Ness' mechanic quirks and gimmicks discussion

[Gatoray]

Here are a couple things I've found to be interesting.

* We've probably all noticed this at some point, but if a player double jumps immediately after coming out of Ness' 3-hit dash attack hitstun they will shoot WAY high into the air. After some debug mode analyzing I can conclude that this is the result of a player entering into their neutral falling animation while moving upwards. Double jumping adds to this momentum. Applications? Maybe a setup for a PKT1 spam combo? I have no idea.

* PK Fire is a lot more useful than people give it credit for IMO. If you get lucky with the timing (or if you just get really good at the timing) you can get a free Fsmash without any knockback. That's a whole ~22%! If you hit them no less than a few frames before one of the repeating PKF hits it will cancel the knockback from the Fsmash.

* I've admittedly screwed around with PK Flash in friendlies before and I see some application potential, emphasis on "some". If you manage to release it right before they grab you, it might act as a safety if you get extremely lucky. I will continue to search for more exploits with this... (what the heck am I thinking?)

* Dsmash can be a good mixup option sometimes.

 

[FearTheTree]

Ok, so I'm fairly new to a higher level of Smash, and I'm still learning some terms, is the 3-hit dash the wavedash into the punch-punch-kick move?

 

[Gatoray]

No, I was referring to just his dash attack. There are three separate hitboxes that come out and if you hit them with the first one they will usually get hit by the second and third as well.

 

[FearTheTree]

Ohhh I know what you mean, and I have noticed that. I usually DjC into an Uair after this happens.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

IMO PK Fire is more useful than you would think from the attention it gets in a lot of Ness matches online(PK Thunder spam too), but there are so many uncontrollable factors that determine a character's position when they are hit by PK Fire that you can hardly guarantee an fsmash.

Also, I really dont think Ness' dsmash is a good idea.


EDIT: btw FearTheTree where are you from?

 

[Gatoray]

Just went to my first IRL smash experience yesterday (SSS at the Super Arcade).

Simna, you are correct. When I hit someone with PK Fire all they have to do is DI up and they are out of Fsmash range. PK Thunder chains are super avoidable. Everything I learned about online Ness play does not apply. His DJC bairs are useless and getting a grab is even harder.

I am very sad. I'm switching my main to Sheilda. Goodbye Ness forums... Goodbye.... :'(

 

[FearTheTree]

EDIT: btw FearTheTree where are you from?

I'm from the Bay Area, but I'm not in the scene, because I play football and lacrosse year round, and I'm 15 so I don't have a license. I'd love to play some people besides my friends because they always want to use
*gulp*
items, and play on weird ass stages

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

hahaha items and weird stages are fine

but wow you live pretty close to me! You werent at the San Francisco tournament this last weekend were you? I'd love to play you sometime.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Just went to my first IRL smash experience yesterday (SSS at the Super Arcade).

Simna, you are correct. When I hit someone with PK Fire all they have to do is DI up and they are out of Fsmash range. PK Thunder chains are super avoidable. Everything I learned about online Ness play does not apply. His DJC bairs are useless and getting a grab is even harder.

I am very sad. I'm switching my main to Sheilda. Goodbye Ness forums... Goodbye.... :'(

Hey you dont have to do that! DjC bairs are not useless and PK Thunder is avoidable like anything else mostly, but there are good times for it. PK Fire can still be useful just not so often to combo into fsmash.

 

[FearTheTree]

hahaha items and weird stages are fine

but wow you live pretty close to me! You werent at the San Francisco tournament this last weekend were you? I'd love to play you sometime.

I would too, but it's going to be quite a while before I can drive to tourneys, and even be on a competitive level with other players at the tournament

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Well, don't not go to a tournament because you arent good enough....that's how you get good in the first place!

But yeah its hard when you can't drive(I cant either). I take it you are going to high school. Does your school have a gaming club? If so you might look for people interested in smash(and perhaps some can drive) and try to go to tournaments sometimes. If not......you should start a smash club^_^.

 

[Gatoray]

Hey you dont have to do that! DjC bairs are not useless and PK Thunder is avoidable like anything else mostly, but there are good times for it. PK Fire can still be useful just not so often to combo into fsmash.

Yeah, I got a little hasty there. I'm just mad that playing Melee online with Ness created a false sense of superiority that doesn't transfer to IRL play. However, I still want to play Sheilda mainly because I really like Zelda and once I get good with Sheik I can experiment with down-b strats (No, I'm not joking). I'm still going to play Ness though, I put too much effort into learning his tricks to stop.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Playing Melee online isnt good for Ness. Ness is worse online. Playing online probably messed up your offline timing.

 

[Double Helix]

Does the dash attack really only have three hitboxes? I could have sworn it was five. Oh well, I always aim for the last hitbox anyways. Down throw is really good. The more I use it, the more I like it. Against Shiek (bleh! =[), if they DI back you get free u-air combos and utilts and such. If they don't DI at all you can get a regrab, and if they DI away, you get to tech-chase, which is kinda cool sometimes.

Ugh, no Ness mains in the Midwest it seems. Oh well, the biggest thing about playing Ness is to have fun pushing this kid to his limits lol. I am going to my first tournament next Saturday, so I will post videos for the Amateur bracket and the rest of the bracket so I can get some critique and such. I am gonna lose so hard lol. It will be fun though.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Videos are neat. Yeah....get videos

EDIT: they are also good for looking back. For instance, here is the first match of me ever recorded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPLq5IseGU

Despite the video info, this was recorded in 2004.

 

[Double Helix]

I have started streaming a little bit, but school and lack of very many people to play and me being "pro" according to friends leads to very little Ness play. Lack of viewers also helps that. In any case...its twitch.tv/double_helix_2569

I will try to stream more (even though I'm on borrowed equipment) so that more people can see (and laugh at) my Ness.

 

[Wiisnake]

Does the dash attack really only have three hitboxes? I could have sworn it was five. Oh well, I always aim for the last hitbox anyways. Down throw is really good. The more I use it, the more I like it. Against Shiek (bleh! =[), if they DI back you get free u-air combos and utilts and such. If they don't DI at all you can get a regrab, and if they DI away, you get to tech-chase, which is kinda cool sometimes.

Ugh, no Ness mains in the Midwest it seems. Oh well, the biggest thing about playing Ness is to have fun pushing this kid to his limits lol. I am going to my first tournament next Saturday, so I will post videos for the Amateur bracket and the rest of the bracket so I can get some critique and such. I am gonna lose so hard lol. It will be fun though.

I'm in Kentucky Double, guess that makes two in the mid west lol.

 

[Double Helix]

So I couldn't get onto the recording setups or the stream sadly. I played very well considering it was my first tournament. I only won one of my sets against a Falco that was newer in the Amateur bracket, but even the ones I lost was by 1 or 2 stocks mostly. I faced Falco four times in bracket. One of them I faced twice (once in normal bracket, once in Amateur bracket). Even though I lost, I feel as though I played very well. My PKT2 angles were really on somehow, and the guy I normally face (and by normally I mean like, once or twice a year...silly inactive area) faced me as Fox and Falco. Still couldn't take a game off of him, but they were a lot closer. The other person I lost to was a Peach. It could have gone either way, but it took me a bit to learn not to DJC into a Dsmash. Why does that hit an airborne Ness? x.x

In friendlies, I got creamed by Darkatma. Pretty sure it was a 4-stock, but I got compliments on tech skill, then (as usual) questioned about my character choice. Ness is just too fun lol.

I'm in Kentucky Double, guess that makes two in the mid west lol.

Can you play people other than Ness? I really don't like the ditto all that much, and when we play I would like to switch it up some XD

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

I'm starting to try and use YYG more often, in the hopes of eventually getting good enough at doing it that I can make actually use out of it. Any thoughts about the best setups for it?

I've been messing around with mixing up Dthrows into the grab game, since generally (especially vs. faster falling chars) if you condition your opponent to expect an Uthrow chain, they may either miss the tech (unlikely though I guess, since Dthrow gives them a lot of time to react due to the long animation before letting go), or tech in a more predictable way. Also, even if it's just a regular tech chase, a good read could maybe set up nicely for a free YYG depending on their percent.

Also, it seems like at low-mid percents when I go for it and either just fail, or they DI/SDI inward and get hit a second time thus preventing the glitch from occuring, they tend to get knocked down afterward....could that be a decent setup for more techchase shenanigans, or in the best case, an easy jab reset to either bat or more guaranteed YYG setup?

 

[Gatoray]

The hardest thing about the YYG (imo) is that the setups and difficulty of execution are different for not only each weight class, but each individual character since getting the glitch requires insanely accurate spacing; everyone's hurtboxes are different.

I've only gotten the YYG twice or thrice in friendlies (I don't go for it very often). One of the times I managed to use the outer hitbox of the yoyo which seems much more safe and reliable than the inner hitbox yet still a bit riskier since the margin for error is increased and more punishable.

I would experiment with auto-cancelled FF Dair -> Dtilt spam (assuming they don't tech) before they are able to wake up. You can get a few good hits in and if you manage to jab reset you might be able to WD back and YYG from there. If there are even enough frames to do that... I have no idea.

Another theory: DJC Uair is super quick if L-canceled and it's possible to send them downwards (kinda like Pikachu's Uair). I would imagine you once again try to jab reset into YYG, as I don't see any other reliable method since they'll probably tech away.

As you can probably tell, I think jab resetting is key to reliable YYGs, we should practice those and learn the WD -> YYG spacing like the back of our hand.

PK Fire used as a stunning mechanic could give you enough time to set one up. However, like Simna would say, you should probably go for a grab or a Fsmash instead.

I think we need to figure out how to use failed YYGs to our advantage so there is less risk involved. Sort of like an option select.

 

[PiBs]

Does the dash attack really only have three hitboxes? I could have sworn it was five. Oh well, I always aim for the last hitbox anyways. Down throw is really good. The more I use it, the more I like it. Against Shiek (bleh! =[), if they DI back you get free u-air combos and utilts and such. If they don't DI at all you can get a regrab, and if they DI away, you get to tech-chase, which is kinda cool sometimes.

Ugh, no Ness mains in the Midwest it seems. Oh well, the biggest thing about playing Ness is to have fun pushing this kid to his limits lol. I am going to my first tournament next Saturday, so I will post videos for the Amateur bracket and the rest of the bracket so I can get some critique and such. I am gonna lose so hard lol. It will be fun though.

I am in Cincinnati Ohio, I will totes get some hot ness on ness action if I see you in a MW tournament around.
Same goes for you Wiisnake.

I do find Ness yoyo decent in rare situations. I sometimes use the up-yoyo effectively if I'm on a mid platform and my challenger is on the top platform. Hard to say though, it is awful but the range is nice in some odd situations.

 

[Double Helix]

As far as the YYG is concerned, I feel like there is always a better option.

I am in Cincinnati Ohio, I will totes get some hot ness on ness action if I see you in a MW tournament around.
Same goes for you Wiisnake.

I do find Ness yoyo decent in rare situations. I sometimes use the up-yoyo effectively if I'm on a mid platform and my challenger is on the top platform. Hard to say though, it is awful but the range is nice in some odd situations.

When it comes to the situation of being on the platforms in that configuration, I have always found fair combos to be much more favorable. Usually, a nair can come out of it or a bair if you are lucky.

In terms of gimmicks of Ness, the most useful one I have found (that I admittedly can't practice often) is when you are recovering, if you get hit by your PKT after being hit out of the recovery, you can usually make it back because they are out of jumps. Literally the hardest thing about Ness is recovering well, because you usually lose after a solid read. But this mechanic is very helpful and usually lucky because people don't know about it.

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

The PKT Shield is not in Melee 1.02, so I wouldn't rely on it or assume you can do it anytime (unless you plan on always trying to play 1.0 or something, and I think 1.1 also has it happen but in only certain cases...I think tourneys and most people now will be playing NTSC 1.02 though so yeah)

 

[Double Helix]

Maybe we are talking about different things? If you have seen the Mofo vs. Hax match, it is what happens when Hax hits the knee onto Mofo's thunder jacket while Mofo is using PKT. Mofo goes flying into the tail of his PKT and stops.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbqze0rnfQs&t=7m30s

I am not sure if that is what you meant by PKT Shield or not, but I have done that in 1.02 before.

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

No, that isn't in 1.02. And yeah it's called the PK thunder shield iirc, we're referring to the same thing. Are you 100% positive that your disc version is 1.02?

 

[Gatoray]

Speaking of the PKT glitches and stuff, there was a case where I lost control of PKT but it was still on the screen. I am 100% certain it was version 1.02, since it was during a session emulated on netplay. I have no idea how that happened though, is there something I'm missing here?

 

[stickmantankguy]

Here's what I think about the YYG.

Landing a yoyo glitch should take just as much as effort as landing a tech chase or a grab read. Sure it comes out a bit later than a jump cancelled grab, but considering your opponent is in the middle of a tech animation, with the proper timing, it shouldn't matter.

I would imagine you once again try to jab reset into YYG, as I don't see any other reliable method since they'll probably tech away.

Jab resets and tech chases, the best ways to land a yoyo-glitch imo. You can't just land a stray YYG, unless you get a pro read. It just doesn't always work that way. Think of it like how Falcon usually doesn't land stray knees, and Doc usually doesn't land stray F-airs, and how Marth doesn't always land stray tippers f-smashes. I feel like this post has little weight to it but I'm posting it anyways.

 

[Double Helix]

No, that isn't in 1.02. And yeah it's called the PK thunder shield iirc, we're referring to the same thing. Are you 100% positive that your disc version is 1.02?

I am not positive the disc I was playing on at the time is come to think of it. I can't remember whether I have done it on my own disc. I have 1.02, but I know a guy with 1.00 and I have no idea what the disc I was playing on at tournament was.

On the topic of the YYG, does anybody know if you can use the second hitbox that you can activate the glitch with (the useless on that sends them nowhere) as a jab reset? It seems useful in some way.

 

[stickmantankguy]

On the topic of the YYG, does anybody know if you can use the second hitbox that you can activate the glitch with (the useless on that sends them nowhere) as a jab reset? It seems useful in some way.

For a second I could've sworn that was how Mofo landed the first YYG in his set against Hax. But I was wrong, he hit him with the weak hit right after he stood up.

I was not able to get that to work, for some reason I always ended up hitting the test dummy twice (I was practicing on a fox, perhaps it may work on characters with different getup animations). If you ever find yourself in a position to jab reset (basically if your opponent doesn't tech), it could be a viable option to just go in with the strong hit of the up-smash to set up the YYG, the only difference would be that your opponent is further away and you took a greater risk by spacing yourself closer.

ACTUALLY, AFTER HAVING WRITTEN THAT ENTIRE PARAGRAPH, I NOTICED THAT MOFO LANDED HIS SECOND YYG ON HAX WITH THAT VERY METHOD. He read the mistech, and went in with the strong YYG hitbox. I hope this helped!

 

[Gatoray]

On the topic of Upsmash... I've noticed that when you're anticipating approaches from above, Ness' yoyo makes a great option especially since the hitbox is disjointed. You can even charge it a little and read the timing if you're brave. I feel Upsmash should be used more in general, Ness players need to break ground in his ground game (pun unintended). Dsmash however... it has it's uses but the end lag is horrendous.

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

Yeah, the startup lag on dsmash seems not so bad though if you hit them with the back end of it right at the start. I think I pulled it off once after hitting with the reverse jab hitbox (the portion behind Ness), though that was obviously most likely not a thing since I don't know that Ness' jab is a true true combo into anything.

Tbh, I don't see too much use for the arc part of Ness' Usmash, it's really weak, a tiny hitbox, and would be kinda hard to hit with. Maybe in some cases like you mentioned, but there are usually better options if the opponent is approaching from above I think...mostly I think that the first hit or two of the Usmash, i.e. the YYG one and the swing that hits them after if they SDI in or you fail it, those two seem useful if they can be landed out of a tech chase / hard read / jab reset or something, since the second often knocks them down pretty quickly.

 

[Double Helix]

The biggest problem with U-smash is the fact that you can literally cover an option that you want to with an Ftilt, an angled up Ftilt, or an Utilt. Dsmash is just not that good due to the amount of time it takes the yoyo to get from one side of you to the other.

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

The time it takes to get to one side or the other shouldn't matter if you hit with it properly though, for the purposes of trying to theorycraft any use for it, I think it's safe to assume that the only way it can really be used effectively is to hit with the back half as the yoyo comes out, so ideally, to hit with it as soon as possible.

From the frame data thread, for Dsmash:
Total: 61
Charge frame: 13
Hit: 12-31
IASA: 59

So while it's pretty laggy at the end, the startup lag is two-thirds that of his Dair; so maybe usable in some cases like the one I mentioned, or to punish a slow attack like Falcon's Raptor Boost or some Dash Attack by charging it briefly until they run into it? I like the knockback it gives at mid to mid-high percents, and it comes out 4 frames sooner than the bat, too. Idk, while I don't think either of the yoyo smashes are very worthwhile in general, I think Dsmash would afford more situational use than Usmash (unless using Usmash to YYG, of course).

Also, Double Helix, I do agree with your point about Utilt and Ftilt being better options than Usmash to cover from above, especially Utilt. After taking a look at Ness' hitbox and frame data again the other day, I noticed that Utilt is nearly his best move in terms of coverage, comes out quite fast (Hits frames 5-9), and actually gives Ness' whole head invincibility for the first two frames of the hit (frames 5-6).....

I'm kind of interested to try using it (Utilt) almost as a parry for attacks that aren't heavily disjointed or distant from the opponent's hurtbox....e.g. I would try to use it to counter a Fox's Nair approach or something like that maybe, but not a Marth's Fair, since the Utilt probably won't hit them after blocking it even if you manage to. This would only work by facing away from them intentionally, so as to let Ness' head block most shffl approaches and/or approaches from above that aren't multi-hit attacks.

 

[Gatoray]

Ug.... well, time to practice my Utilt execution tech. I've never been able to reliably put out a random reactionary Utilt without jumping instead.

 

[Double Helix]

Ness's Utilt is a really good anti-air, as you think. Some people have better hitboxes than he does, so sometimes you will trade rather than just stop it, but at least you aren't a Ness getting combo'd. Additionally, it combos really well into Uair or a grab, depending on the matchup. Utilt may be Ness's strongest move other than maybe fair. That is my opinion though.

 

[Gatoray]

Ok guys, I just recently watched this set again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJgrUQsmYyU

I could argue that Hbox is the most technical Ness we've ever seen. Those Bairs... Hbox could win a limbo contest solely with those Bairs. And that speed, Hbox makes some frame-perfect maneuvers if I saw correctly. If you have the youtube HTML5 player enabled, try slowing down the video, It's really helpful for analyzing what he does.

Things I need to practice:

• Bair -> Dtilt trap -> Fsmash
• Fair -> Grab
• Work on lowering the height on my DJC aerials
• Speed
• Insta-DJC Nair

Anything else you guys think we should practice in terms of tech skill?

 

[stickmantankguy]

Anything else you guys think we should practice in terms of tech skill?

Perhaps pivot forward smash. Work on being able to control the height of your DJC aerials. The thing about it is getting as much distance as you can, and the reason they go low is to shield poke from the bottom. Utilt has invincibility from behind frames 5-6 I believe. That means, if you time it correctly you can do a backwards Utilit to cancel out space animal side B onto stage.

Practice pressure too! Never land yourself in a position to get shield grabbed or hit by another OoS attack. Play safe!

 

[Double Helix]

In terms of things to practice, people seem to overlook the offstage game a lot due to Ness' limited mobility. I work quite a lot on different angles and practicing trading with various recoveries so that I can make it back on stage. All of those onstage tech skill improvements need to happen, but in terms of taking risks, adding offstage options to pressure is important. Another important thing to do is practicing various recoveries. Recover high, sweetspot, aim for them, airdodge onto stage, airdodge to sweetspot. There are so many recovery options due to Ness having a very good double jump. Figure out what works for you, then work on what doesn't.

Just some warnings on lowering your DJCs:
- At first you might be slow, which may really mess with your momentum changes.
- You could easily be too fast, causing a lot of auto-cancels, which are important AFTER you get the low DJC down.
- Different heights on your DJC means different timings on your L-cancels.
- Don't forget the utility of using higher DJCs, short hop aerials, and full hop aerials; just because you can doesn't mean you should.

In general, I feel like the key to Ness becoming stronger than he has ever been is an offstage presence, which means we need to make our onstage presence known. Edgeguarding is very important, and if we are comfortable enough with this awful character to be jumping off stage to fight anybody that isn't Jigglypuff, it will scare some people and make them second guess their options, because if we include offstage and onstage edgeguards, it really helps our option coverage.

In terms of practicing pressure, it may be simply working on spacing or doing more crossups or covering aerials with jabs. There are very few things that keeps pressure on because of how terrible most of Ness' moves are. In most situations that you try to apply shield pressure, it is better to just grab them or return to neutral.

As for Hungrybox's Ness, his Ness is probably only better than any other Ness we have seen because of how good Hbox is at the game. His tech skill is very consistent. Keep in mind, I am not hating on Hbox or his understanding of Ness. I believe that Mofo simply has a better grasp of the character, but Hbox has better tech skill. Hbox uses Ness' hidden speed in the low DJC bair, Mofo takes more advantage of the momentum shift. There is a lot to take from both players.

Let's have some fun. People seem to enjoy seeing low tiers.

 

[Gatoray]

So after going to practice those low DJC aerials I noticed what was wrong: it was my grip. See, I have been playing claw since I forced myself to learn it because I used to main Peach. I'm not a slave to it, but I have gotten used to claw grip for most technically demanding characters. I use it for Ness because I am able to easily separate the control of movement during aerial attacks with the C-stick such as backwards/forwards Fair/Bair respectively.

However, when I experimented with switching back to old-school style DJC aerials with A button + direction, I can pound out DJC aerials EXTREMELY fast. It's interesting how this works, because I don't really know why it works, it just does. I'm now able to emulate everything Hbox did in the video to an extent of precision in execution that sets us apart in the skill barrier.

__________________________________

ALSO:
Something I would like to encourage us to explore is using Z to simultaneously L-cancel and light-shield upon landing. This might be an answer to how vulnerable we tend to be after going ham on the offensive. I've seen Zeldas use this before, if anyone has an objection to this strategy please speak now or forever hold your fuzzy pickles.

 

[Double Helix]

I am not sure exactly how you specifically hold the claw, but my suggestion could be to plink from X to Y to double jump. That may increase your speed if you would like to play the claw so you can switch between characters more easily. I am not sure exactly what you do for matchups like *cough* Sheik *cough*, but if your plan is to switch characters, and you want to use the claw, then you could always try plinking for Ness so that you can hold the controller the same way for all characters you play.

I like light shielding, it just seems really tough to pull off every once in awhile. So useful. I think against most of the cast though, crossups and jab coverage will suffice. As Ness I don't believe light shielding is as helpful post-offense as it is with Zelda, because as Ness you want to be close to them due to your short arms, short legs, and giant head, considering your yoyo is sub-par and you bat speed is a bit slow. It isn't completely bad, but as Ness I feel as though it is a better option to avoid shield pressure than to cover for vulnerability that could be better avoided in other ways.