Ness PK Flash Change Ideas

[B’Nana]

PK Flash should never be used, so I need to know what else it could be.

 

[MysticKnives]

It should never be used? Wasn't it's speed buffed quite a bit? Won't know if it'll be a viable move to use atm though.

 

[TriforceBun]

It's always been a bit situational but it can be handy to pressure your opponents and make 'em sweat when they're coming back to the stage (as an alternative to PK Thunder chasing). I wouldn't mind a bit more speed/control to it though. Some early E3 reports say that it seems weaker than before though...?

 

[hermes]

Some moves are situational but I also think that pk flash is should-never-be-used-tier like warlock punch or jet hammer. We need a change :/

 

[Uffe]

It's always been a bit situational but it can be handy to pressure your opponents and make 'em sweat when they're coming back to the stage (as an alternative to PK Thunder chasing). I wouldn't mind a bit more speed/control to it though. Some early E3 reports say that it seems weaker than before though...?

If PK Flash is weaker, then it's not worth using. It's like if they weakened PK Thunder 2. It would be high risk, low reward, and not worth using.

 

[L9999]

PK Flash's problem is that it is PK Thunder but 10 trillion times worse. PK Flash is incredibly sluggish and so predictable you have to be a complete dumbass to get hit by it. PKT has much more mobility, does good damage, sets up pressure situations, strings, and mindgames, it can chip opponents offstage, AND it kills just as good as PK Flash with much less frames. No matter how much you change PK Flash it is guaranteed to be garbage. It needs a fundamental change to be worth anything.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

It sounds like you guys are imagining Sm4sh PK Flash and using that as a basis for its use in SSBU. We need to remember that this is a new game and the move could easily be different. PK Flash is useful in Melee, for instance.

We also should remember that this game is made with balance solely around 1v1 play. Some moves are simply made to be more effective in free-for-alls with many players.

 

[Uffe]

It sounds like you guys are imagining Sm4sh PK Flash and using that as a basis for its use in SSBU. We need to remember that this is a new game and the move could easily be different. PK Flash is useful in Melee, for instance.

We also should remember that this game is made with balance solely around 1v1 play. Some moves are simply made to be more effective in free-for-alls with many players.

True. I'm not sure how useful it was in Melee, but with the one airdodge only, PK Flash may actually be much more useful than it was in the last two games. If you can force someone to airdodge in the air, and PK Flash is actually fast, then that could be dangerous.

 

[Dreamking]

I wish PK Flash wasn't so slow.

 

[mobilisq]

guys, the new pk flash is just beautiful:

https://youtu.be/nqQogNUVYLA

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Its such a tease to see other ppl using Ness in this game. I hope the demo is at Super Smash Con.

 

[Pryze]

PK Flash having a faster arc is a nice buff, but what I believe to be the biggest problem with the move may still be in tact--that being that PK Flash is only active for 1 frame (as opposed to Melee's ~13 frames). Trying to hit somebody with a frame 150+ move with a comparatively small hitbox that's only active 1 frame just doesn't have the potential of being anything better than 'mediocre'.

Fingers crossed that I'm 100% incorrect and PK Flash ends up being at least decent.

 

[cornbread_smash]

Pk Flash might be a good mix-up off stage. Can possibly punish characters who try to gimp Ness' recovery...maybe?

 

[MysticKnives]

Pk Flash might be a good mix-up off stage. Can possibly punish characters who try to gimp Ness' recovery...maybe?

Seems situational but seems like a nice situational move to use to catch the foe off guard with

 

[Luigifan18]

We also should remember that this game is made with balance solely around 1v1 play. Some moves are simply made to be more effective in free-for-alls with many players.

Ah, that’s where you're not quite right. The games are not designed around the "Fox only, no items, Final Destination" mentality, because that's only one way to play them. There's a wide variety of stages, gameplay modes, et cetera, so more likely than not, all the characters are considered balanced by the development team as long as they can do well in at least half of the modes in the game. Characters like Bowser and Ganondorf, considered terrible in 1v1 stock play, probably fare far better in KO-count-based free-for-alls, where everyone has to divide their attention between multiple threats, so their sluggishness doesn't make it too hard for them to land hits, and the heavyweights' sheer power can allow them to easily score KOs en masse. Jigglypuff, considered the worst character in Brawl, suddenly becomes one of the best on stages where aerial mobility, the ability to stay airborne for a long time, and strong aerial attacks become among the most critically important attributes for a character to have, such as Rumble Falls, custom stages made entirely of Drop Blocks, or the Meta Ridley fight. (Granted, Meta Knight is also really good in those circumstances because he makes up for the lack of Pound, lower air speed, and greater falling speed in comparison to Jigglypuff with the ability to glide, several specials that can extend airtime, generally faster attacks (not to mention transcendent priority), and somewhat higher weight.) In contrast, Little Mac in Smash 4 becomes far harder to deal with on walk-off stages where his terrible recovery is a complete non-issue. And much like, well, Ganondorf in general, Ness's PK Flash is best suited for free-for-all battles where players can't be paying complete attention and make optimal responses to what any single other player is up to without leaving themselves open to attack from the other players. (It's also like Jigglypuff's Wall of Pain in that it's best-suited for situations where players can’t deal with it without screwing themselves over some other way (the Wall of Pain was awesome in Melee, where air-dodging offstage guaranteed your death, and once Brawl enabled free-form air-dodging, that was the end of Jiggs' glory days).)

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Oh this is embarrassing. You've caught me with a typo. My second sentence there contradicts my first sentence because "IS" is supposed to be "ISNT." Whoops

 

[-Saltyclams-]

PK Flash should never be used, so I need to know what else it could be.

they boosted its speed a lot, me and the people in the ness chord have discussed it a lot and the new pk flash can be good for covering some ledge options

 

[KingNemba]

Never be used?? Biggest farce. Its the perfect scare tactic. You can control an opponents air landing by using PK Flash above you. Edgeguarding. Or you simply tab B to pop a quick PK Flash to do some quick, minor damage if the opponent is above you. It makes the opponent hesitant. Lots of players dont understand. Its intimidation and for reckless players who think they can challenge the hitbox. You have to use it wisely. Ill even drop PK on myself when an opponent thinks they can squeeze in a quick smash. They get ballsy and i might take significant damage but they'll be dead at 60-70%.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

PK Flash is extremely good now, relatively speaking. It went from being never used to situationally excellent. It can be more risky to go offstage vs some of the roster, and PK Thunder may sometimes rescue people back to the stage. PK Flash, on the other hand... It can be used with minimal risk and maximum reward. It can cover the entire ledge making it absolutely ungrabbable and the blast diameter is greater than a directional airdodge will be able to pass through. Usable maybe about two to three times a match at most, but still usable. Those few times will usually result in a free stock, however.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I wonder around what % uncharged/lowcharged flash kills......i'll have to look into that

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

I wonder around what % uncharged/lowcharged flash kills......i'll have to look into that

I did some testing, and for what you're thinking of doing, I found PKT worked much better. An uair string into PKT zap kills off the top pretty early if they're offscreen. Killed DK at 130% with uair, uair, (offscreen) PKT.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I did some testing, and for what you're thinking of doing, I found PKT worked much better. An uair string into PKT zap kills off the top pretty early if they're offscreen. Killed DK at 130% with uair, uair, (offscreen) PKT.

I'm sure upB/uair does kill earlier, but that wasnt really the point.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

I'm sure upB/uair does kill earlier, but that wasn't really the point.

Bowser dies at 275% to an uncharged flash on the ground of Final Destination. 300% on the ground of Battlefield.
Pichu dies at 140% off the low platform of Battlefield.

Prognosis: not good.

Uncharged flash doesn't have much potential for kills.
It can do a sneaky bit of damage, once in a while.

 

[EGsmash]

Never be used?? Biggest farce. Its the perfect scare tactic. You can control an opponents air landing by using PK Flash above you. Edgeguarding. Or you simply tab B to pop a quick PK Flash to do some quick, minor damage if the opponent is above you. It makes the opponent hesitant. Lots of players dont understand. Its intimidation and for reckless players who think they can challenge the hitbox. You have to use it wisely. Ill even drop PK on myself when an opponent thinks they can squeeze in a quick smash. They get ballsy and i might take significant damage but they'll be dead at 60-70%.

This is the proper attitude around PK Flash. I do miss the absolute terror and uncontrollable crying that a fully charged Smash4 PK Flash would induce, but I think the new PK flash is probably a more useful tool in the end.

Edit: Even in Smash 4 it had a respectably short end lag for the amount of stage control you could impose with it. A common tactic was to throw out a PK Flash on an aggressive opponent above you, end it early as a fake out, then shield the attempted punish and counter with your own punish. It doesn't seem to scare as much in this game, but its still exceedingly useful for offense, defense, and mind games.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Bowser dies at 275% to an uncharged flash on the ground of Final Destination. 300% on the ground of Battlefield.
Pichu dies at 140% off the low platform of Battlefield.

Prognosis: not good.

Uncharged flash doesn't have much potential for kills.
It can do a sneaky bit of damage, once in a while.

While we're testing....what has more endlag? PK Thunder or no-charge PK Flash?

 

[-Saltyclams-]

PK Flash should never be used, so I need to know what else it could be.

1st. It gives people the big spook
2nd. it got its speed buffed quite a bit and it covers ledge very well the fear factor is the best part cause getting hit is equivalent to losing to the joke character using it while your opponent is off stage can be really good for forcing them to recover your way or get hit by pk flash

 

[Specs64z]

You can use it when recovering below stage to scare an opponent into rolling/running away from ledge, then immediately air dodge to ledge.

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

I quite like the new PK Flash. Imagine a harder-to-hit PK Freeze and use it for punishing ledge and landing. I've gotten some cheezy kills with it on-stage as well. Characters like Fox with predictable recovery, and heavy characters like k. rool and ganon are really susceptible to it.