Ness in SSBU: Changes and confirmed information [old build: E3 2018]

[PK Bash]

EDIT 28/11/2018
I had been compiling some information based on the early November build that Spain and other locations saw at the start of the month, but with the final game already doing the rounds and officially coming out so soon, any future updates to this post will just use the final game.
If nobody else steps in to codify Ness' changes and anything that is labbed upon release, I will endeavour to at least confirm the changes here for the final game, and remove anything that no longer stands, ASAP. As always, any help you can give will be wholly appreciated!
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First thing first: it must be stressed that anything we think we know is liable to change in the final version of the game. However, I feel it would still be useful to have a concrete "database" of sorts of this kind of thing pre-release - to my knowledge, this is the first central location documenting Ness' changes in Ultimate.

This is based on the E3 build and will be updated as new footage comes to light when necessary.

This is not intended to be an exhaustive list of changes in its current state, nor can it be until we see the final build of the game. Currently, damage values or frame data estimates are not included as gathering this info is a big job and I wanted to get this out sooner rather than later, any help people want to give in collecting frame data or damage values is very welcome!

n.b. Discord and SmashBoards user Lochy has had the chance to play the E3 build of the game and has reported a number of changes to Ness that will be used as evidence for some of the statements here. Find Lochy's original post on SmashBoards here.
Also note that I have tried to find the clearest and most useful footage possible for evidence - if you have any additional footage for any of these changes (it does not have to be great footage, just good enough to see what we need to see), or footage that confirms any changes I have missed here, please let me know!
**all changes are relative to Smash 4 v1.1.7**

General changes:
-all characters now have a 3-frame jumpsquat animation, a buff from 5 frames for Ness in Smash 4
-all characters have the same or a very similar initial dash most comparable to that of Cloud in Smash 4
-landing lag appears to have been significantly reduced across the board - Ness included

Ness' moveset:
AERIALS
NAir:
-hitbox appears to be larger and with a disjoint surrounding Ness' hands.
Evidence for this change: confirmed by Lochy during their playtest with the game shortly after the E3 presentation, as well as footage such as https://youtu.be/vX6qUywlnjg?t=3h49m57s

UAir:
-Now a multihit move that uses PSI rather than the headbutt of previous games.
Evidence: can be seen in various footage from events (clearest footage: https://youtu.be/vX6qUywlnjg?t=3h50m9s ); confirmed by Lochy.

DAir:
-move has been sped up overall (might autocancel out of a shorthop)
Evidence: Lochy appears to have noticed this when playing the E3 build.
-the spike is significantly more powerful than it was in Smash 4.
Evidence: right at the end of this game https://twitter.com/Aurum7HRN/status/1006917334202712064, Ness down airs Squirtle at roughly 40% and Squirtle is sent straight to the bottom of the screen

SMASHES
Up Smash:
-now a kill move
evidence: https://youtu.be/vX6qUywlnjg?t=3h50m14s
-the hitbox the yo-yo used to have when charging pre-Smash 4 has returned.
evidence: confirmed by Lochy

Down Smash:
-like up smash, down smash once again has a hitbox when the yo-yo is charging.
evidence: confirmed by Lochy, and we can potentially see how it will work here https://youtu.be/Klpcqm4H3G4?t=1m20s notice that Ness no longer holds the yoyo in his hand, but plants it immediately on the ground behind him, implying this works similarly to the yo-yo charge hitboxes of previous games.
**the yo-yo charging hitbox now hangs over the ledge unlike in Brawl, where it was impossible to charge the smash when the yoyo was hanging over the ledge.
Evidence: https://youtu.be/_CG9cQcT3qo?t=4m20s

TILTS
Up tilt:
-a larger hitbox, with more horizontal reach
evidence: https://youtu.be/Y8OhkzntHj4?t=103

OTHER GROUNDED MOVES
Dash attack:
-has a new animation where Ness pulls his hands to his hips to generate PSI before a hitbox appears, much like FAir, rather than simply pushing his palms out and PSI appearing like in Smash 4.
evidence: https://youtu.be/vX6qUywlnjg?t=3h50m14s

grab + pummel:
-Ness has a new grab animation and a slower pummel (which does approximately 1.5% per pummel).
evidence: https://youtu.be/vX6qUywlnjg?t=3h50m42s

Dthrow
**The angle and launch speed of dthrow appears to be less combo-friendly (possibly as a casualty of the new knockback mechanics + fairly low hitstun) and there is plenty of footage of Nesses trying to connect a forward air after the dthrow like S4 but completely whiffing. However, Lochy has confirmed that dthrow can still be used to combo into FAir to at least some extent.

SPECIALS
PK Flash
-PK Flash no longer puts Ness in freefall.
evidence: confirmed by Lochy
-Much faster than it was in Smash 4. Rumours that the maximum damage is 20% to compensate for the speed buff are unfounded.
evidence: https://youtu.be/vX6qUywlnjg?t=3h50m46s - notice that Pit's damage goes from 45.6% to 77.1%, an increase of over 30%
-PK Flash now moves through platforms.
evidence: https://youtu.be/xtq2wSq8_98?t=1m38s


PSI Magnet properties:
The presence of a weak hitbox on PSI Magnet has been proven.
evidence: https://twitter.com/Le_Fauster/status/1015840587168219136?s=19
-The magnet now no longer cancels all of Ness' horizontal momentum when used in the air
evidence: https://youtu.be/jt3XxvSKHNA?t=2m25s
-Double Jump can be cancelled with Magnet still, and likely all other special moves.
evidence: https://youtu.be/jt3XxvSKHNA?t=2m25s (and also seen here with PKT https://youtu.be/jt3XxvSKHNA?t=1m57s)
-Ness can absorb the Splattershot ink from Inklings
evidence: confirmed by Lochy
-Has a new look inspired by EarthBound
evidence: https://youtu.be/M_Pszs9I7S4?t=9s
**I would also like to note that using this https://youtu.be/DS6W-nx6kF4?t=58s we can work out the healing multiplier on PSI Magnet (or at least guess). Coming soon. (This also confirms that Magnet can still be cancelled with jump, for those who were curious.)

PK Fire
-PK Fire has a new animation which sees Ness throws the bolt with one hand. The flames also have a new visual effect with red diamonds, reminiscient of how the move appeared in EarthBound.
evidence: Ness' introduction video and also seen clearly in-game here https://youtu.be/vX6qUywlnjg?t=3h50m13s

PK Thunder
**PKT2 rebound (also known as double PKT2, where Ness crashes into a wall and can PKT again immediately) has returned
evidence: https://youtu.be/jt3XxvSKHNA?t=2m25s
-PKT2 still shortens after collision with a hitbox
evidence: confirmed by Lochy
-PKT1 moves and behaves similarly to Smash 4
evidence: confirmed by Lochy
-There is now a red arrow to indicate Ness' PKT2 trajectory when lining up PKT1 with Ness' body
evidence: https://youtu.be/jtlUHmonMGQ?t=12s
-Visually different; like other moves, there is now an EarthBound-style visual effect on PK Thunder
evidence: https://youtu.be/jtlUHmonMGQ?t=12s

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Once again, I would like to ask for your help in identifying other changes to Ness, however small, as well as damage values and frame data estimates for all his moves. And if you have spotted any mistakes, don't hesitate to point them out.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Also note that Ness mobility has been improved as he now obtain faster air speed and run speed. It is confirmed by NAKAT, TGG, and other Ness players.

 

[PK Bash]

Also note that Ness mobility has been improved as he now obtain faster air speed and run speed. It is confirmed by NAKAT, TGG, and other Ness players.

Thanks for this.

I'm not sure if I should put this in the main post because currently, we don't know the exact values (so it's hard to concretely prove and gauge, it's a little too abstract) + it could be a general buff across all characters for the new engine (we haven't seen all characters extensively, but I gather this is a trend amongst veterans in the E3 build?). If people think it should be included regardless of this, I'll stick it in!

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Other notes:
Ness can finally DJC like Melee
Evidence: https://aminoapps.com/c/smash/page/blog/ness-can-djc/j2fK_u80r6qBXGz3VBkpeMG2p58Rj

The only reason I didn't use Ness in Smash 4 was because he couldn't do double cancels. But in Ultimate, he's nice 👌

— Sinji (@Sinji93) June 18, 2018

Back throw had been noticably stronger

Knockback on d throw has been altered, making it harder for combo setups.

 

[PK Bash]

Other notes:
Ness can finally DJC like Melee

I wish please see this post as to why I think that Sinji's initial claim was mistaken. Obviously for a thread like this I can only include proven and observable details, and unfortunately this isn't one, as I explained in that other post.

back throw noticably stronger

I'm again a little hesitant here because although it appears that way, we can't really prove it because we don't know stage blastzones, the DI of the back throw-ee, even the extent of Rage is up in the air a bit. There's also the issue of the new knockback mechanics, which obviously benefit bthrow quite a lot if they didn't change it from S4! That also makes it hard to know though just how strong it actually is or if this is another factor throwing players' di off or something. so because there are a lot of variables at play here and we can't be 100% sure I'm going to hold off including for now until we get more info.

Knock back on d throw has been altered

This is an excellent point because we can observe it in multiple vods that there does indeed appear to be changes to the launch angle. Additionally it is clearly much less intuitive to combo with than it was in S4. We do know that it does still combo though thanks to Lochy, but I've added a short addendum on the apparent changes to the move since it is quite apparent that something has changed here.

Thanks again!

 

[MysticKnives]

Very helpful thread.

 

[Uffe]

Holy crap, Ness' PSI Magnet now has a weak attack added to it? Probably to stop people who might grab him after he absorbs projectile.

 

[MysticKnives]

Holy crap, Ness' PSI Magnet now has a weak attack added to it? Probably to stop people who might grab him after he absorbs projectile.

Yup. I think his PSI Magnet functions a bit more like Lucas' now.

 

[Uffe]

Yup. I think his PSI Magnet functions a bit more like Lucas' now.

I've noticed that sometimes I'll absorb a projectile in Sm4sh, and sometimes I end up getting grabbed or hit out of my PSI Magnet afterward. So this is looking good. I have a new idea for this now, but it's probably not practical. So I'll wait to test it out.

 

[hermes]

I wonder if our new up air is as amazing as the old one. Bair also did 11% instead of 15%

 

[Uffe]

I wonder if our new up air is as amazing as the old one. Bair also did 11% instead of 15%

Did you take staling or sour-spot into consideration? I don't know if a four player Smash non-team battle changes percentage, but a video I saw, Ness' bair did 15.8%.

 

[hermes]

Ah thank you. Completely forgot about the damage change. (Yay our aerials seem to be op again)

 

[MysticKnives]

It does change. Moves in general for every character do more damage in 1v1

 

[DPM15]

I'd like to say I'm hyped for djc's making a return, BUT I will believe it when I see it.

 

[Fire Tactician]

What's happening here with PSI Magnet? Is it absorbing Snake's non-energy projectiles or are they considered energy now?

 

[grizby2]

What's happening here with PSI Magnet? Is it absorbing Snake's non-energy projectiles or are they considered energy now?

the grenade itself isn't energy, but the explosion from it IS! :D
I believe ness can still do this in smash 4. similar to G&W being able to bucket the explosions from other non-energy projectiles.

 

[PK Bash]

What's happening here with PSI Magnet? Is it absorbing Snake's non-energy projectiles or are they considered energy now?

Just to add on to what Grizby's already said, it appears that Ness' PSI Magnet can't absorb every projectile (https://youtu.be/M_Pszs9I7S4?t=9s, which I appreciate isn't the best example but it's the best I've got - I feel like we've seen Ivysaur's Razor Leaf go through it but I can't find the footage right now). I don't think anything here has changed with regards to PSI Magnet - as Grizby says, it's probably the properties on Snake's projectiles, i.e. the bombs are physical but the explosions are energy, similar to Link's bombs in Smash 4 if you want something to compare it to.

Of course, if anyone finds anything that indicates something has changed on PSI Magnet itself, it will be covered here.

Naturally, projectile interactions with PSI Magnet are going to be one of the first things Ness players everywhere will be labbing the second the game drops, so we'll hopefully have a more conclusive answer for this question ASAP!

 

[Marxally]

I have so much hope for Ness in Ultimate! Aside form being faster ans stronger, he looks fresh asf!!

 

[hermes]

His up air is just as good? Can we approach with it safely?

 

[PK Bash]

His up air is just as good? Can we approach with it safely?

NAKAT seems to think so. https://youtu.be/3Y6bXpZs8M8?t=8m48s Still a safe landing tool, and he spoke about it a bit before even this part of the video (about how you can rise from below the ledge with it and not get punished if spaced), and also again here https://youtu.be/3Y6bXpZs8M8?t=10m53s where he says "it's better" than in Smash 4.
So encouraging signs: the move's clearly still good. We possibly might lose some options, but at least one of the most important uses for it (landing) that we thought we may lose is still intact, and it will probably have a few new applications too. Guess will see what happens.

 

[DPM15]

If there was ever any doubt, SSBU Ness will be better than SSB4 Ness without question and SSB4 Ness was already a great fighter to begin with.

 

[hermes]

NAKAT seems to think so. https://youtu.be/3Y6bXpZs8M8?t=8m48s Still a safe landing tool, and he spoke about it a bit before even this part of the video (about how you can rise from below the ledge with it and not get punished if spaced), and also again here https://youtu.be/3Y6bXpZs8M8?t=10m53s where he says "it's better" than in Smash 4.
So encouraging signs: the move's clearly still good. We possibly might lose some options, but at least one of the most important uses for it (landing) that we thought we may lose is still intact, and it will probably have a few new applications too. Guess will see what happens.

Its great to hear! Animation wasnt looking as beefy and I feared that it was a better palutena up air. Thanks my hunk

If there was ever any doubt, SSBU Ness will be better than SSB4 Ness without question and SSB4 Ness was already a great fighter to begin with.

Im not sure with our recovery. Its worse and more punishing.