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Neon's Match-up Discussion

D e l t a

That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
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I'd actually like to see you vs Tap IRL someday. He's way better in person as proven by his wins over players like Kels, Lain, Ripple, Dirtboy, etc.

I think for now, it's safe to agree that Lucas v Yoshi is solidly +1 our favor.
 

Kipcom

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yeh taps pretty good and he only seems to be getting better imo.

I expect to see him around top 5 or 6 on your guys' next PR

Also I had no idea he's beaten Kels and Ripple. Good stuff to him. <3
 
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D e l t a

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Tbh, I think he'll be no less than top5, maybe even 3rd or 4th. JZ is inactive, Tetra & Lain have fallen off as of recently, Dirtboy loses to Tap consistently, and he beats pretty much everybody else in MI.
 

Kipcom

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Currently fighting pug on netplay (i see you watching dawg)

He armored my OU up smash and then SDI'd to the ground and killed me with down smash during the endlag of my move.
I'm getting Air Crouch Cancelled right now WTF

Delta I'm sorry I didn't listen to you bby.
 

D e l t a

That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
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Currently fighting pug on netplay (i see you watching dawg)

He armored my OU up smash and then SDI'd to the ground and killed me with down smash during the endlag of my move.
I'm getting Air Crouch Cancelled right now WTF

Delta I'm sorry I didn't listen to you bby.
It's okay. Yoshi is stupid. armor is dumb. He can join squirtle under "not real smash characters"
 

D e l t a

That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
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Been a while since I've updated my MU chart. Enjoy.

(+3) 65/35
N/A
(+2) 60/40 :bowser2: :charizard: :dedede: :gw: :ivysaur: :jigglypuff: :kirby2: :zelda: *:olimar: *:peach: :popo: *:pit:
(+1) 55/45 :dk2: :luigi2: :lucario: :samus2: :pikachu2::snake: :sonic: :zerosuitsamus: :squirtle:
(0) 50/50 :ganondorf: :mario2: :metaknight: :toonlink: :mewtwopm: :wolf: :warioc: :marth: :diddy: :ness2: :falcon:
(-1) 45/55 :link2: :roypm: *:rob: :fox: :yoshi2: :ike:
(-2) 40/60 :falco: :sheik:

(-3) 35/65 N/A

* in front of character means the matchup has not been played frequently at high level.
 

Kipcom

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There's already an explanation on the previous page breh, and the point still stands. I'm not making another write up on this.
I did play stingers in tournament and lost 2-1 in an extremely close set (last game last stock etc). I'll post it in the video thread when it's uploaded and you guys can tell me what you think would be more effective.

Peach does have pretty bad approach options, but he adjusted enough in the next 2 games and just stopped running at me.
It's a pretty patient/mentally draining matchup for sure. Game 3 was basically on its way to a timeout lol.
 
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D e l t a

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I was wondering what happened that made you say this randomly lol. Wasn't asking for another write-up. Can't wait to see the vod when it's up
 

KrozoMagnus

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I was wondering what your guys' match-up knowledge on getting around Roy's meaty sword? I seem to be struggling to get in, as he can just CC PKF and swipe most other approaches I make. Should I just wait for him to mess up without getting cornered? Once I get in I can usually get a hefty percent combo and hopefully end with an edgegaurd or kill move, but getting that opening is proving to be tough.
 

D e l t a

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Hey Krozo, I struggle with this MU too. Basically you have to DD around his Dtilt and wait for him to come at you. The other possibility is to use that PKF damage at a safe range and try to find a grab or magnet to stop his CC game. Use platforms and superior mobility to navigate around Roy.

Under like 30-40% you can run up, crouch cancel, and beat his Dtilt with a magnet or Dtilt of your own. Run up shield is also good for disrupting their Dtilt game.

If you're getting hit by Fsmash a lot, chances are your DI is bad or youre approaching predictably. DI Roy's moves away and you won't be getting hit by Fsmash as much
 

KrozoMagnus

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Awesome! Thanks for the tips. I've been learning these things myself, but its good you put it in words. I definitely have been working on my poor DI :p

Also been struggling with Mario a bit. Mostly just the stupid fireball camping. But I'm guessing I just have to out-maneuver him or magnet the fireball.
 
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D e l t a

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I still reference Neon vs Sethlon @LTC3 for tips on approaching / baiting Roy in neutral. The winner's side match for how NOT to play the MU, and losers for how to body Roy lol

==

Mario is a bit more difficult. You have the right idea dealing with fireballs. PKF can hit the fireball but Mario will usually be able to throw another or approach us too fast. Retreating Zair or magneting the fireball are best if Mario isn't close range. Shielding them is also a good idea.

Just wait until you play a Mario that Dthrow chain grabs to like 30% then gets damage until you're at 80-90% where Uthrow fair kills lol. Aside from that, the MU isn't that hard, you just have to use Lucas' superior speed and mobility
 

KrozoMagnus

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I'll have to go watch those then. Where do I find those? Did you mean LTC2?

Yeah, I need to practice my moment and using moves OoS.
 
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MartinWolfe686

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D e l t a D e l t a Is the roy advice good vs all swordsmen (ie dd bait sword, use pkf at a distance, run up shield)? Also how do you deal with tech chasing considering Lucas' poor tech rolls?
 
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D e l t a

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Where do I find those? Did you mean LTC2?
Yeah my b. I YouTube searched "Neon vs Sethlon" and they came up
Winners: https://youtube.com/watch?v=PsG0Bd6n6Ug
Loser's Finals: https://youtube.com/watch?v=1xQhuo0ErtQ

D e l t a D e l t a Is the roy advice good vs all swordsmen (ie dd bait sword, use pkf at a distance, run up shield)? Also how do you deal with tech chasing considering Lucas' poor tech rolls?
It's similar to Marth, not Ike. Deal with our poor tech roll simply by mixing up tech in place / tech roll, and by not teching (only when it wouldn't be a worse situation than if you tech'd).

==

I wrote the following in the Lucas discord under the Marth channel.

In this MU you want to find a grab or Dair at low % so you don't get hit by CC Dtilt / Fsmash. From there, use sweetspots to avoid Marth's counter / Fair breaking out of combos.
Open up Marth by getting him in the air and juggling him. SideB is super punishable and has a lot of end lag in the air, but don't try to contest it on the ground.
Never fall down on top of Marth bc his Utilt, Uair, and Fsmash should always connect
Basically be spaced out to avoid Dtilt and Fsmash, but not too far away you can't punish whiffs

I'll let this speak for the combo game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNys6jwsAXw
 

D e l t a

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Against Ike, they're mainly going to dash dance & shield while looking for a grab, or they'll use spaced out Fair & Nair. Our PKF stuffs Ike's SideB (QD), but loses to the QD attack and Nair, so you have to hit Ike before he can do anything from his QD.

DI his Dthrow down & behind Ike

Always hold down & away if you feel you'll get grabbed to avoid the Fthrow followups.

Bthrow is reactable and also should be DI'd down and behind like Dthrow

Uthrow is somewhat reactable and should be DI'd to the closest platform at lower %'s. At higher %'s, DI away from the closest blast zone, since Ike gets a guaranteed followup with Bair, Uair, or Fair regardless.
 
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D e l t a

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There's a link in the main Lucas forums. Feel free to join any time. We usually reply faster there, but I feel that Smashboards is better for longer, detailed posts.
 

D e l t a

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zFrost zFrost could probably give you a good idea. She's played our local MI M2 a ton on netplay

Personally, I've been told to Nair the tele approaches, PKF at a safe distance, magnet the shadowballs, and try to juggle Mewtwo and not fight him on the ground bc of his disjointed tilts. Also, don't get overzealous with PKF since a quick tele approach or sideB from Mewtwo can counter this easily. Lastly, Mewtwo is slow and doesn't have quick approaches on the ground or from the ledge. Use this to your advantage
 

zFrost

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abuse tail moves, confusion can punish ice but don't be obvious with it, if they mag shadowball u can probly punish with a tele if u space it well enough to not just land in mag but idk the exact window. basically tho just utilize ur superior range to shut him down
 
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ForgottenLabRat

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Okay so I have been getting bopped by ganons recently at my weekly. It might have something to do with the guaranteed* literal zero to death chain grab from down throw. I was fighting Eikelmann a ton in friendlies who is considerably better than me but, and we were going roughly even till he figured out the chain grab. I then fought a ganon in bracket I had never seen before who simply chain grabbed me eight times to win the set. I have several questions for the better lucas mains/players than me:

What is this MU in your eyes? (Right now kinda feels 90-10 in ganons favor)
Should I learn another character to counter pick and if so: who?? (I also a bit of fox in tourney but am leaning more towards lucas recently)
Is this chain grab as guarenteed as I think it is? (Dthrow X amount of times to Upsmash)
Is there some trick to this MU that I don't know and if so what is it?

Things I already know about the chain grab:
You cannot DI off the stage as ganon can just pivot grab to bring you to the center.
If is guarenteed with whatever training DI is till 80ish % which you can get a guarenteed upsmash to kill Lucas
You can land on battlefield/PS2 platforms at about 56% but again they can just pivot grab to move away from them to where there aren't platforms
 
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assortedletters

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Despite the chaingrab, most lucas players think it's in our favor.

It's a matchup you have to play the neutral very safe, since it only takes 3 hits and an edgeguard for ganon to kill you. Keep in mind Lucas is much faster and mobile than Ganondorf, and our combos are great too.

pk freeze is only safe at max range, otherwise they can wizards foot right through it and hit you. Also they can cape it or CC it, so I don't think it's too great in the matchup.
For the chaingrab, all you can really do is mix up your DI and be sure to mash hard throughout it.
To avoid getting grabbed, be wary when hitting his shield. I'm personally a fan of magnet to wavedash back on shield to bait a shield grab. Down air is not safe on shield.
This hyperflame set should give you a good idea on how to play the neutral and how to punish. He adapts real well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF0vrsRE0Ik
 

ForgottenLabRat

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Thanks for the reply.

Honestly my neutral needs the most work. My punish game is pretty solid and my DI is decent as well but my neutral is really where I lack. Actually part of the reason I am asking this question is because of that set. No shots at Red Ranger but I think HyperFlame is easily one of the best PM players in the world. Not that Red Ranger isn't an amazing player but HyperFlame just seems on another level, and this set was really close.

I also do Mag wd back but if you mess up one time then it is over. I have been practicing my multimags, if that is the name, on a dummy and my friends who are still a little new and shield grab a lot and noticed I was getting shield grabbed considerably less.
 

D e l t a

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TBH, just dash dance a TON. IMO, magnet & PKF don't have the priority / hitbox disjoint to deal with Ganon's Fair / DownB and you most likely will end up getting hit by one of those trying to throw out moves in neutral. Basically play the MU like vsing Marth and stay out of their range until you find an opening. Don't throw out attacks, else you'll get whiff-punished or trade with their attack.

Ganon kills most characters in 4-7 hits, compared to others that take anywhere from 7-12 to kill. Counterpicking with a different character won't exactly solve your problem.

Look up top Melee Fox players and how they dash dance around Ganon's hitboxes / range.

Understand that his SideB / DownB have lots of startup and aren't the best closeup moves. His grab is tiny and recognizing this spacing is key to not getting ZTD CG'd. His fair has moderately high startup & a good amount of end lag- by the time Ganondorf lands with a Fair then goes to do another one, there's about 20-30 frames before the next Fair will be active.
 

zen-bz-

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Just got back into PM. Wewey Lucas is fun.

Who would typically have the edge in the ditto: an aggressive/offensive Lucas, or a passive/defensive Lucas?
 

D e l t a

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Those terms are so arbitrary and mean very little. The better player almost always wins. To be the better player means having a good balance of offense and defense.

If your offense is solid and you make little to no errors or openings for your opponent, then aggressive/offensive playstyle will win.
Example of aggressive Melee players: Mango, Hax, Westballz, Lucky
Aggressive Lucas mains: Neon, Hyperflame

If your defense is solid and you don't get hit, then passive/defensive playstyle will win.
Example of passive Melee players: Armada, Leffen, Shroomed
Passive Lucas mains: Kipcom, Frost, Pink Fresh

==

In terms of what type of playstyle best exemplifies Lucas, I believe the answer you're looking for is a passive aggressive style, similar to Hyperflame's Lucas.

I think Lucas doesn't have the best whiff punishes, which makes a more aggressive-centered playstyle the better choice, similar to how players should approach Falco dittos. Despite having a quick dash speed and relatively good frame data on his attacks, Lucas has short range on most attacks. The result is a need for tighter spacing, contrary to other characters like Marth, Ganon, DDD, GnW, etc. This doesn't necessarily imply that Lucas should always be attacking or on the offense, but rather staying in a threatening zone, just outside of where the other opponent can land an attack.

==

To relate back to your question, it's best to play aggressively right around the other Lucas' zone. Below is a low quality diagram to help emphasize my point:

upload_2016-8-23_12-30-11.png

Assuming both players are in neutral position....
  • Yellow is the range where Lucas' magnet, tilts and immediate aerials can hit. If the opponent is inside that area, these attacks have a high probability of hitting them. This is your immediate threat zone.
  • Outside red is approximately the area where dash attack / grab, running aerials, and PKF become humanly reactable and the Lucas player starts to over-extend outside of that range. This is your extended threat zone.
In the ditto, both players have the same threat zone. Knowing when to approach without over-extending is key to winning neutral. Safely gaining space through footsies (tight movement and well placed attacks at a close range) will lead you to winning these neutral interactions. Be aware of these threat zones at all times and do your best to play around them.

Being that Lucas' main projectile is PKF, understand the safe and unsafe ranges. Unlike other low end lag / autocancel projectiles (items, lasers, bacon, etc), Lucas' aerial PKF is unsafe at close ranges. It can be clanked and has 13 frames of landing lag + frames to land after using aerial PKF. Most Lucas players spam this move all the time, so playing smartly in the ditto where both players are aware of when and how to punish PKF is recommended.

This is why I say to play passive-aggressive in the ditto. PKF is the main opener for Lucas. Other than PKF, Lucas' safe approaches are predictable and short ranged.

[passive]
Wait for opportunities to punish the other Lucas for approaching or using PKF.
[aggressive]
Tight spacing and limiting the other Lucas player's space & PKF usage

upload_2016-8-23_12-42-5.png


If the other Lucas starts to use a PKF at this range and they do not fadeback or wavebounce the PKF, you can easily shield on reaction then punish OoS.
https://gfycat.com/HatefulLeftFinch

If PKF is thrown out anywhere past that range, it's easily reactable and punishable with a PKF of your own...
https://gfycat.com/SneakyVapidIriomotecat
 

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