Ness and Lucas death-grab list. (VERY IMPORTANT. READ NOW!)

[EdreesesPieces]

Unfortunately, most characters you can't jump grab escape consistently, becuase most characters have very fast grab attacks.

I'm just mad because, they had a GOOD system in place in Melee and they ****ED it up. I mean, before if you jump out of the grab mash, you will break out with a jump, and if you press buttons you'll break out from the ground. WHY DID THIS HAVE TO CHANGE? NO REASON!!

 

[Masky]

After testing with DI, I've found that Ness can DI out of the release grabs of DK (cargo), Snake, and Ivysaur so that he leaves their standing grab range. This forces them to use their running grab, making their throws into non infinites*. They're still problems, but at least now you can mash so that you receive less damage each grab until you get to the edge of the platform (or they hit you with a quick attack out of the release grab). In addition, some of these running grabs may be able to be dodged, but I was not able to test this by myself.

*Since DK can move during his cargo grab, he can just turn around if he needs to, meaning he will never reach the edge if done correctly. Meaning DK actually does have an infinite against Ness unless if Ness can dodge the running grab.

EDIT: And I noticed the same thing about Ivysaur's grab that Edrees did. It's easier to jump escape out of than the others because it's slower. Bowser's and Wario's (to a lesser extent) also seems easier from the little testing I did with them.

Marth, DK, Squirtle, Charizard, and Lucas are the only characters that seem to have true infinites against Ness (ignoring Ice Climbers and Dedede). Please someone double check what I've tested if you don't believe me.

 

[Wave⁂]

Wait... what about Inhaling? Like with Kirby and D3?

 

[thesage]

There's way too much lag, and there wouldn't be any damage done so it'd be useless.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Well hopefully more people can be jump grab escaped
NESsBOUNDER, you do seem like a bit of a traitor right now

I'm no traitor, I'm just quick to get off a ship when it's sinking.

YAAAAAAARRRRR!!! *swings away on a rope to a nearby island populated by Lucarios*

But in all seriousness, it's like every time I go to play Ness or Lucas, I have second thoughts because I get "flawed character!!" warning lights flashing in my head.

It's like in Pokemon too. I couldn't use Luxray no matter how much I liked it, because I knew it was flawed as an electric type. So I never bothered to even use one in the story part of the game!

 

[thesage]

I'm printing out this list and bringing it to tourneys with me so I am sure this **** ever happens to me. Luckily my smash friends refuse to do this against me in friendlies (even when I ask lol).

I don't have anything agianst infinites if they are applicable to many characters and are a side effect of that character being good/bad. This has nothing to do with how Ness or Lucas can fight in a match, it's a stupid side effect that only comes into play in this one situation. Unless other characters have this problem (which they don't) I wanna see this banned.

FYI, I was against banning wobbling in melee and against banning their new cg in brawl. In melee there were worse things they could do and in brawl it's a huge part of their character, it can also be prevented by knocking away Nana (my friend is an IC's main).

Also: Nessbounder shouldn't you be sleeping lol.

 

[PKboy89]

yea...we're screwed >.<]

 

[GimmeAnFSharp]

I'm not normally one to bring topics back from the grave, but has any advancements been made on this, or am I doomed to fail whenever I fight a good Marth with Lucas/Ness?

 

[AdmantNESS]

Yeah, it seems only Marth and Charizard can do it to Ness. And only Marth for Lucas. It's something that was accumulated over time so there's no topic for it though. Now no more bumping this topic or get NESSBOUNDER to change it.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I've only re-tested Lucas with DI. I have no idea how bad it is for Ness currently, but most people say that only Marth and Charizard can infinite him.

I guess I'll re-test for Ness when I have some free time.

 

[_clinton]

Hey Nessbounder...I'll be the Ness if you need someone to test this stuff on...just PM me if you want me to k ^_^

 

[Ref]

The death grab is silly. I was getting this done to me by a Marth earlier. I actually didn't mind it so much.

Sure this will be a pain in a tourney, but it almost seemed meaning less to me. I was still able to win. I guess if I wasn't it'd bother a lot more.

The key to death grabbed and still winning is hogging the edge and fending them off with projectiles.

I'm yet to get death grabbed by a Charizard. Some tourneys do ban it though. Its the least of my concerns.

My concerns are trying to figure out how to do as well as I do in person online.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Online screws up the timing, so it's useless to attempt.

I re-checked all of this with DI and not much changes. The grab release is still very bad for Ness. Pit can Fsmash him on release, Wario can re-grab with a running grab and then fsmash. Snake can do his ftilt, Wolf and Toon Link can do Dsmash, Metaknight can run-grab and do downsmash and possibly shuttle loop...

Ness will just have to get used to taking a lot of damage/Kos from grabs.

 

[Ref]

Yes DI is pretty useless but does push you closer towards the edge. You can spot dodge the attacks after that aren't grabs I'm pretty sure.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Yes DI is pretty useless but does push you closer towards the edge. You can spot dodge the attacks after that aren't grabs I'm pretty sure.

Nope. You can't spot dodge any of the attacks I just mentioned whether you DI or not.

Lucas can, though.

 

[Ref]

Well that's not very fun to know. I guess we need to know though

 

[handy]

why reading at topics like this one makes me feel so sad... good thing i dont' have to worry about stuff like this.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Just wanting to say that despite all this stuff, Ness is apparently doing much better than Lucas...

Say it with me: WUT?

*shifts Lucas out to third main*

 

[FuPoo]

dont matter. id still play as my main no matter what comes my way. if the opponent wants to play like that, let them

there are people that main those deathgrabbers but dont really play like that the majority of time *stares at Aero*

 

[Fatmanonice]

Just wanting to say that despite all this stuff, Ness is apparently doing much better than Lucas...

Say it with me: WUT?

*shifts Lucas out to third main*

You still use Ness right? I've been wondering that ever since you changed your avatar to feature Lucario.

Anyways, I think the advantages that Lucas had over Ness were exaggerated now that a decent amount of time has passed. Lucas's PK Thunder is slower, Usmash is like an upward Falcon Punch, PK Freeze is pretty predictible, the lag he has if he wiffs a grab is almost as bad Link/Toon Link, and Ness's PKT2 is definately better. I think the only leg ups that Lucas still has are his Fsmash and his PK Fire.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I still use Ness/Lucas regularly, but Lucario's my new main. I just don't feel safe playing Ness any more because of the grab release issues he has.

I've always felt more comfortable with Lucas, so it's a bit of a bummer that I suddenly find out he's considered poor in comparison now. I guess I'll start using Ness more but seriously, he's not as fun to play and I really am paranoid about the things that grab release can do to him.

 

[camzaman]

Traitor!

10Nesses

 

[Earthbound360]

I still think he takes the deathgrab way too seriously. People have a hard time timing attacks afterwards, and the pummel bonus isnt that great alongside the attacks that come after. If they aim for a kill with the death grab, then it's easy to read them cuz they'll be grabbing like crazy. If they aim for damage, a lot of times, a normal grab combo would be easier and more effective for them.

If the death grab was as bad as you've been saying NESSBOUNDER, then why are Ness players still doing as well as ever?

 

[Damax]

If the death grab was as bad as you've been saying NESSBOUNDER, then why are Ness players still doing as well as ever?

because you don't go out of your house.

 

[Uffe]

Well if that's the case and WiFi doesn't count, then I guess practicing against human players is just as bad as practicing against CPU's. Personally if it hadn't been for WiFi I most likely would have been playing really crummy. I think it shows you where you stand as far as skill goes. You see, playing online doesn't always have lag as everyone usually says. I play against someone who lives in FL and I live in CA and there isn't any lag. If it does become present we just hold back until it clears.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I still think he takes the deathgrab way too seriously. People have a hard time timing attacks afterwards, and the pummel bonus isnt that great alongside the attacks that come after. If they aim for a kill with the death grab, then it's easy to read them cuz they'll be grabbing like crazy. If they aim for damage, a lot of times, a normal grab combo would be easier and more effective for them.

If the death grab was as bad as you've been saying NESSBOUNDER, then why are Ness players still doing as well as ever?

Because at the moment, not every player knows what their characters can do to Ness from a grab release.

But the fact is, the possibility is still there.

And most throws don't do 15% (21% in Snake's case) or have ko power. And no good player will grab like crazy. They'll play normally, except that if they manage to grab you, then you get slammed.

It's not a good strategy to rely on the opponent's ignorance.

 

[Ref]

Nessbounder most of this information is out of date/False. Release grabbing stops at the edge and it will not bother you if you play intelligently. A lot of the things you say they can do out of grabs is wrong. Not only that... But if they can do these other things it works on other characters too.

Take bowser for an example. Bowser can grab and attempt to force a ground break then AA follow up. First things bowser's grab hits are too slow to force a ground break. If he does someone he can regrab Many characters not only Ness and Lucas. He can AA follow up on almost every character... Does this mean you should stop playing almost every character in brawl?

Your so worried about this release grab thing you forget it is part of brawl and not only Ness and Lucas suffer from it some characters like Wario suffer from it by Yoshi if I'm correct..... Wario is doing pretty much fine in tourneys...

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Nessbounder most of this information is out of date/False. Release grabbing stops at the edge and it will not bother you if you play intelligently. A lot of the things you say they can do out of grabs is wrong. Not only that... But if they can do these other things it works on other characters too.

Take bowser for an example. Bowser can grab and attempt to force a ground break then AA follow up. First things bowser's grab hits are too slow to force a ground break. If he does someone he can regrab Many characters not only Ness and Lucas. He can AA follow up on almost every character... Does this mean you should stop playing almost every character in brawl?

Your so worried about this release grab thing you forget it is part of brawl and not only Ness and Lucas suffer from it some characters like Wario suffer from it by Yoshi if I'm correct..... Wario is doing pretty much fine in tourneys...

I recently re-tested every one of these grab break combos for Ness and they all returned positive, WITH DI.

And no, it doesn't work on other characters, because Ness and Lucas have especially long grab release animations. Normally, a grab release will put you and your opponent at a stalemate. However, Ness and Lucas end up having to wait several more frames before they can move.

This is easily enough time for someone like Snake to nail you with an Ftilt or Utilt.

Bowser's grab release animation is shorter than normal, which is why he can do what he can with grabs. The solution here is just to not get grabbed while playing against Bowser and Bowser alone. Ness on the other hand, has to worry about a whole load of other characters, severely effecting his matchups against half the cast.

 

[Ref]

If the situation with bowser is to not get grabbed why is it not the situation with Ness? If you don't get grabbed to avoid bowser's AA thing why can't you do the same with Ness?

And for bowser you forgot that his grab cannot properly force a ground break.... Just jump out...

I also believe it was already proven that only Marth and pokemon trainer can do this. Some characters as infinite

Also you have a huge error... Characters do NOT have to put their shield up to spot dodge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......

In fact spot dodging is faster than shielding....

 

[Gaussis]

Also, on 1/4 speed, certain features don't work properly, such as the c-stick. I'm not sure how this influences the testing but I would not rely on it if it hinders the use of certain features.

 

[Ref]

I think we can all agree Nessbounder has worried himself over false/ not well tested information.... Now come play Ness again.

 

[thesage]

Today I found out that release grabbing happened in melee, but only with attacks not grabs. Fox can grab = shine.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

If the situation with bowser is to not get grabbed why is it not the situation with Ness? If you don't get grabbed to avoid bowser's AA thing why can't you do the same with Ness?

And for bowser you forgot that his grab cannot properly force a ground break.... Just jump out...

I also believe it was already proven that only Marth and pokemon trainer can do this. Some characters as infinite

Also you have a huge error... Characters do NOT have to put their shield up to spot dodge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......

In fact spot dodging is faster than shielding....

I tested with buffered spot dodges as well. No difference.

And the cstick is the only thing that doesn't work properly at 1/4.

Also: saying "don't get grabbed" in Brawl is like saying "don't get hit." In order not to get grabbed, Ness cannot use PK fire, PK thunder, Pk thunder2, fsmash, Dsmash, Bair, running attack, grab, PK flash, Dair etc.

To never get grabbed is to never approach.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

And I'm the one who tested this information black and blue. I KNOW how bad it is firsthand. But everyone just ignores me for the most part. My results are not false or misinformed.

Also: Ness does not have a spot dodge with invincibility on the very first frame.

 

[Ref]

This still doesn't explain why people can't do many of the things you mentioned they can in the list. Lucas cannot infinite Ness.... Snake's also isn't infinite at all... Just DI/ spotdodge. For lucas it's the same thing

Also the first few frames aren't that spot dodging is quicker than shielding that you cannot say it isn't. You must test with spot dodging not shield.

If you want I can video sometime disproving a few things you mentioned here...

Other people tested this too Nessbounder and I know it sucks to have people disputing you but the people who have tested this find different results as you

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

This still doesn't explain why people can't do many of the things you mentioned they can in the list. Lucas cannot infinite Ness.... Snake's also isn't infinite at all... Just DI/ spotdodge. For lucas it's the same thing

Also the first few frames aren't that spot dodging is quicker than shielding that you cannot say it isn't. You must test with spot dodging not shield.

If you want I can video sometime disproving a few things you mentioned here...

Other people tested this too Nessbounder and I know it sucks to have people disputing you but the people who have tested this find different results as you

Read other posts before posting. The current list is outdated and I haven't updated it yet.

Go test the following and tell me I'm wrong:

Snake Ftilt/utilt
Metaknight Dsmash
Wario Fsmash
Pit Fsmash
Fox running upsmash.

I tested with buffered spot fodge too.

And for crying out loud: a shield comes out in 2 frames. Spot dodges usually have 3 or 4 frames before you become invulnerab

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Squirtle has a 1-frame jab. After a grab release, Squirtle can jab people before their shield comes up. If spot dodging were truly faster than shielding, you would be able to avoid a squirtle jab from a grab release by buffering a side dodge. But you can't.

What's more, the attacks that I've listed can hit you before you can register any inputs.

Unless someone can get me actual frame data on Ness's grab release, spot dodge and the opponent's attack, I will not be convinced.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Thus giving us yet another reason to research the grab break. Hopefully it'll be figured out within the next couple of months.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Fine, I just re-tested with your precious buffered side dodges and guess what? Snake can running grab Ness before Ness can do ANYTHING. Including a buffered spot dodge.

Snake can grab you, necksnap until you break out, running grab, necksnap again, then ftilt.

This is at LEAST 30% of damage every time you're grabbed by Snake.

If you think you can make a video of your Ness escaping Snake's running grab, Ftilt or Utilt from a grab release in 1/4 speed training mode with perfect execution (buffer Snake's attacks, buffer Ness's dodge) then you're welcome to try. Because it's technically and physically impossible.

 

[Ref]

Okay I tested the fox running upsmash is wrong pit forward smash is avoidable with very good Di. Wario forward smash also avoidable.

As for snake and metaknight it works as you said.

You must do this in normal time. 1/4 time will tell us nothing of what people's hands are normally capable of doing. Also snake you can actually jump break kind of often... if you rotate fast enough.

As for the whole regrabing with snake it does not seem too more all of the time