc. often times you can use it just out of range of being punished to bait something, but it wasn't being used that way here.

2. your use of pkt needs work too, you were getting punished when you used it (:46, :55 [should've gotten punished but w/e.]). yoshi can avoid pkt relatively easily due to his airspeed, so most of the time you're gonna get hit if you attempt it. when you use pkt, you give up opportunities to catch his landing, which is something that will hurt you in the long run.

3. use of pkflash should.. probably stop altogether. it's probably never gonna land esp on a character with good aerial mobility like yoshi. (1:05, 1:15, 4:16) Like i said with regards to your use of pkt, you're giving up valuable opportunities to get damage from more reiliable forms of edgeguarding. you're just letting him get back safely, and even worse you're getting hit as well.

4. you're adjusting your spacing with rolls a lot, and it's getting you punished (:05, :08, :13, :16, :27, :32, :36, :52, :59, 1:12, 1:29, 1:30, 1:46, 1:52, 2:01, 2:19, 2:52, 3:53, 4:02, 4:05, 4:09, 4:11). Note that not every time you roll you get punished, but it's quite obvious that it's a habit of yours to roll when you feel pressured or unsafe. if you need to retreat, more often than not it's better to space with an attack. especially in this matchup, since yoshi has reliable ways to punish rolls.

5. Dealing with yoshi's eggs. You looked like you didn't know how to deal with them. you were rolling away. Yoshi's upb is an excellent chance to get in and punish. You gotta powershield that ****. I have a feeling that if this yoshi, or another yoshi you may face, throws eggs from the ledge, you'd either get hit a bunch, or give him space to recover safely. don't be afraid of the eggs.

6. You should be watching your opponent more for habits and such. you were using dthrow a lot, and he was airdodging when you jumped at him out of the throw. If you were to realize this you could bait him into airdodging, then punish him with w/e, or you could try staying grounded and throwing out a pkf to catch his landing.

7. you were also sitting in your shield a lot, which isn't good in this matchup because you'll just get grabbed which is the last thing you want in this matchup.

8. don't stale your bthrow when he's already at 100%, since soon you'll need it to kill. if you wanna use bthrow for better stage positioning i suggest doing it when he's at low -> mid percents. you're not gonna get a gimp or anything on yoshi so throwing him offstage liek that isn't really beneficial.

9. around the end of the first stock, you were getting greedy and dash grabbing, which isn't a good idea anyway since you've already staled it, and you proceed to stale it further by trying to throw yoshi, a fairly heavy cahracter, all the way across the stage with an already stale bthrow. At that point you should have considered other options to kill him, but you landed a bthrow by the edge shortly after so good.

10. At 2:14, when you get hit in the air with a fair, you threw out a dair. idk if it was your momentum cancel , but whatever the case you should be careful not to autopilot when you're hit. he missed his followup but you really should've died there. even if you guys did trade, you would've lost and died. there was no need to momentum cancel from getting hit by that. another instance was at 3:44, where you didn't momentum cancel but you tried to dair to hit him. uair will beat dair in speed and priority. don't challenge it.

11. there were times when you were trying to land, and you just fell on top of yoshi with a fair. against this yoshi it worked , once or so, but generally that's a bad idea against yoshi cuz he'll just pivot grab you -> uair/usmash.

12. 2:24 was cute

13. 2:46. why would you try landing on top of yoshi? you'd either get grabbed, or hit. definitely not worth a trade seen as you're at 197%
Thank you, sir! I'll try to post another one soon and hopefully it will show some improvement!
 

Eagleye893

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*cracks knuckles* WELL THEN!!! I might start going through all of these requests.

EDIT: I need to help my parents with a bunch of stuff first, so I'll put this off until after work tomorrow (meaning Saturday)
 

NatesBound

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*cracks knuckles* WELL THEN!!! I might start going through all of these requests.

EDIT: I need to help my parents with a bunch of stuff first, so I'll put this off until after work tomorrow (meaning Saturday)
oh the anticipation is killing me *giggle*:woman:
 

Asa

Smash Hero
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Jun 2, 2008
Messages
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Hawaii
Alright. I really need some help with these matchups. Especially the Rob one...
Any advice would be appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1niiY...feature=relmfu
first game (ness vs kirby):

- rolling a lot, you're getting punished with bairs and stuff because of it

- pkt is being used at a distance that is not safe.

- getting hit by a lot of bairs (the key to that matchup is not getting hit by bairs lol. get your powershield game up to speed for this mu)

- you're overcommitting too much to hit his landings (esp with yoyo, don't do that). be more mindful about his jumping patterns before you go in like that.


Rob game:
In the beginning you were just jumping into all of his attacks. Work your way in at a different angle. You were really trying to get in a pk fire but it got stuffed out every time. Its easy for many characters to punish/avoid that move so you may reconsider using it so much.

You took quite a bit of damage trying to challenge rob's uair. AFAIK ness cant outright beat that move so when you hit him with the pk fire you should've airdodged through to get stage control.

Be more careful when going for spikes against rob. It's not gonna kill him till high percents and since the move is relativlely slow, you'll probably get punished for it. Example: at 1:04, you could've recovered safely onstage, but you decided to go for a dair which whiffed and put you in a position to get killed.

Rolling quite a bit in this set too, work on selecting other options.

@ that second stock gimp: robs like to do that so be more careful about your second jump. if you think he's gonna hit you, jump and airdodge, or simply take the hit so that you'll be in a better position to recover.

@ last stock: never give up. never. that just gives the opponent more momentum.
 

Eagleye893

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well shoot, I must have ADHD or som-- OOH! A SQUIRREL!!
 

JTMerrell

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first game (ness vs kirby):

- rolling a lot, you're getting punished with bairs and stuff because of it

- pkt is being used at a distance that is not safe.

- getting hit by a lot of bairs (the key to that matchup is not getting hit by bairs lol. get your powershield game up to speed for this mu)

- you're overcommitting too much to hit his landings (esp with yoyo, don't do that). be more mindful about his jumping patterns before you go in like that.


Rob game:
In the beginning you were just jumping into all of his attacks. Work your way in at a different angle. You were really trying to get in a pk fire but it got stuffed out every time. Its easy for many characters to punish/avoid that move so you may reconsider using it so much.

You took quite a bit of damage trying to challenge rob's uair. AFAIK ness cant outright beat that move so when you hit him with the pk fire you should've airdodged through to get stage control.

Be more careful when going for spikes against rob. It's not gonna kill him till high percents and since the move is relativlely slow, you'll probably get punished for it. Example: at 1:04, you could've recovered safely onstage, but you decided to go for a dair which whiffed and put you in a position to get killed.

Rolling quite a bit in this set too, work on selecting other options.

@ that second stock gimp: robs like to do that so be more careful about your second jump. if you think he's gonna hit you, jump and airdodge, or simply take the hit so that you'll be in a better position to recover.

@ last stock: never give up. never. that just gives the opponent more momentum.
Thank you. I feel like my problem was, I was trying to hard to get to him to attack, but he just kept knocking me back with his distance attacks. Thank you very much though. I will hopefully have more soon.
 

Asa

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the main things i picked up from that match were

1. you need more awareness/adaptation skills. He was pulling nades a lot to parry to attacks, which isn't something you want to do against snake. If he's doing that a lot you should change your strategy to grabbing more, which is a really useful tool in the snake matchup. You also got hit by a couple c4s that you shouldn't have, as well as that one proximity mine that you rolled into.

2. Your punishes need work. You had good SDI on snake's ftilt, but you never punished after. Most of your punishes were jabs, which won't net you any significant advantage. your punishes against snake should be geared to getting him offstage or in the air so that you can hit him more.

3. many times you landed on snake when you didn't have to. if he's giving you room to land then land away from him.
 

P.I.E.

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Nice matches, however we can critique more efficiently with matches you lost (In the words of the great Eageleye) This is because(IMO), it's better to explain why you lost rather than would you could to do win by a larger margin.

If you're gonna use pkflash against an opponent not aiming for the ledge, use it uncharged, and to be safe, make sure they're approaching you from above whenever you do it. If you MUST get someone with it while it's charged,, time it so you can let them try to counter, THEN let it go.


Recovering: people will always loving gimping ness. Mario, pit, and marth are ones you should worry aout the most IMO. If you have your jump left, approach from BELOW the ledge, not above it, because you can go straight for the ledge and catch those invincibility frames. And even if they try to intercept you that way, you can airdodge immediately as you jump, and circle it back to use pkt2 (aim for landing on the stage when doing that though ^^')

Edgeguarding: If you want to ensure you're edgehogging, grab the ledge when he's about to go for it, not the minute he's offstage. If he's far away, the best thing to do is to use pk thunder, because even if you miss or something, you can loop it to pkt2 and retreat. Fair, and nair will also work if you can jump, hit them away from the ledge, THEN edgehog. but make sure it's for enough so that they won't land on the stage.


That dtilt kill in the first video, I suggest simply killing him with dtilt - ftilt rather than spamming it, so that he doesn't have a chance to get back (do it when he's above the ledge of course, lol, otherwise you'll be having dolphin slash for dinner)


I also suggest grabbing more, but in general, place a bit less aggro, and fair him out when the opportunity arises, not just at the start of the match.

Just some suggestions~

:D
 

Meccs

@Meccs_
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Jul 21, 2008
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yeah I've got a match against a Lucas I'm gonna upload that I lost. The guy was really good and it was my closest match with him... I've gotta get the longer than 3 minutes replay code. and thanks, I have to get better at dropping straight to the ledge for edgehoging. And yeah I've noticed I don't grab enough.
 
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