Ness and Lucas death-grab list. (VERY IMPORTANT. READ NOW!)

[AdmantNESS]

Well, I read this thread here:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=17380&page=1

And if I read it right, Ness can instantly footstool after a grab release without the break-out animation with whoever grabbed him flinching because of the footstool. Someone made a thread here about that topic: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178539

With my thoughts here and thread highlights here.
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4800068&postcount=6

Of course, it needs more research. And I hope I read it thoroughly enough.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Okay I tested the fox running upsmash is wrong pit forward smash is avoidable with very good Di. Wario forward smash also avoidable.

As for snake and metaknight it works as you said.

You must do this in normal time. 1/4 time will tell us nothing of what people's hands are normally capable of doing. Also snake you can actually jump break kind of often...

Pit and Fox's aren't avoidable. You're probably making a mistake. Lucas can avoid these, but not Ness.

And if it's possible in 1/4 speed it's possible for a human to do it. Especially with buffered inputs.

Relying on your opponent to suck is not a good strategy.

And AdamantNess...if this is true, then I'M ON IT.

 

[Ref]

No actually they are...

For pit you have to DI in a certain location.
Fox just can't do it.

Note 1\4 speed means that you are able to input controls 4x faster than normal. A human inputing controls 4x than the game can read is impossible.

Edit: Okay I'm uploading the videos of avoiding them/ not being able to avoid them

Okay heres one of me avoiding the snake grab : (Edit:No longer available )
Other one will be up shortly... I do have to admit that you must DI to a very specific spot to avoid pit's

Heres the other one...

(Edit No longer available )

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

*groan*

Every time you escaped, that Snake mistimed his grab.

And you have no idea how the 1/4 speed works. It is actually easier to do it properly in a real match because the buffering time is effective for a larger amout of frames!

Anything that can be done in 1/4 speed can be done in normal speed.

 

[Ref]

It's not that the snake Mistimed the fact is if snake has to move the grab will come later. If snake doesn't move he would not have been able to reach with proper DI.

If it can be done in normal speed Nessbounder then just have your test in normal speed....

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

It's not that the snake Mistimed the fact is if snake has to move the grab will come later. If snake doesn't move he would not have been able to reach with proper DI

Actually, he can. If you properly buffer a dash grab, Snake doesn't need to take a single step and he will slide over and grab Ness.

Snake has an awesome grab range, which is why he can do this. Someone like Lucario cannot.

A running grab animation is not an extenion of the running animation. It is a separate animation on its own. By buffering it, you don`t need to do the running animation and you'll still grab while moving. 12 frames.

 

[Ref]

I think you give up to easily Nessbounder. Keep trying to prove yourself wrong. No matter how stupid that sounds sometimes it works. I'm trying to prove myself wrong by testing this. I already did it once with meta knights downsmash and snakes F tilt and U tilt...

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

And fyi: I can do it normal speed too. It's just almost humanly impossible to do it properly while using 2 controllers. I'd need someone else to operate Ness.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The difference is that I'm testing it at frame-perfect level with no room for error. I can see when the game will allow for something to happen and when it will not.

Metaknight's downsmash and Snake's ftilt have more range than and come out FASTER THAN MARTH'S GRAB. If Marth can infinite Ness, then these moves will not be escapable.

 

[Ref]

How were you able to spot dodge properly and everything? You only had two hands... Try to find someone who can operate Ness properly... I remember you saying it's hard to find people to play with because of your location...

Also I doubt it's 30% with the whole stale move thing. While since I'll say for this that you are correct, Even if All these things can happen to Ness. You should just have to out play it.

That's what the majority of True Ness players are doing. Nobody who really played Ness and likes the character so much would give him up just because of this.

You still play Ness I know that but this is the only reason why he is not your main.

Hmm... Well I guess you probably are better at testing these things than me, So I'll
say your findings are correct and what not, Just consider the fact that many people still play Ness regardless of this. You can always learn to get around it.


Edit: You say you are testing it with no room for error... Is this because of 1/4 speed?

Humans make mistakes so it's impractical that you have no room for error

Oh my did we dispute a lot here Nessbounder almost silly....


Edit: This reply is going to be big I can feel it... BigNESS over load

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Ya, The only reason I can operate two controllers effectively is because I'm testing at 1/4 speed.

I've gotten pretty good at it since it is hard for me to find human opponents.

I understand that good Ness players will play it out, but as long as it's possible in the first place I just can't feel so secure when I play as Ness anymore.

I mean I felt better playing Ness in Melee when he was just an all around weak character (In PAL version, Shiek couldn't CG anyone and Fox/Marth were nerfed.)

Despite his massive buffs in other areas I just hate the idea of losing a match over something so silly as a botched animation time.

But yeah. Honestly, human error is fine and all, but the Ice Climber grabs require much more prescision and people still do them correctly.

It really isn't a good idea to assume your opponent will stuff up. :/

 

[Ref]

Aww the reply wasn't as big as I thought anyway Nessbounder I see to tested this well before changing mains so I won't bother you much about it. Anyway it was nice comparing ideas and such.

 

[Smashbros_7]

You need an other person to help you!
Not by yourself, using 2 controllers. Ask a sibling, e.c.t.


Anyway, Ness can escape Snakes grab (but not Ftilt)
You need to update this things. It's to outdated.

Wario can be grab released Fsmash by ANY tall character. Does that stop Wario? No. He can also be semi infinited by tall characters too.

Anyway, Wario has it worse IMO. If a tall character like Zelda grabs Wario, his feet dangle, and his grab release animation is wonking. He flies into the sky, we're he can't do anything at all until he hits the floor. Tallies can Fsmash hims, Upsmash e.c.t or if they are quick enough, regrab him.

Ness=Wario in terms of grab release troubles.

Edit: ZSS can semi infinite Wario effectively.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

You need an other person to help you!
Not by yourself, using 2 controllers. Ask a sibling, e.c.t.


Anyway, Ness can escape Snakes grab (but not Ftilt)
You need to update this things. It's to outdated.

Wario can be grab released Fsmash by ANY tall character. Does that stop Wario? No. He can also be semi infinited by tall characters too.

Anyway, Wario has it worse IMO. If a tall character like Zelda grabs Wario, his feet dangle, and his grab release animation is wonking. He flies into the sky, we're he can't do anything at all until he hits the floor. Tallies can Fsmash hims, Upsmash e.c.t or if they are quick enough, regrab him.

Ness=Wario in terms of grab release troubles.

Edit: ZSS can semi infinite Wario effectively.

Ness cannot escape Snake's buffered running grab.

I just made 100% sure of that.

And I didn't know that about Wario. I guess it's nice to know Ness and Lucas have company.

Isn't it ironic that it's the same villain who they were involved in during SSE? Hah. Ness must have given him the grab release cooties. Or vice-versa,

 

[noe3]

Well this was the steak through the heart, Brawl is dead to me.

 

[Gaussis]

It is curious how grab-releases are our troubles these days. Then again, Wario is doing well despite this. Ness should be fine.

EDIT: I don't trust the 1/4 speed for buffered testing. It seems that the buffer works exactly as Ref describes it, 4x the normal buffer speed (which iirc was 13 frames).

 

[Dekar173]

Ya, The only reason I can operate two controllers effectively is because I'm testing at 1/4 speed.

I've gotten pretty good at it since it is hard for me to find human opponents.

I understand that good Ness players will play it out, but as long as it's possible in the first place I just can't feel so secure when I play as Ness anymore.

I mean I felt better playing Ness in Melee when he was just an all around weak character (In PAL version, Shiek couldn't CG anyone and Fox/Marth were nerfed.)

Despite his massive buffs in other areas I just hate the idea of losing a match over something so silly as a botched animation time.

But yeah. Honestly, human error is fine and all, but the Ice Climber grabs require much more prescision and people still do them correctly.

It really isn't a good idea to assume your opponent will stuff up. :/

The only assumption I'm making about these others players isn't the fact that they'll mess up, it's the fact that they're human and have souls, and if it's such an issue it'll be banned to an extent

 

[Kitamerby]

Well, this really sucks. >.>

Don't get grabbed.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

It is curious how grab-releases are our troubles these days. Then again, Wario is doing well despite this. Ness should be fine.

EDIT: I don't trust the 1/4 speed for buffered testing. It seems that the buffer works exactly as Ref describes it, 4x the normal buffer speed (which iirc was 13 frames).

The buffer time in 1/4 speed is the same timing as normal speed, but not the same frame amount.

At x1 speed, it's 13 frames, but at x4 speed it may only be 6.

It's actually easier to buffer these inputs at x1 speed.

 

[Gaussis]

The buffer time in 1/4 speed is the same timing as normal speed, but not the same frame amount.

At x1 speed, it's 13 frames, but at x4 speed it may only be 6.

It's actually easier to buffer these inputs at x1 speed.

Wouldn't this mean that it is less possible/much harder to time your tested results at 1x speed?

I'm not saying that the opponent wouldn't know or even learn it. I am saying that it is no reason to fear using a character just because the opponent can do something from the grab release. If they have to, they will eventually, but you shouldn't stray away from Ness if you like using him.

 

[Levitas]

Unless you get to the point where you're always facing utilitarian opponents who will use whatever tactics it takes to win. Then you should find that utilitarian path yourself.

I'm too dumb to figure out that other characters are better than Ness, though.

 

[thesage]

Honestly if you 2nd mk then your set against Marth >_>;

Honestly my Ness is much better than my MK I just play him to cp marths and snakes >_>;

 

[Uffe]

Honestly if you 2nd mk then your set against Marth >_>;

Honestly my Ness is much better than my MK I just play him to cp marths and snakes >_>;

I want to play you. <_<

 

[thesage]

Come to a md/va tournament. We're the best region yayuhz

 

[Uffe]

Looks like it's not happening then.

 

[Goodstyle]

Wario's isn't an infinite grab release on Ness, but it is an Fsmash.

Smashbros_7 is correct, Wario does have grab release troubles too.
Ness, Lucas now Wario. Who else Sakurai, WHO ELSE!

 

[thesage]

A lot of people do. Yoshi vs. Mk on fd LOL. I'm thinking of learning yoshi just to cp there.

 

[Earthbound360]

If people crack the instant grab break thing, it will end this all.
BTW, Pit should be no problem for Ness even if he can grab fsmash Ness. You an smash DI the first hit and survive.

 

[cHooKay]

<reads the first post and throws his controller on the floor>
Man, and from reading that only reveals the flaws of brawl, and how sakurai really didn't want this game intended for competitive play, which doesn't make scence seeing as if the gameplay of the smash series is just begging for that.

After taking out many of the advance techs from 64 and melee, how in the world did sakurai missed something like this. When i first bought this game, i was already testing if some of the characters that i intended on using would be able to chain grab.....

It seems like a careless one to miss, a really careless one... brawl in its soul is really like what link and zelda are through out the zelda series; brawl is just a careless reincarnation of melee (not saying that link and zelda are careless characters)....

I know I may not be able to create a game like smash in my lifetime, but i mean if i were on the team, i would've suggested more gameplay mechanics that would break this game away from melee besides the horrible mechanics of tripping, SUCH AS A COUNTER SYSTEM, especially for grabbing. Hey, if countering grabs can work in some games like Soul calibur Series even many wrestling games, why not brawl. As long as its balanced out, and semi hard to do, it wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Hopefully nintendo can make someone else the director of smash, someone who can actually appeal towards competitive gamers, since the smash series in its entirety is a competitive game, no matter how much you dumb it down. I just don't understand why sakurai would pull from this, he just wasted two GREAT CHARACTERS....

as stated b4 by earthbound 360, unless someone figures out that instant grab break or jump break, ness and lucas are useless. and i was making good progress with ness too, this is really dissappointing..

 

[Earthbound360]

No Ness and Lucas are NOT useless. Seriously, its not as bad as Nessbounder is making it out to be. Dont give up on Ness. He's still doing fine at tournaments.

Ness is only infinited by 2 characters, one you hardly ever see. the rest is just a blow to the face which really isnt that horrible. They may as well just use the move on its own sicnce its fast enough. If its a slow powerful move, it wont connect. It also doesn't seem much more threatening to me damage wise as a basic grab combo.

If you give up on Ness (or Lucas if you play him) because of this, I'll have lost all faith in you. Its like giving up on Olimar for his abysmal recovery.

 

[Uffe]

It probably says this on the first page, but I heard that Charizard has a death grab on Ness as well. Even if this is true, hardly anyone plays as Pokemon Trainer. At least that's what I noticed. So if this is the case, then you really shouldn't give up on Ness or Lucas.

 

[thesage]

NOBODY PLAYS POKEMON TRAINER. NObODY.

 

[Blackbelt]

NOBODY PLAYS POKEMON TRAINER. NObODY.

I used to.


and now I don't.


Says alot about him, don't it?

 

[cHooKay]

falco can CG ness pretty good as well, i was facing an extremely good one yesterday and there wasn't much i could have done. One grab equals multiple Dthrows to a meteor, then either an edgegaurd below the stage or a edgehog....

I'm still going to try, but its really depressing to lose this way.....

 

[PKSkyler]

NOBODY PLAYS POKEMON TRAINER. NObODY.

I was a little nervous because I had to fight a pokemon trainer at a tournament and I knew about the chain thing....Id never fought a pokemon trainer besides CPU...and uh...well he got 3 stocked...by me...and I mean Im not very good at all compared to a lot of people.

Fought another....his main thign was trying to get me caught in bullet seed. He got PKT so bad...one life was a pkfire, uthrow, pkt pkt pkt pkt pkt pkt2.

Yeah....all the pokemon trainers Ive ever played suck. No offense. Not saying pokemon trainer sucks....

 

[Blackbelt]

falco can CG ness pretty good as well, i was facing an extremely good one yesterday and there wasn't much i could have done. One grab equals multiple Dthrows to a meteor, then either an edgegaurd below the stage or a edgehog....

I'm still going to try, but its really depressing to lose this way.....

Falco can do that to everybody, for the most part.