Ness feels nerfed??

Kirby Phelps (PK)

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I've been a Ness main for a while, so I've gotten how he feels ingrained in my mind and fingertips. I've been trying to get a hang of Ness once again in this game and I wanna ask if anyone else thinks that they nerfed him in some areas. It feels like his b-air and d-air have been nerfed. I especially noticed it with b-air, it just doesn't feel as powerful upon impact and they don't go as far. With d-air, it also doesn't feel as powerful on impact but it also feels like the timing is slightly off somehow. It's harder for me to land it on even CPUs in training. It might just be me needing to get used to Smash3DS's mechanics? But I've also noticed his dash and f-air are different too. They used to do multi-hits and kind of lock the opponent inside the sparkles, but now they push them. This is a huge deal for me because now it's much harder for me to follow up with a grab or something because they're too far away. His PK Fire also doesn't seem to do nearly as great a job locking people inside the fire as it used to. But even though he feels nerfed (which is silly because Ness is already lowish tier in Brawl), I keep hearing from people that he got a huge buff. But I'm not seeing it so far.

EDIT: Okay, Ness's d-air was definitely, definitely nerfed. I was fighting a Sheik at around 95% or higher. I managed to do the d-air on her and meteor her. In Brawl, she would've been done, no questions asked. But instead, she just calmly jumped back up and up-B'd herself to safety.
 
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Ganreizu

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Bair traded power for insane speed.

Dair is "nerfed" through lack of cstick.

Consider moves that were previously terrible (all of his b moves...), and the viability of his customs. Ness was buffed.
 
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Kirby Phelps (PK)

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I haven't been paying attention to customs. I've only used his default moves especially since customs can't be used online. Should I care about customs?
 

Code Bread

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His dair is pretty difficult to sweetspot. And I don't use Ness often in other games, but it feels like it comes out slower than before. I completely dig bair's changes. Even sourspot'd keeps opponents at bay. Dash attack and fair push opponents back because all multihit attacks do that now. I think the intention behind it was so disallow followups. But they can be followed on. If you think Ness isn't viable now, check out some footage of NAKAT. Otherwise, you're just gonna have to get used to his changes, I guess.

That's why I like that I always happen to find a new main in different titles. I never notice the buff:nerf ratio.
 

CoolPalMitch

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I've been having somewhat of an issue with Thunder 2. Sometimes when I aim for the ledge, Ness just bounces off of it like I hit a solid wall. It hasn't necessarily been "nerfed" in my eyes, but it feels a lot stingier when it comes to using it near walls and ledges.

Other than that, I don't really see how he's been nerfed. I guess I don't like how they seem to have shrunk his Dair's sweetspot, but that's the only other thing I can think of.
 

joniho

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I've been having somewhat of an issue with Thunder 2. Sometimes when I aim for the ledge, Ness just bounces off of it like I hit a solid wall. It hasn't necessarily been "nerfed" in my eyes, but it feels a lot stingier when it comes to using it near walls and ledges.
More like buffed:

 

Kirby Phelps (PK)

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Okay, I tried that several times and it doesn't work. Can anyone else do it?

EDIT: Okay, Ness's d-air was definitely, definitely nerfed. I was fighting a Sheik at around 95% or higher. I managed to do the d-air on her and meteor her. In Brawl, she would've been done, no questions asked. But instead, she just calmly jumped back up and up-B'd herself to safety.
 
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Psi Sig

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the moment you bounce off up-b again, you will know if you bounce if the aura of thunder is gone, its a small window, before you go into free fall
 

Swedish_Otaku

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Dair is "nerfed" through lack of cstick.
No...

Yes, some things are nerfed. I made a thread about this and his dair is so hard to use now. And it pisses me off cause it's one of my favorite moves with Ness in previous games. Now I hit like once in 25 tries against a CPU that's just trying to get back on stage. To get a spike you gotta be super precise and opponent have to have like 75%.

Here's my thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/thoughts-on-ness.370985/
 

Swedish_Otaku

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Dair had some slow *** start up speed in other games, especially melee.
I feel like it's faster and easier to hit.
How the hell? There is a different animation. That I kinda like but I much prefer the direct straight and solid hit that he does in other games. If I'm not mistaken he could spike someone to the ground at almost any percent. It is very very hard to hit and feels much weaker. Can you explain to us how you do to hit with it?

Here's a video of me doing it to Ganondorf a long time ago in Melee. In other games I hit with it 90% of the time, in 4 it's like 10% of the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JzQWNA6KRk
 

ELRACj

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For me personally I didn't really like how Ness played in brawl and i preferred lucas instead. But in this game for some reason he just seems right. To where 2 stocking lvl 9 AI's (I'm not a pro so if this is impressive for me) and and not even getting touched is a thing for me. It might be that he got buffed in a way that doesn't help you. Right now I am maining ness and doing way better than i have with any character. Maybe you try looking at your combos or the way you use him differently.
 

Shaky

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Buffs: PK Thunder (1/2), recovery wise and damagewise
Magnet (bigger healbox and windbox, faster),
PK Flash (pretty much shield breaks if you hit the full thing but otherwise unchanged),
PK Fire (less lag; pk fire has never guaranteed that people stay in it, it was easy to get out of it in brawl if you knew what to do),
Nair (bigger hitbox),
fair (cannot SDI it anymore though range is a little worse, overall better imo though)
uair (different hitbox properties but mostly unchanged)
dtilt (bigger hitbox behind you, seems same in front)
utilt (bigger hitbox)
dash attack (has more shield stun when lands which means you won't get punished for it 100% of the time like in brawl)
dsmash: (multi-hit, more knock back)
bat (actually kills early now if you land a hit, otherwise unchanged)
dthrow = follow-up 100% of the time if you know what you're doing, unlike brawl where it was 0% of the time if the opponent just airdodged

Nerfs:
Dair (everything about it)
bair (less kill power but more range)
grab ( pivot is slower, dash grab has more lag, standing grab is bigger though) Ness had the best frame data grab-wise in brawl so I'm not surprised some of that got nerfed.

The stuff I didn't mention looks unchanged to me or only very slightly changed to the point that it doesn't affect gameplay. If you take into account custom moves then all of his b moves besides pk thunder have better variations as custom. Having all that said I think it's safe to say Ness got a nice buff this game.
 

Eagleye893

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Dsmash was changed also in the ANGLE of knockback (nearly parallel to ground), which is a big plus.
USmash I feel is the only other nerf, but it wasn't really a good move in any game besides melee with the jacket.

Shaky hit the money on what I was going to say for all the other moves, though I personally feel that the changes to BAir are not a nerf.
 

Scizor44

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Is anyone else having a hard time believing that pk fire is actually viable? Whenever I use it on a good player they just jump over it and punish me. Too much lag.
 

NocturnalQuill

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Considering where he was before, I would argue that Ness is more viable than he's ever been. The only moves that feel nerefd are dair and bair, but honestly he'd be op as hell if they weren't. It's hard to explain, but Ness just flow better than he did in previous games.
 

Man Li Gi

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Please don't make statements like that where you can't explain. Since I have yet to play the game and plan on playing on the Wii U exclusively (until the "New" 3ds makes an appearance), I can only take what has been put out there. Furthermore, my pessimistic attitude and my inability to ignore details makes me unable to see past nerfs for the sense of balancing. Why not buff everyone to an insane degree instead of taking away tools from characters? Lowering the potential of anything results in a total lower yield.
 

PK Gaming

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I feel like they changed PK Flash in some other capacity (range or speed?) because i'm actually hitting opponents with it, unlike in Brawl.
 

NocturnalQuill

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Please don't make statements like that where you can't explain. Since I have yet to play the game and plan on playing on the Wii U exclusively (until the "New" 3ds makes an appearance), I can only take what has been put out there. Furthermore, my pessimistic attitude and my inability to ignore details makes me unable to see past nerfs for the sense of balancing. Why not buff everyone to an insane degree instead of taking away tools from characters? Lowering the potential of anything results in a total lower yield.
I wish I had concrete numbers to back this up too, but truth be told Ness got a lot of very subtle but noticeable buffs. I'm pretty sure PK fire has slightly less lag, f air has just a little more range, PK flash moves just a pinch faster, etc. We'll need more testing to determine just how much he was improved.
 
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thesage

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Aerials:

Fair is less disjointed but has more overall range since he leans forward.
Bair has increased range and speed, but less ko power. Ness's aerial physics make it kind of wonky to hit with this move however. His short hop is a bit too high IMO.
Dair is a piece of crap. Horrible move now. It got disjointed range and in return it's knockback and speed were nerfed tremendously.
Uair has a better hitbox and animation.
Nair might have better range but doesn't last as long. You can use nair to trade with some up-b moves for an easy edgeguard (RIP Mario). You can do double sh nair. I suck at doing double sh aerials, but I think this is the only possible double sh aerial. Another MAY be sh bair -> nair.

Ground Moves:

F-tilt is actually useful now with the quick pivot stuff.
D-tilt trips. No range.
U-tilt still has no horizontal range.
Bat is still a bit too slow, but is a powerful punish if you have the opportunity to land it.
Yoyos are significantly buffed and actually have knockback now. I am loving U-smash's hitbox. They are a bit too slow though.

Specials:

Pkt juggling appears to be good. Reduced endlag makes it significantly safer. The controls are smooth.
Pk fire has some easy followups since it forces the opponent to shield if they get hit by it. Make sure you only try to use it if they commit to something. You can't really use this move in neutral since they can just jump over it.
Pk flash sucks.
Psi magnet can still have the absorb lag cancelled. No longer stalls in the air. Still situationally useful.
Haven't used the customs yet.

Throws:

D-throw is for combos.
U-throw is good for setting up pkt juggles.
F-throw is good for throwing people offstage at low percents.
B-throw has ko power. Generally it kos most people at 120%. 140% is a kill for sure.
 
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