Nair VS Sheik

[j3ly]

Mango (CF) vs M2K (Sheik) | STR:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BWxfTWjMcU




HI guys.

I'm noticing mango doesn't ever nair VS sheik. Last night in tournament I lost to a sheik player, and he got 50% of his punishes of CCing my nair into grab.

Just wanted to invite some discussion about nairing sheik below a certain percent, my cube isn't set up right now so I can't check the exact percent she cant CC it anymore, but I also had an issue with how low she ducks. I think she ducked under a grab or two aswell, perhaps a dash grab would counter that?

Also, uthrow knee whiffed 100% of the match - is it not a legit combo at all, or is jump timing very important? I landed grabs at all percents between 80 and 110, and not a single knee connected - it wasn't even close, sheik was able to jump out way before I got there.

 

[ramz zeus]

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-kill-people-when-you-hit-them-wip.428871/ dont really know about the nair but this is for your question about grabs

 

[Uchihadark7]

IMO playing with a Sheik mindset helps Falcon. I only use nair to combo in this matchup and I use f tilt and grab to approach.

 

[Rachman]

I've struggled mightily until recently with this MU as I only recently had to start fighting Sheiks on or near my level. I've been using more stomps, knees, and cactuar dashes than nair but still catch myself nairing too much as an autopilot type of thing in the neutral game. It can be fine as nair is a pretty dang good move but it's very low reward v a grounded Sheik and a decent amount of risk. IMO the other stuff seems a little better v Sheik but can't be sure quite yet as I still have so much to learn. And yea, proper DI makes uthrow knee not really a thing at all. Still, it'll work against most Sheiks if you immediately uthrow upon grabbing them and it's not super obvious you are going for it

 

[j3ly]

Played lots of games with a sheik (Br tarolg), and the conclusion we came to is nair is an OK move VS sheik if you want to be good in a dead region or the UK, but it should never be used on the big stage as a combo starter because a skilled sheik can counter it on reaction every time

 

[j3ly]

Weak knee -> gentleman / cross up knee / dair OOS / cross up dair were better options

DD -> dash grab (from an unreactable distance) was by far the best option against that player and maybe lots of other players

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

SHFFL nair isn't really reactable if you're approaching correctly..... maybe don't jump across the entire stage giving them plenty of time lol

I'd say just use it sparingly and use stomp as a response to CC.
DD grab will always be good, I've been liking instant uair recently too

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Pivot nair and fly through instant uair all day.
So fun.

 

[j3ly]

SHFFL nair isn't really reactable if you're approaching correctly.

I have to disagree with you there in a big way, but with about 10 caveats as is always the way with smash

it's certainly reactable to from all ranges, the move is 2 hits. sheik can grab between the 2 hits. She can miss the CC on the first hit and still be just fine CCing the second hit.

key caveat being you can setup the stomp mixup as you've said, which makes the counter 'just react to nair with x' not anywhere nearly as easy for her, and indeed I'll have to try this mixup more deliberately next time so thanks.

just to clarity this thread is about nair on hit, not on shield - just space it doesn't apply here. Knee works really good for that though.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

have to disagree with you there in a big way, but with about 10 caveats as is always the way with smash

First hit of nair hits frame 7, so it is NOT REACTABLE with CC.
If they're hit by the first hit of nair and are not CCing, they can't crouch, shield or anything like that before they're hit by the 2nd hit.
If they PREDICT you're going to nair, and they CC the first hit, then you're ****ed.
But it cannot be done on reaction! :D

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Of course they can ASDI down to get the CC on the first hit nair, but whether they can get the grab in between hits in neutral when they're looking out for other options such as SHFFL stomp, grab, etc.
I'm not so sure.

 

[j3ly]

mate they can react between the 2 hits

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

mate they can react between the 2 hits

With what?
Dash grab?
Crouch?
Shield?

Hit 2 of nair hits frame 17.
Standard reaction time is around 16 frames.
However, as we know from techchasing, differentiating between animations makes it around 18/19 frames.

Which is why I'm not so sure that they can react between the 2 hits. (which they can't even do unless they CC/ASDI down the first hit of nair)
They need to differentiate between nair/stomp/empty jump.

It would be really hard to test sadly, just nairing a Sheik and asking them to react isn't good enough imo, because they're not differentiating between Falcon's different approach options.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

I personally think Sheik can react between hits, but not with grab.
I think she could react with crouch (which doesn't give her a free grab if the 2nd hit is as low as possible and spaced) or shield.
Of course you want to avoid crouch, so be wary of percents, but a Sheik in shield is definitely a good position for you.

I also don't think they can react at all to 2nd hit of nair only since, as I said, it hits on frame 17 and they also need to look out for other things like stomp, empty jump, uair, etc.

 

[j3ly]

You're not getting it, the time between the nair is time she can react and crouch the second hit.
I'm not up for debating whether or not it's possible cos I've seen it, and do it myself - I wanted a counter, which you have most kindly provided. Thinking up strategies on the fly isn't my forte.. anyway nair isn't much good against sheik for the reasons above, watch the linked vid for top level proof

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

You're not getting it, the time between the nair is time she can react and crouch the second hit.
I'm not up for debating whether or not it's possible cos I've seen it, and do it myself - I wanted a counter, which you have most kindly provided. Thinking up strategies on the fly isn't my forte.. anyway nair isn't much good against sheik for the reasons above, watch the linked vid for top level proof

I think nair's an overrated approach anyway, and it's best used defensively.
But given how they need to look out for all of your options when jumping (if they just crouch and you stomp then they're ******) I don't think it's humanly consistent to crouch between hits, perhaps just ASDI down. I'm not sure, it's hard to test.

Anyway, you said you're not up for debate so that's fine anyway
But yeah Mango doesn't use nair very much against Sheik.

 

[M-Tude]

Ok, here's just one more opinion, because we seem a bit polarized here. I think J3ly is right, that Shieks CAN ASDI down the first hit of hair on reaction, because 4 frames of jump+7 frames+ ~4 frames of hitlag is more than enough time to react and hold down on a stick. It becomes second nature to hold down for sheiks, so they're very quick about it, and they might be holding it down even before they get hit. If she ASDI's the first hit down, she can grab you between hits if you mis-space the Nair, or F-tilt if you spaced it well. Additionally, she can CC the second hit into pretty much whatever for a very long time.

Especially if Shiek's begin to suspect that you'll use Nair, then they will bit it with impunity and punish it every time. This is super dangerous in the corner where they can C D-smash or F-tilt into Fair.

I'm also very unsure about this stomp mix-up idea. Yeah, it breaks CCing, but the ~20 frames of total start-up lag are VERY reactable, and can be easily shielded or F-tilted. I mean, I'm a big fan of the offensive flying cross-up stomp, either on shield or otherwise, but replacing Nair's use with Stomp? I'm not convinced it's good. It doesn't have the hitboxes for that and F-tilt way out ranges it. Tell me more about the situations when stomp would be good.

TL;DR

If you're in the corner and you try to attack, Shiek will see you enter the air. She holds down. if it's Nair, she CC punishes you. If it's stomp, she moves the control stick slightly forward and presses A, and F-tilts you out of stomp. Just DD and learn grab windows/instant Uair spacing.

 

[M-Tude]

Also, Furta, let me know if I'm wrong but U-throw knee will still work on in DI and no DI, right?

I like what @Uchihadark7 and Rachman seem to saying, which is play a more grounded Falcon with DD grabs. I also really like the idea of using more cactaur dashes. What sort of situations do you use them in? Also, are you using them so that you're just holding down more often so you get to CC more? I don't really CC that much against Shiek but I think I need to learn.

I like the idea of F-tilt too, buy I wonder if that's CC'able? Let me know how you use it @Uchihadark7

 

[Ocean Man]

I don't know if anyone said the exact percent, but sheik can crouch cancel the 2nd hit of nair until 87%. Knee is crouch cancellable until 35%, and stomp cannot be crouch cancelled at all I believe.

In my opinion nair is always a good option. It's very safe and can always outspace crouch cancelling. Also I'm not sure if it is true but I believe you can nair and then get your shield up before they can hit with a downsmash or another attack . If they go for the grab you can get a jab out. Or instead of going for nair you can go for knee or stomp. I like knee better though because it cant be crouch cancelled as late a percent percent as nair and it is also +1 on shield. It's all about the mixups. Stomp is good too though if it is crossed up.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Sheik cannot ftilt stomp on reaction wtf.
Sheik can't ASDI down nair on reaction.
They need to already be ASDIing for the first hit of nair to do anything between hits. (which is possible with cstick down)

4 frames of jumpsquat don't count, because you can do so much from it. WD, empty hop, stomp, knee, nair, etc, etc, etc.
2nd hit nair will hit frame 23 of your nair.
Reactable? 100% yes
Reactable with grab? Debatable
Reactable with crouch between hits? Na. If they're as late as frame 16 (which generally will be reaction time) then they have to wait for them to get up before being able to crouch, but nair hits you first. So they'll only ASDI down instead.

What about 2nd hit nair only?
Hits frame 17.
At first that sounds reactable, but keep in mind how they have to differentiate between what you're doing.
Like I said, your opponent can't just crouch when you jump, they'll get hit by stomp, spaced nair or knee and get ****ed.
So when they need to look out for all these options, frame 17 doesn't sound so good.
In techchasing, you need to look out for multiple options, which makes you react consistently by frame 18 or 19.

PS: Fuzzy said spaced nair is safe on CC, so that's good.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

"2nd hit nair will hit frame 23 of your nair."
If the first hit connected.

 

[Rachman]

Also, Furta, let me know if I'm wrong but U-throw knee will still work on in DI and no DI, right?

I like what @Uchihadark7 and Rachman seem to saying, which is play a more grounded Falcon with DD grabs. I also really like the idea of using more cactaur dashes. What sort of situations do you use them in? Also, are you using them so that you're just holding down more often so you get to CC more? I don't really CC that much against Shiek but I think I need to learn.

I like the idea of F-tilt too, buy I wonder if that's CC'able? Let me know how you use it @Uchihadark7

Yes knee works on neutral-> inwards DI at the proper %s

 

[reverie2]

You're not getting it, the time between the nair is time she can react and crouch the second hit.
I'm not up for debating whether or not it's possible cos I've seen it, and do it myself - I wanted a counter, which you have most kindly provided. Thinking up strategies on the fly isn't my forte.. anyway nair isn't much good against sheik for the reasons above, watch the linked vid for top level proof

How are sheiks normally following up after they get the CC against nair? Is it just grab? If so, a character liek fox would be able to do the same easily right?

 

[Bozy]

I only use nair to punish whiffed moves by shiek. Mostly if you can read when they ftiilt and then hit them with nair as soon as the move ends. I strongly recommend not flying forwards with aerials unless you can cross them up. If shiek is in the air you could catch her with nair but i would prefer upair.