Ness and Lucas death-grab list. (VERY IMPORTANT. READ NOW!)

NESSBOUNDER

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#1
Ok, so I decided to test this death-grab on Ness and Lucas for each character, just so we know the actual scope of the situation.

I did these tests in training mode with a 1/4 speed with each character, using two controllers. I would first have the opponent grab Ness/Lucas and pummel, then I would hold sheild as Ness/Lucas with my pinkie, and control the other character normally.

If Ness/Lucas had time to put up any part of their sheild, it means that they are able to spot-dodge an incoming grab or attack.

Keep in mind that for a character who can't infinite grab, the chain grab actually does very little damage and progresses across the stage rather quickly for most of them. On most tournament-legal stages, you will eventually fall off the edge. If you break out of each grab as fast as you can, you will take the minimum amount of damage. It's still bad, but it's still something.

So I'll list this in order of character then: This is the worst that each character can do to you after you break out of their grab.

All tests were performed on Ness, by the way.

MARIO: Ftilt
Not much to see here. An Ftilt to the face isn't so bad at all, especially coming from Mario. His Fsmash and Dsmash are too slow and don't reach far enough to hit you.
Verdict: safe

DK: infinite
DK has an infinite with his cargo hold.
Verdict: hopeless

Link/Toon Link: down smash
Link and Toon Link's grabs are too slow for them to get you again before you can spot dodge. The best they can do is hit with a down smash. It's a strong KO move, so it's still not very nice, but you won't be losing matches solely because of this.
Verdict: safe

Samus: dtilt
Same deal as the Links, except with down tilt instead. It's a hefty attack for Samus, but once again, not too bad either.
Verdict: safe

Zero Suit Samus: ftilt
Not bad at all, really
Verdioct: safe

Kirby/Jigglypuff: nothing
You slide very far away from Kirby and Jigglypuff for some reason. They can't run and grab you again fast enough to get a chain grab going either, and can't reach you with any attacks.
Verdict: safe

Fox: running grab, up smash
Fox can grab you again after the break-out, and even worse, he can lead into an up smash when it's time to KO, making for hideous damage and early KOs from a single grab. Try to stay on platforms and avoid Final Destination if you can.
Verdict: unsafe

Pikachu: running grab, ftilt
Hey, at least he can't combo into up smash, right? What's more, Pikachu slides very far when he does a running grab, meaning you'll reach the edge of the stage in record time. One of the better match ups.
Verdict: safe

Marth: infinate
Broken nonsense.
Verdict: hopeless

Game & Watch: oil panic
How ironic...
Verdict: safe

Luigi: nothing
Lucky his Fsmash is too slow to combo from a break.
Verdict: safe

Diddy: running grab, dtilt
same boat as Pikachu, but doesn't slide as far.
Verdict: safe

Zelda: jump break
For some reason, it's easy to jump break Zelda's grab. However, if you don't jump break, she can follow up with an Ftilt, which isn't TOO deadly.
Verdict: safe

Shiek: running grab, down smash
Dammit, even in Brawl, Sheik can still chain grab Ness. Good thing she can't KO too well with her down smash...
Verdict: risky

Pit: Fsmash
Not too bad, not too good either since it happens to be his best KO move.
Verdict: risky

Metaknight: running grab, ftilt, downsmash
He slides very far when he grabs from a run, but he can follow up with either a very damaging attack, or one of his best KO moves. He can even attempt to trip you with Dtilt if he wants. Yuck...
Verdict: risky

Falco: running up smash (or hit cancel)
Eww...but still, at least he can't chain grab with this.
Verdict: risky

Charizard: infinite
Curses on that long neck of yours, Charizard!
Verdict: hopeless

Squirtle: infinite (almost)
Squirtle can just take half a step forwards and grab you again because of his abnormally good grab range, coupled by the fact that he moves forward a bit in his shell when you break out of his grasp.
Verdict: hopeless

Ivysaur: infinite
Just keep away from Pokemon Trainer...really.
Verdict: hopeless

Ike: AAA combo
Not that bad at all.
Verdict: safe

Snake: infinite
broken ****e. Leads into Ftilt when he's done with you.
Verdict: hopeless

Peach: running grab, Ftilt
Same kind of deal as Diddy Kong. Bearable, but still kind of unfair. At least it's not a magic KO move.
Verdict: safe

Yoshi: jump break
Yoshi's grab always has a jump break out. Probably one of the safest characters to fight as Ness/Lucas. Too bad he's considered low tier and nobody plays him. -_-
Verdict: safe

Ganon: jump break
I may need to test this more, but it seems quite easy to jump break out of Ganon's grab. For now, I'll say this is safe.
Verdict: safe

Ice Climbers: FFFFFFFFF!
FFFFFFFF!
Verdict: FFFFFPFFF!

Dedede: nothing (possibly down tilt)
I was very surprised by this too. For some reason, Dedede's grab DOESN'T reach Ness after he breaks out of the hold...and a running grab is too slow. It's strange, but try as I might, I just couldn't get Dedede to grab Ness during the helpless animation.
Verdict: safe (however, you still have his other chain grab to contend with).

Wolf: down smash
his best KO move, but still, not a chain grab.
Verdict: safe

Lucario: Ftilt
I wouldn't expect any less from the honorable Lucario. Always ready to fight fair and square, for the sake of a good match.
Verdict: safe

Ness: running grab
Slides a lot. Ness dittoes just got way more boring. It'll hit the edge soon enough, but back throw is a solid KO move.
Verdict: safe

Sonic: running grab, ftilt
Sonic's running grab has hardly any slide at all, making this almost an infinite. Either way, you'll take a lot of damage before he reaches the edge.
Verdict: unsafe

Bowser: infinite (almost.)
Bowser has next to NO slide at all on his running grab, making this pretty much an infinite. Seeing as he can then belt you with Ftilt, which is a pretty good KO move, I'd say this is a bleak match up.
Verdict: hopeless

Wario: infinite (almost)
Wario is exactly the same as squirtle in that he just needs to take a half-step and he can catch you with a standing grab, making this another almost-infinite. He can't combo into anything from it, but still, it's Wario. It's not like he's Sonic and has difficult KO moves or anything.
Verdict: hopeless

Olimar: Fsmash, standing grab if his previous grab was a running grab.
Olimar's weird in that he can grab you twice if his first grab was a running grab. He can't chain grab you, luckily enough, but he can hit you with his Fsmash, which hurts like heck. Either way, Olimar is excellent at grabbing, so this will be a troublesome match up no matter how you view it.
Verdict: unsafe

ROB: running grab, Ftilt, Dtilt
He sees to slide a fair bit on his running grab, but not as much as Pikachu. His follow-ups aren't too bad either. Dtilt can trip you though.
Verdict: safe

Falcon: Dtilt
The good Captain is too manly to use cheese tactics like this.
Verdict: safe

Lucas: infinite
Well gosh darn. Lucas dittoes just got even more boring than Ness dittoes. Whoever gets the first grab wins, and Lucas now has a glaring advantage over Ness. Bravo Sakurai, I hope you're pleased with yourself...
Verdict: hopeless.

>:-(

*goes back to making his new Lucario animated banner.*

By the way, I thought I'd add that the timing to get a perfect running grab for most of the characters who can chain throw this way is actually VERY strict. If you press Z even just a fraction of a second too late after starting the dash, you'll give Ness or Lucas a chance to spot dodge. NO ROLLING. Spot dodge is the fastest form of evasion available for them in this situation.
 

Xiivi

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#2
Nessbounder, I love you, this is absolutely amazing. Great job. I'll never have trouble playing against Lucas/Ness again knowing this information.
 

thesage

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#3
Soo...

This basically makes Lucas, Olimar, Wario, Bowser, Sonic, Snake, PT, DK, Fox, Marth, Sheik, PT, MK, and Falco horrible matchups for Ness right? Some of those matchups would've been counters if not for this >_<;

IC's don't count cuz everyone else has the same problem vs. them.

Does any other character have this kind of problem?

Characters I think Ness will still be a viable choice against (out of the ones I mentioned above): Sonic, Bowser, Sheik?, Olimar?, Falco?, Wario?

Dammit and he was actually good in brawl too T_T

EDIT: it would be possible to enforce a ban on this. I mean wobbling was banned sometimes lol. Not that it's going to happen lol.
 

Pentaoku

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#10
I think the worst part of it is the lack of skill this takes compared to chain throwing with the Ice Climbers, which is actually pretty tough. I'd say just soft ban this... I mean hopefully some of our higher level players have some dignity...?
 
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Mikman360
#11
But it makes some of the greeatest characters in the game, now the worst!
It takes little to no skill to do this and has massive payback.

Now people are already ditching the Mother boys and looking for alts!
This is the worst day in my entire gaming life. Im too depressed now... leave me alone.
 

Masky

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#17
I agree that this list should be ordered from worst-best or best-worse. Also, DK isn't "infinite", since at high percentages Ness can DI away enough that he gets out of DK's grab range (I've tested this myself). Did you test DI on these combos too?

EDIT: Ness can also DI out of Snake's at any percent if I'm not mistaken
 

Damax

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#18
wouldn't it be possible to jump break if you mash real fast? I'll face this sooner or later and I'll test mashing the button or using the 2 jump button. DI suck in brawl anyone tested smash DI?

anyway, in the worst case I go back to sonic who'll go up by two ranks in the tier list LOL
 

Conda

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#20
****ing garbage. Ness has no chance against more than half of Brawl's playerbase.

****ing ****ty *** ****ing *********** muffins.
Is anybody going to plead to people, especially the backroom, about a potential ban/soft ban? This is ****ing ridiculous.
I thought it was only Marth.
 
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#22
****ing garbage. Ness has no chance against more than half of Brawl's playerbase.

****ing ****ty *** ****ing *********** muffins.
Is anybody going to plead to people, especially the backroom, about a potential ban/soft ban? This is ****ing ridiculous.
I thought it was only Marth.
I am probably going to do something. I might make a thread in the tactical discussion and draft an essay in regards to banning this.

These characters would have been good if not for this. Is it really fair for them to have all of their skill thrown away because of this one cheap tactic?

All the people who got good with these boys have now put their skill to nothing. Once they are grabbed, its one stock off.

I will try to appeal to the backroom as much as I can to get this banned or at least dummed down. I wonder who will help me?
 

Ref

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#24
I am probably going to do something. I might make a thread in the tactical discussion and draft an essay in regards to banning this.

These characters would have been good if not for this. Is it really fair for them to have all of their skill thrown away because of this one cheap tactic?

All the people who got good with these boys have now put their skill to nothing. Once they are grabbed, its one stock off.

I will try to appeal to the backroom as much as I can to get this banned or at least dummed down. I wonder who will help me?
I believe that about 9\10s of the Ness players would like to help you but I think only a few will/ can... It seems people are just switching mains instead of trying to do something.
 
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#25
^^^
Yeah, that's like the worst decision ever.
Its like raising a young boy to continue the family name, but finding out he cant have children. So what do you guys do? You adopt another child and make his last name "Smith" and basically send your first son to the orphanage.
 

munkus beaver

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#26
^^^
Yeah, that's like the worst decision ever.
Its like raising a young boy to continue the family name, but finding out he cant have children. So what do you guys do? You adopt another child and make his last name "Smith" and basically send your first son to the orphanage.
You are quite literally insane.
 

thesage

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#27
Well isn't there that glitch where you randomly jump out of grabs like right after they grabbed you? Like it was all the rage in the NOVA area. First tournament I went to people were talking about this. I broke out instantly from a grab @ 145% or something. This could be the way to get out of this.

*Tests (after aps lol)*

EDIT: Eb360, your waaaaay too insane about Ness, considering you haven't even played eb lol.
 

Blad01

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#28
Ow ow ow... Bad for you, guys...

I would like to see this banned, but that would mean that our down-throw would be banned... :/

Anyway, i use my Chaingrab normally, but not this ****ing weird release grab... But i guess it's the same thing for you (against Falco) ^^" :p
 

EdreesesPieces

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#30
I'm very skeptical of this list's accurac when applied outside of1/4 speed mode and when you actually are DIing away from the grab break? Marth has tried to infinite me already in tournament a few times, and I was able to escape pretty often either from A) Breaking out in the air or B) break out far away and rolled out of the grab.

And I understand Marth's is the best, so it should be pretty hard for everyone else. I'd love to test it myself but without four hands I can't properly try to escape the way I would if someone else grabbed me.

So when you tested this DID you try to DI away and roll/spot dodge out of it? The DI'ing away out of the grab break is crucial. It will give you more time to put "any part of your shield up" as you said since you will be further away when you break from the grab.

By the way, anyone seen perfect control? You can do all sorts of infinites with 1/4 speed on. The trick is donig it at full speed. This bull**** is much harder to do (other than Marth) when the game is at full speed. Just because it is physically and potentially possible doesn't make it broken if 90% of the time we can escape since it's at full speed and not at 1/4 speed.

Sorry I just love Ness too much and I refuse to really believe this will work unless I am absoultely certain we've exhausted every option for escape (other than Marth)
 

Masky

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#31
^^^
Yeah, that's like the worst decision ever.
Its like raising a young boy to continue the family name, but finding out he cant have children. So what do you guys do? You adopt another child and make his last name "Smith" and basically send your first son to the orphanage.
Haha, is it bad if I feel the same way? :laugh:
 
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Mikman360
#32
Blad01, Falco's CG isnt as bad since it's limited indistance and moves very far. This however, is possible for almost half the cast and does insane damage with little effort and is impossible to escape until the end of the stage which by then, you have 100% or more from just a grab.

Faclo's chain grab isnt ban worthy (lol imagine a typo there), but this is.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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#33
I'm very skeptical of this list's accuracy. To what extent did you try to escape everything? Did you try to roll out of the next attack after DIing away from the grab break? Marth has tried to infinite me already in tournament a few times, and I was able to escape pretty often either from A) Breaking out in the air or B) break out far away and rolled out of the grab.

And I understand Marth's is the best, so it should be pretty hard for everyone else. I'd love to test it myself but without four hands I can't properly try to escape the way I would if someone else grabbed me.

So when you tested this DID you try to DI away and roll/spot dodge out of it? The DI'ing away out of the grab break is crucial. It will give you more time to put "any part of your shield up" as you said since you will be further away when you break from the grab.

By the way, anyone seen perfect control? You can do all sorts of infinites with 1/4 speed on. The trick is donig it at full speed. This bull**** is much harder to do (other than Marth) when the game is at full speed. Just because it is physically and potentially possible doesn't make it broken if 90% of the time we can escape since it's at full speed and not at 1/4 speed.
If the person who's grabbed you hits you repeatedly without pausing inbetween, you cannot jump break it. Secondly, a roll is too slow. The only hope you have of avoiding a running grab is to spot dodge.

These tests were done at 1/4 the speed, so I was able to see when Ness could move from his release animation and when he had time to put up a shield (and therefore spot dodge). Against most of the characters, they could running grab him even before his shield came up. What's more, DI doesn't seem to do much. I tested smash DI and just holding a direction on the stick. It still wouldn't move Ness out of the other character's running grab range. Especially not Marth or Snake's running grabs.
 

Proverbs

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#34
By the way, I thought I'd add that the timing to get a perfect running grab for most of the characters who can chain throw this way is actually VERY strict. If you press Z even just a fraction of a second too late after starting the dash, you'll give Ness or Lucas a chance to spot dodge. NO ROLLING. Spot dodge is the fastest form of evasion available for them in this situation.
I'd like to point this out. Unless I'm misconstruing some part of this, he just said that the people who can/need to use a running grab to continue this combo need extremely good timing, right? Meaning that unless you're playing against the top, you'll have a chance to break free, right?

This means that out of a total of 17 characters that can do this, 9 are hopeless and 8 are unsafe/risky. Out of the latter category, 5 need strict timing to continue the combo. So 5/17, nearly a third provide situations with some hope even if you're caught. That means, not counting the matches you wouldn't get into no matter what (the 'death matches', shall we call them), 5/8 characters, over half, need extremely good timing. So only 3 are a threat to really be worried about, besides the ones that are instant death.


Does this put our situation in a better light or what?
 

NESSBOUNDER

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#35
^^^
Yeah, that's like the worst decision ever.
Its like raising a young boy to continue the family name, but finding out he cant have children. So what do you guys do? You adopt another child and make his last name "Smith" and basically send your first son to the orphanage.
I named him Bridget and raised him as a girl.

I also changed the family business to dog racing. *goes to practice with Lucario.*
 

NESSBOUNDER

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#36
I'd like to point this out. Unless I'm misconstruing some part of this, he just said that the people who can/need to use a running grab to continue this combo need extremely good timing, right? Meaning that unless you're playing against the top, you'll have a chance to break free, right?

This means that out of a total of 17 characters that can do this, 9 are hopeless and 8 are unsafe/risky. Out of the latter category, 5 need strict timing to continue the combo. So 5/17, nearly a third provide situations with some hope even if you're caught. That means, not counting the matches you wouldn't get into no matter what (the 'death matches', shall we call them), 5/8 characters, over half, need extremely good timing. So only 3 are a threat to really be worried about, besides the ones that are instant death.


Does this put our situation in a better light or what?
With the buffering system in Brawl, it's easier than it should be. Don't go thinking this is something that most competitive players are incapable of.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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#38
Nobody gets my personalized sigs. XP I need that in the rare chance that this problem is fixed for the PAL version of the game.

Either way, I haven't tested it, but it may be possible to jump-break out of Metaknight's grab, since his grab attack is rather slow and there seems to be a state of non-stun between the attacks.
 

EdreesesPieces

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#39
Venusaur's grab attack is really slow too. I am able to jump break it with high consistency.

I want ALL of you who are worried about this to try this:

Choose Marth, chain grab a computer Ness set on "escape" in training mode. See if you can do it. I bet you ANYTHING if you do this for 5 minutes he will sometimes escape like three to four times. Just try it. If the computer can escape Marth's despite breaking out from the ground, as infrequently as he does, so can we, it will just take practice. The questoin is what kind of window we really have. I'm using Marth as an example because he is the extreme case - since his is the easiest to time for human players.
 
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