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Ness moveset analysis

Specs64z

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Ness moveset analysis

Damage values assume no 1.05 freshness boost, no staling, no 1.2 1v1 boost, and no .85 short hop penalty.

Jab combo
  • frame 3
  • 2%, 1.5%, 4% (3 hits, 7.5% total)
  • A simple move that lacks power or range, but is quick. Can jab lock.
Ftilt
  • frame 7
  • 10%
  • can be angled
  • Kills at high percents and is quick, but lacks range.
Utilt
  • frame 5
  • 7% (sour) 9% (sweet)
  • Sweetspot kills at high percents, and is quick with good vertical reach, but lacks horizontal reach. It combos into itself and and sometimes aerials at very low percents. The sourspot is located under the PSI spark.
Dtilt
  • frame 3
  • 4.5% (close) 3% (far)
  • Very small range, but is insanely quick and combos into itself and/or jab at even very high percents. Safe on shield when spammed fast enough. It is a great noncommittal 2 frame option. Can jab lock.
Dash Attack
  • frame 8
  • 4%, 2%, 6% (3 hits, 12% total)
  • Good range, quick startup, kills at very high percents. The initial hit lacks range, but otherwise has great disjoints to punish landings and rolls with.
Fsmash
  • frame 21
  • 18% (grip) 20% (barrel) 22% (tip)
  • Slow, but powerful with good range. When tippered, it is one of the stronger smash attacks in the game. Has high endlag. Is usually the optimal punish out of a jab lock at the ledge.
  • Reflects projectiles with a 2x multiplier, making it the strongest reflector in terms of raw power by a considerable margin.
Usmash
  • frame 10
  • 13% + 1% per charge hitbox
  • Fast startup, good range, high kill power, has a charging hitbox in front of Ness on the ground that hangs below ledge for easy 2 frames, and applies amazing shield pressure on ledge. Easily punished if whiffed. This move is easily beaten out by aerials, so be careful when using it to punish a landing opponent.
Dsmash
  • frame 12
  • 1%, 10% + 1% per charge box
  • Decent startup, decent range, high kill power, has a charging hitbox behind Ness that hangs below ledge for easy 2 frames, and applies amazing shield pressure on ledge. Cooldown is practically nonexistent, making it a very safe move overall.

Note: all of Ness’s aerials autocancel out of short hop.
Nair
  • frame 5
  • 11% (initial) 7% (late)
  • 8 frames landing lag
  • Extremely fast, almost no cooldown, disjointed, kills at high percents. Can be used twice in a single shorthop. Safe on shield when spaced. Hits on both sides, making it Ness’s best OOS option.
Fair
  • frame 8
  • 1.5%, 1.5%, 1.5%, 5.5% (4 hits, 10% total)
  • 12 frames landing lag
  • Fast, low cooldown, huge disjoint in front of Ness that lingers due to it’s multihit nature, kills at very high percents. Combos into itself at low to mid percents. Generally not good on shield, but is safe when drifting away. Can be used for drag down mix ups into dtilts, jabs, and grabs.
Bair
  • frame 10
  • 15% (initial) 8% (late)
  • 10 frames landing lag
  • Fast, low cooldown, large disjoint behind Ness, has high kill power. Super safe on shields.
Uair
  • frame 8
  • 2.5%, 2.5%, 2.5%, 2.5%, 5% (5 hits, 15% total)
  • 8 frames landing lag
  • Fast, almost no cooldown, big lasting disjointed hitbox above Ness. Has high kill power, great combo potential at low percents, and can be used in drag down combos into grabs or utilts. At low percents, drag down uair -> utilt -> rising uair is a great damage racking combo. Crossing up a falling up air on shield is extremely difficult to punish if you buffer utilt or dtilt spam.
Dair
  • frame 18
  • 14% (initial) 12% (late)
  • 12 frames landing lag
  • Slower startup, but has a powerful, huge disjointed spike on the initial hit. Can lead to kill confirms when landed on a grounded opponent. Can autocancel at any point during startup, making it great for avoiding tech situations or for buffering inputs to be performed upon landing.

Standing grab
  • frame 6
Dash grab
  • frame 9
Pivot grab
  • frame 10
Pummel
  • 1.3%
Fthrow
  • 11%
  • Has high base knockback, but almost no knockback growth. Great for getting opponents off stage.
Uthrow
  • 12%
  • High base knockback with low knockback growth. Sets up for juggles, and has the highest base damage of Ness's throws. Kills at very high percents.
Dthrow
  • 7%
  • Puts opponents in a bad position at low percents, can lead to 50-50s. Ness’s worst throw overall due to low damage and very few true follow ups.
Bthrow
  • 11%
  • Has insane knockback growth, but almost no base knockback. Has high kill power. This is Ness’s most reliable kill move, so don’t use it until you know it will kill so you don’t stale it.

PK flash
  • frame 40 (earliest) frame 117 (fully charged)
  • 11% (earliest) 27% (fully charged)
  • Situational kill move against linear recoveries, as an off stage mixup, an air stall, or as an attempt to force an airdodge. Has deceptively low cooldown. High kill power.
PK fire
  • frame 18-34
  • 7% (bolt) 1% (14 pillar hits) 21% (total)
  • 12 frames landing lag
  • Safe when spaced, but very punishable if opponent predicts it. Follow the opponents DI for follow ups. Can rack up huge damage very quickly and absolutely decimates big body characters. If you land a jab lock, and fsmash won't kill, PK fire is the best way to deal big damage.
PK thunder
  • frame 20
  • 11% (head) 1% (tail)
  • A controllable projectile that can lead to brutal juggles and off stage game due to its speed, power, and versatility. The projectile cannot be interrupted until it detaches from Ness’s body. Controlling PK thunder effectively is an absolute must to elevate your play.
PK thunder 2
  • frame 1
  • 25% (initial) 21% (late)
  • This move is performed by redirecting PK thunder into Ness, launching him in the direction you angled toward. This is Ness’s main recovery move. It is intangible during the first half of the move. Has insane kill power, and becomes untechable as low as 40%. Mastery over every possible angle, distance, and wall ride/bounce for recovery is the biggest barrier to entry.
PSI magnet
  • frame 7
  • 4%
  • Absorbs energy based projectiles, explosions, and ink. Examples include Inklings neutral b, Snake’s up smash, Diddy’s barrels, and Fox’s lasers. It also has a continuous hitbox with fixed knockback, which can lead into aerial follow ups, such as a drag down uair which then leads to a grab. This move can be used to slow your descent or reverse momentum to mix up landings, cancel your double jump for better spacing and positioning, as well as change direction to mix up your aerials. The move has a windbox around Ness when released. When used as the second hit of a jab lock, the wind box sets up perfectly into tipper fsmash. One of Ness’s most versatile moves. Learning it’s properties will be key to take your Ness to the next level.

Neutral airdodge
  • frames 3-30
  • 10 frames landing lag
  • FAF frame 60
Directional airdodge
  • frames 3-21
  • 18 frames landing lag
  • FAF frame 106
  • Goes very far, and offers a great alternative to recovering with PK thunder 2, especially after attempting an off stage edgeguard.
Spotdodge
  • frames 3-17
  • FAF frame 26
  • FAF frame 20 if an attack is buffered
Back roll
  • frames 5-16
  • FAF frame 34
Forward roll
  • frames 4-15
  • FAF frame 29
 
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MG_3989

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Thank you for all this! It’s super helpful! The frame data is great
 
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Specs64z

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UPDATE for 2.0.0 changes

Dair (initial) 12% -> 14% (late) 10% -> 12%

Uair autocancels sooner. This doesn't really do too much for Ness since it already had a great autocancel, but I'll take it.

edit: removed accidental misinformation
 
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MG_3989

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I was hoping it actually had less landing lag to possibly lead to more combos
 

Specs64z

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I was hoping it actually had less landing lag to possibly lead to more combos
I'm honestly not too shaken up about it. 8 frames of lag is already ridiculously low. The yo-yo wasn't touched, and that's what I was most concerned about, so I'm happy.
 

MG_3989

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I'm honestly not too shaken up about it. 8 frames of lag is already ridiculously low. The yo-yo wasn't touched, and that's what I was most concerned about, so I'm happy.
Yeah it’s not a big deal, it’s already a good move and it already can combo. Nobody was talking about yo-yo before the patch which I thought was strange but I’m really happy that was the case. I guess that’s how they intended for it to work and they’re not unhappy with it’s balance. We got out of this patch unscathed and I think we’re still sitting in a good spot in the meta right now
 

Lavani

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The wording on the notes is awkward. "Shortened the landing time after using the move." refers to autocancel window, while "Reduced vulnerability when landing after using the move." refers to landing lag.
 

MG_3989

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The wording on the notes is awkward. "Shortened the landing time after using the move." refers to autocancel window, while "Reduced vulnerability when landing after using the move." refers to landing lag.
Ok, that’s good to know
 

kraw23

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The change to down air confuse me a bit. Why did that move out of all of Ness' moves need to deal more damage? Will it now kill sooner if you land it on an off stage opponent?
 
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MG_3989

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I don’t think so because they said nothing about knockback. Like a knockback buff would make sense on that move (not that it’s even really needed) but more damage doesn’t do much for it unless I’m missing something
 

Specs64z

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The change to down air confuse me a bit. Why did that move out of all of Ness' moves need to deal more damage? Will it now kill sooner if you land it on an off stage opponent?
They increased damage, but it "maintained launch distance", so I imagine it doesn't actually kill any sooner or later, it just offers a greater reward upon landing it.
 

MG_3989

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Yeah that’s what I was thinking. I mean it’s nice to get the extra percent for landing a dair in neutral but nothing too significant. I’m happy about that. Nothing in his kit should be nerfed and I wouldn’t want an overbuff to ruin the character. I think Ness still is sitting solidly where he was yesterday in the meta in a very good position
 

Specs64z

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3.0.0 changes
Yo-yo took a hit, with reduced charge time. I can't say for certain, but it appears the charging hitbox duration was nerfed on top of the shortened duration. While not nearly as safe on shield as it once was, rest assured it is still one of the most potent edgeguarding/spotdodge catching tools in the game.

PK flash's hitbox goes noticeably further now. It still lacks any utility outside of situation b reverses, rare mixups, and a hard punish on linear recoveries.

Especially worth noting is that none of Ness's projectiles got nerfed shield damage while a large portion of the cast's did. PK fire will resume it's regularly scheduled reign of terror.

I predict these changes will have zero effect on mid-top level players, but will greatly hinder low level players who relied on yo-yo cheese for easy wins.

Edit: clarification
 
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127

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With not having relied on yoyo edge guarding much and being able to pull off Dsmash with A out of a turnaround, I can use tilt stick guilt free!
 

1FC0

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They increased damage, but it "maintained launch distance", so I imagine it doesn't actually kill any sooner or later, it just offers a greater reward upon landing it.
I think that knockback is calculated after damage. Hence if the base knockback and knockback growth is the same but damage increased then it will kill earlier.
 

Specs64z

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I think that knockback is calculated after damage. Hence if the base knockback and knockback growth is the same but damage increased then it will kill earlier.
I feel like you missed the point of my observation. Yes, damage was increased, and yes, damage affects the knockback formula, but if it “maintained launch distance” then it’s very likely the knockback was nerfed to compensate for the damage buff.
 

1FC0

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I feel like you missed the point of my observation. Yes, damage was increased, and yes, damage affects the knockback formula, but if it “maintained launch distance” then it’s very likely the knockback was nerfed to compensate for the damage buff.
Yeah I was doubting whether they did that or not. Still they do not have to have done that. It just depends on whether they mean launching distance reletive to the damage right before the move hit or right after.
 

127

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Isn't launch distance always determined before though? I only think so after watching Vishera's videos.
 

1FC0

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Isn't launch distance always determined before though?
May be, I am not so sure either way. I just vaguely remember that it was after damage according to someone.
 

Specs64z

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3.1.0
Jab 2 has the same range as jab 3, making it easier to connect them. Nothing special or game changing, but it's nice to know the move will work just a little bit better now.
 

kraw23

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I use jab fairly often, and I have never noticed it not working. I like to mix up the timing on the 3 hits too. At least it's not a nerf :)
 

Specs64z

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9.0.0
Up tilt does 2% more damage. 5% -> 7% (weak hit) 7% -> 9% (strong hit)
Up throw does 2% more damage. 10% -> 12%
The last hit of dash attack has increased damage, and apparently better knockback, but still doesn't seem like a kill move in any capacity. 4% -> 6%
Down air comes out 2 frames earlier. frame 20 -> 18
PK flash comes out 4 frames sooner. earliest frame 44 -> 40, latest frame 121 -> 117
 
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