My Thread for Random Peach Stuff

CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
386
#1
I thought it would be good to have a thread where I could post random little peach things. It's not going to be super formal.

Two Next Level Peach Options

So no one does either of these yet but I think they are both probably really good.

DJL -> Crouch

1-5: Jump squat
6: Double Jump (in air)
7: Wait (needed to register you're on ground)
8: Crouch

This allows you to quickly crouch out of shield. So you can just counter hit after crouch cancelling. Also you can crouch out of dash, or dash dancing. A lot of time players will go for an aerial while you're dash dancing because they know you can't quickly crouch cancel. This is faster than pivot crouch or any other method to my knowledge. Imagine just staggering in crouches in your dash dance. Imagine how scary that would be to approach. Also crouch contorts your body so if your opponent is trying to hit the top of your shield (like sheik's short hop fair) they will miss if you suddenly are crouching (spacing dependent). Also if falco is mixing up shooting his highest short hop laser to catch jump, you can run up, DJL -> crouch under it and then keep running forward. At worst you crouch cancel laser.

(DJL -> Powershield Down smash) OoS

What I mean is, you are shielding, then you double jump land, shield again to powershield, and then down smash. There's a few reasons I think this could be really good. A lot of times people are just looking for you to shield so they can rush in and attack your shield with some aerial. Like once they see the shield, they think it is safe to attack. Like in Peach dittos, when one person is floating over the other, when the person on the ground shields the person in the air thinks it is now safe to come down with an aerial. This is a really fast option to counter that. The start up is seven frames. Once you get the powershield, you usually get a free down smash, unless they have a a shield advantage and move start up advantage that can counter your five frame option out of shield (down smash). Obviously this is a little harder than powershield down smash so it's pretty hard but still. I think this could brutally confuse opponents and be a good defensive option.

Also people just don't use DJL -> down smash yet. There are times when it is just optimal. A lot of the time when your opponent does a clearly unsafe thing on your shield, they hold down because they are expecting a float cancel aerial out of shield. DJL -> down smash brutally punishes that. Really people just don't use DJL efficiently yet, only for landing on platforms. DJL -> Jab also is really good and is very useful against Falco. You'll see llod do it sometimes.

Yeah but there you go. I'm going to be trying to work double jump land into my game once I get a set up : /

Edit: Screwed up my terminology so edited lol

Edit: I got a set up so can actually test frame data and the posted frame data was off. Fixed.
 
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CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
386
#3
Double Jump Land Information

Here is some data on double jump landing.

Perfect DJL

1-5: Jumpsquat
6: Double Jump (in air)
7: Wait
8: Do whatever

DJL One frame Late

1-5: Jumpsquat
6: Missed double jump, nothing
7-9: Double Jump (in air)
10: Wait
11: Do whatever

DJL Two Frames Late

1-5: Jumpsquat
6-7: Missed double jump, nothing
8-12: Double Jump (in air)
13: Wait
14: Do whatever

Note: You can only be two frames late if you short hop. If you full hop, you'll be too far from the ground to make it back.

Another Note: None of this info is changed if you are holding in front or behind during the DJL.

So DJL goes from 7 frames, to 10 frames, to 13 frames depending on if you are frame perfect, one frame off, or two frames off respectively. The type of double jump you want is usually probably the frame perfect one but if you are knitting you might want the two not frame perfect ones. This is so you don't light shield after the knit/q drop. You can only press z for one frame if you double jump land frame perfectly. If you double jump land one frame off, you can hold down z for up to 3 frames if you double jump before dropping the turnip or up to 5 frames if you double jump after dropping the turnip. If you double jump land two frames off, you can hold down z for up to 5 frames if you double jump before dropping the turnip or up to 8 frames if you double jump after dropping the turnip.

Most of the time you will definitely want the frame perfect DJL though, to act as quickly as possible. It's important to be consistent with which DJL version you get as you want to act as soon as you possibly can. For instance if you time down smash for the frame perfect DJL and you're actually a frame late on your double jump, you'll get a dair which will make you stay in the air longer by contorting your hurtbox and also give you four frames of landing lag. That is a big punishment for timing your jump one frame late. I'm not sure yet what is the best strategy for avoiding this. It might be being frame perfect consistently. After all, most people consistently wavedash frame perfectly and it's the same thing, just pressing jump instead of L or R. The other option is to try to get the frame perfect DJL but wait for the timing of the one frame off DJL.

A final note, tap jump can normally be used to buffer a jump up to four frames ahead of time by holding up. For some reason though, this doesn't work while you are in jump squat. So you can't buffer jump here to ensure a frame perfect DJL. This is pretty disappointing : / I couldn't get it to work at least and I don't think I messed up anything obvious.


Cancelled Buffered Float

This is a minor detail I thought I should post about that I noticed when practicing chaingrabbing fox. Buffered float happens when you run off a ledge already holding x or y. A common use is holding x or y while up throwing fox or falco and they DI off the ledge so you can run off nair. Buffered float can be interrupted however if you input an aerial the frame before you leave the ground. You'll just do that aerial and no float will come out. So keep that in mind as it can suck to run off the stage and do a falling nair.

 
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CAUP

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Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
386
#4
There's been a lot of activity recently in the Peach community, much of it spurred by Quetzalcoatl Quetzalcoatl 's video on subfloat and his discovery of +4 subfloat nair (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oySLq4y-c8M&t=406s). Also druggedfox recently released a video on optimal Peach shield pressure, which got a lot of people talking about it for the first time in a while (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqBqJRqlb8Y). It seems as if a lot of Peach players all had the same idea: to go to the lab and try to find new things. I'm not saying I'm the first person to discover all this. My main purpose here is just to document everything.

Also all of this information is so interconnected that it's hard to organize everything, so bear with me.



The Three Float Heights

We're just going to ignore float heights from shield drop and platform drop for right now, alright? This is complicated enough at the moment.

Instant Float: This is just the regular float above the ground. To do this, you press and hold jump while holding down on the control stick. This float is at a height of 2.20010 melee meters (when standing you're at 0.00010 melee meters).

Subfloat: This is a float entered by using the dip from double jump. Really, there are other ways to get to this float height, like running off the stage while buffering jump. But the main way to get to it is by double jumping the first possible airborne frame (inputting jump on frame five of jump squat). This float is at a height of .00010 melee meters, the same height as standing.

Short Hop Float: Finally, we have a float which is between the heights of instant float and subfloat. Usually when you instant float, you hold down jump every frame of jump squat in order to buffer float. This naturally causes a full hop. But if you short hop, buffer float, you get a marginally lower float. What this means practically is that you have to jump, release jump, and press jump again before jump squat is over. Since you weren't pressing jump every frame of jump squat, you'll get a short hop. But you'll still be able to buffer the instant float as soon as you're in the air. This float has a height of 1.60010 melee meters.

Some relevant information is that SDI moves you 6 melee meters and ASDI moves you 3 melee meters ( T tauKhan ).



Alternate Methods to Enter these Float Heights

There are other ways to enter an instant float and a SH float.

If you input float the first frame you are airborne after a full hop (don't float immediately out of jump squat, wait a frame in the air), you will end up at the same height as if you had simply buffered float.

If you input float the first frame you are airborne after a short hop, you will end up at the same height as if you had SH floated.

This is actually a very important little tid bit of information. Because to go into true subfloat, you need to press jump frame perfectly, so that you double jump on the first airborne frame. But if you are a frame late, you'll still enter into SH float.

You might think since there is a SH float, there is a full hop subfloat. But a full hop subfloat seems to be no different than a regular subfloat. They are the same heights.


Small Differences Between SH Float and Instant Float

If you "perfectly" fast fall a SH float nair, the nair won't come out.

If you SH float and release float the same frame you up air, up air won't come out. This is opposed to normal float.

I'm sure there are a ton of other small differences I haven't gotten around to noticing or documenting.



Short Hop Float Nair

It's really good.

If you don't release float until nair connects with shield, it's +2.
If you release float before nair connects with shield, it's +3.
You can also get a +4 nair if you wait at least 7 frames in the air before nairing and fast fall before the nair connects with shield.

Maybe your eye is drawn to the +4 nair. But it shouldn't be. The really crazy thing here is the +3 nair. All you need to do to make it +3 is release float before the nair connects with shield. That's a 3 frame window to simply release a button. This is the same timing that allows a +2 nair normally, just at a different height which makes it +3. This timing is not remotely hard. I can get 30 or 40 +2 nairs in a row, which is the same timing. The only "hard" part about this is entering SH float.

In other words this option is just strictly better than regular nairs and has a bigger frame leniency.

EDIT: Okay actually, it is not the same window as regular +2 because if you drop float the frame before nair connects, you'll get +2, not +3. So the window is one frame smaller, which is definitely relevant. The thing is though, there's no risk in trying to get this float height. At "worst" you subfloat. And at worst you get the shield advantage you'd get off of normal nair. So it's still really good. Having one fewer frames to get +3 does make a difference though.



ECBs and Low Floats

I mentioned earlier that you had to wait until your seventh airborne frame before you could input nair while in SH float in order to get a +4 nair. This also applies to subfloats.

In order to get a +4 nair, you must be very close to the ground before nair connects with shield, but importantly- you must not have landed before nair came out. Subfloat and SH float are actually sometimes too low to the ground.

Specifically, Peach's ECB does not change for her first nine airborne frames. This is because the ECB is updated on the tenth airborne frame ( schmooblidon schmooblidon https://youtu.be/TtiDd5cQWJc?t=8m22s). In these first nine air born frames, you're too low to the ground to get a +4 aerial. Nair also contorts Peach's ECB downwards on the second and third frames, so you have to wait until the 8th airborne frame before you can input nair. This means the fastest +4 subfloat nair comes out frame 16. It's worth noting until then the best nair you can get is +2. Also, since frame 16 isn't especially fast, +4 subfloat nair has to compete with regular FC up air (coming out frame 14). That will probably be the next topic I discuss here.



Sources

Tyler Dill on the Peach R&D facebook group figured out you could reach the SH float height by floating after being airborne a frame. He also made a post discussing some of the data in this thread at the same time I was looking into it. His post had the idea of using the exact heights of the different floats (the heights I have reincluded here). Shout outs to him.

Dustin Rahier, also on the facebook Peach R&D, made a post discussing Peach shield pressure on platforms. He mentioned that his problem was caused by the ECB not updating. This clarified why you have to wait several frames before being able to start a +4 nair. Before I had thought it had to do with Peach's legs pulling up in the beginning of her float animation. Shout outs to him as well.

Roc0c0 on reddit figured out the +4 nair from SH float.

Like I said earlier, several Peach players were figuring out stuff at the same time. But these were the players I learned new information from. None of this is who discovered stuff first. I don't really know if that's known. This is who I got information from. If I don't cite someone in some information I give, I'm not saying I'm the first to publish this information, just that I found it myself. Hopefully that makes sense. I'm really trying not to plagiarize anyone here or take credit for anything I didn't do.
 
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CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
386
#5
Dair to Linked Nair Shield Pressure

Intro

For those of you who don't know, if you start an aerial during the IASA frames of an aerial that was started in float, the aerial you started will float cancel even if you did not start that aerial during a float. This is called a Linked Float Cancel. This was discovered by Quetzalcoatl Quetzalcoatl . The full thread can be found here:

https://smashboards.com/threads/dis...o-a-non-float-aerial-iasafc-linked-fc.424491/

Nearly from day one, it was known that probably the best application of this technique was using the IASA frames from dair to do a linked float cancel nair. So this has been known about for a long time. BUT. I had no idea how good this option actually is until I looked at the frame data. And I think it's worth a write up.



Frame Data

A high dair is -2 on shield unstaled. This is if you act out of the IASA frames as soon as possible. As peach players, we're used to hearing about +4 aerials, so -2 might sound really bad. But keep in mind with a high dair, you become actionable in the air, not on the ground. So this means we get to nair. So if Peach nairs perfectly after a dair, the opponent only has four actionable frames before nair connects.

This is really good because a linked nair can be very positive on shield. +4 linked nair was the first +4 nair found way back in the day (by yours truly) but realistically you're going for a +3 or +2 nair. There's a lot of variables when doing a dair to linked nair, so it's not easy to quantify the frame window of a +3 or +2 nair- but the frame window is generous. It's not hard to set up a significantly positive nair with a little practice.

If dair is maximally staled, it's only one frame worse. It will be -3 instead of -2. This is because dair is already such a weak move. I'm not sure how many times you need to use dair before it's stale. That's something I need to look into.



FC Dair -> Turnip Drop -> Linked Nair

This is a very solid option if you have the technical proficiency to execute it.

If you time the turnip drop perfectly, the opponent is actionable for two frames before they return to shield stun. If the turnip connects with shield and you do the nair frame perfectly, the opponent cannot act between the turnip connecting and the nair connecting.

This is a difficult sequence to perform, however, as you have only a few frames to work with to drop the turnip and quickly input the nair. The first frame of dair you can act is frame 35 and the last frame you can link the float cancel is frame 38. You cannot drop a turnip one frame and nair the frame after since the Z button counts as pressing L or R and the A button; this means if you nair the frame after pressing Z, the game will think you are just holding down the A press from the previous frame. So you have to press Z, instantly release Z, and then press A (or Z). This is not at all easy in a four frame window. And to get the turnip drop to nair to shield lock, you have to be frame perfect (this isn't the most important thing in the world though as at worst, if you execute the turnip drop -> linked nair, the opponent will have two frames to act before the nair connects).

Also Peach releases the turnip somewhat high above her, so you have to be low in their shield for the turnip to immediately connect. This means you have very little room before you hit the ground to get out a nair.

Overall, I'm not sure if this option can be done consistently. Which means it's probably better to not have a turnip in hand while dairing your opponent's shield. If you dair your opponent's shield while holding a turnip, one option is to drop the turnip during the IASA frame of dair and then start another dair.



Juicy Details

Dair to linked nair eats a good amount of shield. This is because of both the shield damage and the shield decay, since dair lasts a good while. This means against characters with bad shields, you might be able to get a shield poke.

Also keep in mind that since dair lasts a good while, it often gives you enough time to cross up their shield. This can lead to a down smash behind their shield that they can't punish.

If you start your float facing away from the opponent and then cross up their shield with dair to linked nair, you can attempt a grab using the +2 or +3 nair. Since most characters have worse out of shield options behind them, this is a solid option.

Thanks to Quetz for talking with me about these options.



Counterplay

You may have noticed the discussion so far has assumed that the opponent doesn't release shield to get hit by dair. For some characters releasing shield and holding down is the best option. Fox and Falco can release shield, hold down, and shine. This completely beats dair pressure and will hit Peach unless she is doing an exceptionally high dair. Most characters aren't as privileged as the spacies though. Jabs are usually a character's fastest grounded option but to act quickly out of getting hit by dair, you want to be holding down. This makes it difficult to get out a jab. Also at some percents the last hit of dair can combo into nair.

For most characters their best, and really only option, is to roll. For how limited this option is, it really beats dair fairly cleanly. With a roll away from you, characters with long rolls can make a hard read necessary to continue the pressure or can just get out completely. It's somewhat hard to even punish roll in toward you. Sometimes you will only be able to punish roll in by placing them in a disadvantageous mixup situation where you have the slight frame advantage.

Even if the opponent just rolls every time, that's still a victory. If you're able to successfully punish roll toward you a decent amount of the time, they'll be forced to roll away from you. Often roll toward Peach is just going to be a very unnecessary risk. Depending on your stage positioning, you'll be able to use this to your advantage. If you have center stage, you can force them to roll to the corner. If you have the corner, you can drift toward center for free. Either they roll to the corner or they roll into your path. You probably won't get a punish on the roll toward center, but they won't be able to punish you either.

In general against most characters, even if the opponent uses the appropriate counter play, dair on shield is still a win for Peach.



Practice

With 20XX it's pretty easy to practice this shield pressure.

I recommend turning on flashes for missed and successful L cancels. You don't want to be L cancelling or missing your L cancel. You want the nair to float cancel. If you get a flash of any kind you're not getting the linked float cancel. Also beware the nair not coming out and autocancelling.

Turn on frame counter and have the game count float cancel dair and float cancel nair. You want to nair so that the counter for dair reads as close to 35 as possible. The closer to 35, the faster the nair comes out after the dair. The dair counter can read up to 38 before the nair will no longer be a linked float cancel nair.

You want the frame counter for nair to read as close to 3 as possible. Calculate your frame positivity using the classic formula: 7 - Frame Read Out = Frame Advantage ( Sycorax Sycorax ). To get the most positive nairs, you want to nair as low to the ground as possible. Also don't forget to fast fall at some point. There's only a few frames in the whole process where you can press down and miss the fast fall- the very first frames nair connects with shield. I don't think it really matters when you fast fall. I personally do it after the nair connects.

Float cancel dair is interesting as there isn't some clearly optimal height to start the dair. But there is an optimal height to do the nair after the dair- as low to the ground as possible. This means no matter what height you're at when you start the dair, you'll want to be barely above the ground as soon as the dair ends.

Here are some "set ups" for getting a low linked nair on shield. Keep in mind there's no sure fire way to perfectly set this up every time. You really just need to go off of intuition and practice.

-If Peach's shoes are hitting the very top of the opponent's shield, release float almost immediately. Fast fall after the nair.
-If Peach's dress is almost hitting the top of their shield, release float during the second hit of dair. Fast fall after the nair.
-If Peach is inside their shield and her legs are hitting, release float during the third hit of dair. Fast fall after the nair.

You might want to find your own timings in which you fast fall before the nair.
 
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CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
386
#6
+4 Aerial to Triple Grab Against Falcon

Introduction

Not all spot dodges are created equal. There are roughly four tiers of spot dodges: 22 frame, 27 frame, 32 frame, and trash. The data can be found here:

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Sidestep

Most of the characters with spot dodges in the 32 to trash range are low tiers or mid tiers with one notable exception: Captain Falcon. Falcon notoriously has a bad spot dodge. And Peach can exploit this harder than any other character.

If Peach lands a +4 aerial on Falcon's shield, she has a very advantageous mix up situation. It is so advantageous that when I first wrote this thread I thought Peach was guaranteed a grab off of Falcon with proper pressure- but he can make the situation not guaranteed because of a very small detail which I at first overlooked. Instead of setting up a 100% confirm, the +4 aerial establishes a very strong 50-50.

Some of you might have balked at the reference to confirming off of a +4 aerial. I am going to write a post on +4 up air relatively soon; I have been putting it off. But I came across this case and thought it was too funny not to share immediately. In defense of this post, I have reason to think it is possible to do consistent +4 up airs, or at least semi consistent. So what I'm about to discuss isn't TAS or wildly impractical. I definitely think it is humanly possible, though substantially difficult. When I say +4 aerial in this post, I am referencing up air. I'll elaborate in future posts on why this is the case.



If Falcon Spot Dodges

Normally, +4 aerials are so strong because the only option which beats +4 aerial to grab is spot dodge. But in the unfortunate case of Captain Falcon, his spot dodge isn't good enough.

If Peach grabs frame perfectly after the +4 aerial, she will be 4 frames into her grab animation before Falcon can enter spot dodge. Peach's grab is 30 frames and Falcon's spot dodge is 32 frames so Peach has a 6 frame advantage over Falcon after he spot dodges the first grab.

During this 6 frame advantage, Peach can land a guaranteed down smash. She can also jab or f-tilt.

But Peach has a very strong chain grab on Falcon so grab is preferable, at least at low percents. Grab comes out frame 7, meaning if Peach acts frame perfectly, Falcon only has 1 frame where he is actionable after spot dodge before he is grabbed.

If Peach is close to Falcon when she grabs, there is nothing Falcon can do to avoid being grabbed.

However, if Peach is at a more ambiguous spacing where grab will barely connect, there is counterplay for Falcon. He can spot dodge a second time to beat the second grab. This is interesting because Falcon's spot dodge isn't invulnerable frame 1. Instead, he contorts his body into the z axis just enough where he can avoid the grab.

What is Peach's counterplay to Falcon's second spot dodge of her second grab? Peach grabs a third time. This time, since Peach started the grab 2 frames earlier, she has more of a frame advantage on Falcon and can grab the ending of the spot dodge animation. So once he spot dodges the first grab, there is nothing Falcon can do against +4 aerial to triple grab. With some small caveats.



Counterplay After Spot Dodging

There are rare exceptions where the spacing is so tight that Peach is at the max distance in which her grab will still connect. In these situations, Falcon can get out using moves which contort his body backwards if he acts frame perfectly. These moves are: jumping, up-tilt, grab, side b, down b, forward smash, and up smash. I would recommend side b because it moves Falcon back the most distance at the quickest rate. So if Falcon decides to spot dodge, after the spot dodge he should probably attempt to side b.

Another valid counter strategy is hoping your opponent mistimes the second grab. In this case it is probably best to buffer roll.

Besides this minor caveat which is essentially a messed up spacing by Peach, Falcon's spot dodge loses cleanly to +4 aerial to grab. Peach just may have to grab three times.



Falcon's Forward Roll and the Z Axis

This is a detail I overlooked on my first examination of the topic. It was pointed out to me by Dublat, the Georgia Marth/Pichu main.

On the second and third frames of Falcon's forward roll, his body contorts into the z axis. This is especially pronounced on the third frame. Peach's grab cannot grab Falcon on this frame. This means that buffered forward roll beats +4 aerial to grab. This is opposed to other characters where +4 aerial to grab beats roll but loses to spot dodge.

If it wasn't for this very small detail, at correct spacings Peach would be guaranteed a grab on Falcon after landing a +4 aerial. And I'm sure other character with 32 frame spot dodges or worse aren't so lucky as to have this minor quirk, meaning Peach can guarantee a grab on them. But instead, against Falcon, we have a 50-50 situation. The only thing that escapes the triple grab pressure is forward roll. To forward roll, or not to forward roll- that is the question.

As Peach the mix up is essentially: grab or cover forward roll.

If Peach goes for the grab, the only two options Falcon can do to not immediately be grabbed are spot dodge and forward roll. If he spot dodges, that has been discussed in depth above- Peach ultimately gets the grab. If Peach guesses incorrectly and grabs when Falcon forward rolls, she will have a 6 frame advantage which is usually not enough to continue the pressure. However, if Falcon has to roll toward her into the corner, then she can down smash. In that niche situation, Peach is still guaranteed a follow up after the +4 aerial. Otherwise, Falcon escapes.

If Peach decides to cover the forward roll, the coverage will depend on what direction Falcon is facing.

If Falcon is facing Peach, Peach can simply dash back and react. If Falcon forward rolls or spot dodges, the two options which avoid the immediate grab, then Peach gets the grab.

If Falcon is facing away from Peach, Peach can still cover his forward roll by dashing through him. But if Falcon reads this he can just grab. So in this situation I think the mix up is to grab or down smash. Grab beats everything but forward roll. And down smash beats forward roll and doesn't "lose" to any option. At worse, Falcon holds shield. Usually Peach's down smash is vulnerable to Falcon's spot dodge because his spot dodge goes into the z axis on the first frame and can avoid down smash. But if Falcon is facing away from you, the down smash will still hit- he only contorts into the z axis on one side of his body.

What this means for Falcon is that if he truly thinks Peach has the triple grab on lock, he should never spot dodge since that loses to both mix ups. He should either forward roll or do some other option on a hard call out that Peach will cover forward roll. This hard call out could simply be retreating or attempting to nair Peach.

Overall this mix up situation is still wildly in Peach's favor. And if the opponent doesn't know it's a mix up between forward rolling and not forward rolling, which is not at all obvious, then they're screwed. It's way more favorable than a 50-50 if they don't understand the situation. Even if they do, forward roll is very vulnerable to counter play. Falcon is lucky- most other characters with poor spot dodges cannot avoid the grab at all.



Practicality and Frame Window of Triple Grab

The frame window for the triple grab is tight, even excluding the timing for the +4 aerial to grab which requires a frame perfect grab. If the Falcon is using the correct counter play using moves which contort him backward, there is a two frame window to input the second grab at normal spacings. It may be a one frame window if the grab is barely in range. The third grab has a much easier window. This is assuming the Falcon is using the correct counterplay. If he isn't and is just spot dodging, the window is larger. But the window for the third grab will be smaller if your timing is late on the second grab.

Luckily the timing for the triple grab isn't impossibly difficult as grab is a flat 30 frames and so corresponds to a rhythm of 120 BPM. Also the timing is off of your own input, not your opponent's input. However, this difficult frame window should be mitigated by spacing closer to Falcon. Overall, I do think this technique should be possible by a human, though it would of course take practice. Luckily the grabs aren't input intensive, just timing intensive. And I think a lot of us have inadvertently practiced the timing for spamming grab.

If you don't believe in the human practicality of this technique, then at least you can go for down smash after the grab. If Falcon spot dodged the grab, this is guaranteed and is less challenging. It is important to be able to cover Falcon's spot dodge in order to make the situation a true 50-50.



Practicing Triple Grab

Let frame counter count the wait animation. With the version of 20XX I am using, the number it shows will not change if you never enter wait and will change to zero if you are in wait one frame. You want to grab without wasting any time between grabs. You want the number to never change, or if it does, to stay at zero. If it shows one, that isn't great but will often suffice. Light shielding should also be avoided. It usually indicates you grabbed at least a frame too soon.

I recommend doing reps of three grabs. If the number never changes, that was a perfect rep. I am using z to grab. You can also make frame counter count entering shield if you are worried you're wasting frames shielding.



Conclusion

Personally I think this is a really funny, interesting, and annoyingly complicated Melee situation. I also think it's an incredibly good situation for Peach. Of course all this is reliant on the ability to land and execute off of a +4 aerial, so that should be my next write up.

I'm really bummed the +4 aerial doesn't lead to a guaranteed grab against Falcon, but at least it works on other characters with bad spot dodges. And at least against Falcon the mix up situation is still incredibly favorable for Peach.

I haven't tested it much, but I'm guessing Peach has absurd pressure on the characters with spot dodges in the trash tier. The exception is probably Bowser because of his up b. I'm assuming her pressure against other characters with 32 frame spot dodges is similar to the pressure described here. Against the characters with 27 frame spot dodges, if Peach grabs frame perfectly after a +4 aerial, she has a +1 advantage after the spot dodge. Against characters with 22 frame spot dodges, she is -4 after the whiffed grab. Depending on the character, this might not even be a strong disadvantage.
 
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CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
386
#7
+4 Up Air Shield Pressure

Introduction

I argue that +4 up airs are practical and that possibly up air should replace nair as the dominant aerial used in shield pressure.

In the last entry I discussed a specific situation in which Peach is at a very large advantage if she lands a +4 aerial on shield. The rewards for landing a +4 aerial are large.

One way of looking at it is that there are two big check points in terms of frame advantage in Peach's shield pressure: +2 and +4. At +2, down smash beats buffered roll. So the opponent can either hold shield and take the down smash or they can spot dodge. The second big check point is +4 because at this point, down smash beats buffered roll and buffered spot dodge. The opponent can only hold shield. Importantly, grab beats buffered roll at this level of frame advantage. The only thing that beats grab is spot dodge (as shown in my last post, there are rare exceptions to this statement. Sometimes spot dodge doesn't beat grab while roll does). This leads to a highly advantageous mix up situation. Peach can down smash or grab or she can grab or wait. Both are very powerful mix ups.

In other words there is a clear incentive to get +4 aerials. +3 aerials are nice, but really they're +2 aerials with one more frame of leniency. They offer nothing +2 aerials don't offer. +4 aerials are truly unique and offer Peach an incredibly powerful mix up situation on shield.

So which aerial should we use for +4 pressure? Dair can't be +4. Fair can be +4, but it is slow and can't usually be +4 at the normal height fair is used. Bair can be +4 but has problems. Grab is an essential part of what makes the +4 mix ups so powerful. But the only way you can face your opponent and hit their shield with a +4 back air is if you are very deep inside their shield. So almost always you have to turn around to grab. At best, if you get the smash turn, suddenly back air is effectively +3. You've lost the powerful +4 mix up. This isn't preferable.

The two aerials left are nair and up air. Nair can only be +4 from a linked float or from subfloat. From linked float I believe +4 nair is usually spacing perfect and frame perfect ( you need to input nair on frame 35 of dair). +4 subfloat nair is also problematic. Because of ECB shenanigans it comes out at earliest frame 16 and it is a 2 frame window to execute. And entering subfloat is already a 1 frame input.

All that's left is up air. It's our only hope. Are +4 up airs feasible? Luckily, I think so.



You've probably been doing up airs wrong

I just realized this recently and it blew my mind. In normal, correct Peach shield pressure, you want to input an aerial, release float, and fast fall before the aerial comes out. This way you'll be as low to the ground as possible when your aerial connects with shield, allowing the highest possible shield advantage. For instance when going for a +3 nair, you nair, release float, and fast fall all before the hitbox of nair comes out.

Up air doesn't work like this. You don't want to fast fall before the up air comes out. Instead you want to fast fall after up air connects with shield. Up air takes long enough that if you try to fast fall before the hitbox comes out, you'll land and no hitbox will come out at all. If you fast fall before the up air hitbox comes out, there's a very small window to get a +4 aerial, usually 1 frame. If you fast fall after the up air connects with shield, the window to get a +4 aerial is significantly larger.

You want to fast fall after up air has hit shield. This fast fall is usually a 4 frame window. It's a familiar timing, basically the same timing as going for a +2 nair. So besides this standard fast fall, what goes into a +4 up air?



Executing +4 Up Air

You want to be as low to the ground as possible before up air comes out but you don't want to fast fall. What this means practically is that you want to release float as soon as possible before the up air comes out. The sooner you release float, the greater frame advantage you will have on shield. To get a +4 up air, there is a 3 frame window to release float. So a +4 up air has two windows- a 3 frame window and a 4 frame window. It's definitely humanly possible to do with reasonable consistency.

Here's a break down of the frame data:

Release Float----------Fast Fall---------Miss Fast Fall
Frame 0............................+4 .........................+2
Frame 1............................+4..........................+2
Frame 2............................+4.............................0
Frame 3............................+3...........................-4
Frame 4............................+3...........................-4
Frame 5............................+3...........................-4
Frame 6............................+3...........................-5
Frame 7............................+2...........................-7
Frame 8............................+2...........................-7
Frame 9 ...........................+2...........................-7
Frame 10..........................+2...........................-7
Frame 11..........................+2...........................-7
Frame 12..........................+2...........................-7
Frame 13..........................+2...........................-7
Frame 14..........................+1...........................-8
Frame 15...........................-1...........................-8
Frame 16...........................-3...........................-9


This data is with unstaled up air. Sorry for how ugly this chart is : p Smashboards sucks at charts.

By fast fall, I am referring to hitting the fast fall on shield, not fast falling before the up air comes out. The "frame x" under the "release float" column corresponds to what frame of up air you release float on. Frame 0 is releasing float the frame before the up air animation begins.

It's important to understand exactly what I mean by release float. In Melee, your inputs on the current frame will be used on the frame after. By release float I mean no longer pressing the jump button. So when I say release float on frame 0, that means the frame before up air comes out, you are not holding the jump button. So you will exit float on the first frame of up air, frame 1. This chart refers to the exact time you input releasing float, not the time one frame later when float is released in game.

You're aiming for the three +4 values. To get these values, you want to release float as soon as you up air and then hit the fast fall on shield. This is a 3 frame window followed by a 4 frame window. Keep in mind, if you miss the 3 frame window, there is another 3 frame compensation window where you get at least +3. While a significant step down from +4, +3 is at least as good as optimal instant float nair pressure. Even after that there's a huge window to get +2. Basically if you hit the fast fall, you've got at least a very solid mix up situation for yourself. Going for the +4 up air never hurts.

Don't be afraid of the "miss fast fall" column. This is similar for all of Peach's aerials- you're almost always very negative if you miss the fast fall. If you really butcher everything, at worst you'll get -7. That's the absolute worst scenario- you flubbed everything. Realistically, at worst you'll get -4. The big moral though is that at bare minimum, if you just hit the fast fall, you're good.

A 3 frame window is definitely enough to make it consistently possible to land +4 aerials, especially when you're just releasing a button. But there is an important complication which it is essential to be aware of.



Tap Float and the Advantages of Claw

If you enter float, hold up on the control stick, and release the jump button, you'll still be in float. This has important implications for +4 up airs.

If you input up air by pressing up and A on the control stick, it's not enough to just release the jump button. If you're still holding up from your up air input, you will remain in float. Practically, what this means is that you've got to very briefly flick the control stick upward. This is the same frame window as short hopping with fox using tap jump. It's not super easy. This is the hardest part about +4 up airs.

This of course assumes you are using up and A to input up air. If you use c-stick, this entire problem is avoided. This is a big deal. Basically this technique is way easier to do with claw. It's definitely possible without claw but the hardest part of the technique is removed if you use claw.



Other Advantages of Up Air Instead of Nair

These are advantages besides the increase in shield advantage and the strong mix ups which result from this increase in advantage.

Peach shield pressure is very vulnerable to staling. Up air is in general a move not used as often as nair, so it is less likely to be staled.

Armada once objected to the use of optimal nair pressure because he said that if the nair misses shield, it will only be out one or two frames. In other words, leaving your nair out longer hedges your bets. If you agree with Armada's train of thought here, you'll enjoy up air. If up air whiffs and you meant for it to connect on shield, the meatiest portion of its hitbox will be out 3 to 5 frames. Really this isn't necessarily good or bad- it's just a characteristic of the attack.

If your opponent releases shield and gets hit, against most character up air is more likely to lead into a combo than nair.



Practice

If you're not using claw, first I recommend just short hopping as fox using tap jump. The very brief amount of time you press up is the same amount of time you'll need to do the up air input. If you don't use claw, this input is definitely the hardest part of the technique by far. The actual timing isn't that hard, you just need to get used to it.

I recommend using 20XX frame counter in order to practice. The formula is: Frame Advantage = 11 - Frame Read out. You want 7. Reference the table here to see how close you are to +4.

Another way to practice this is to break it down and just practice the timing for releasing float. Don't try to fast fall, just try to release float at the right timing. This is where the column about missing fast fall comes in handy. Using this data you can know when you released float. If you get 9, you released float in a good window. If you get 11, that's also okay but one more frame and you would miss the timing. If you get 15, you were at least a frame late. You got a +3 aerial instead of a +4 aerial.

If you're struggling, I recommend using the input display and the replay feature. You can see what you did wrong.

If all this isn't working, just use claw. It's way easier. I don't use claw, so this technique is kind of hard for me. But using claw, even without much experience, the technique is much easier.

When I first practiced this, I was confused I wasn't getting +4 more often. The frame window is ample. At first I was literally never getting +4. This is because the timing for this technique is just different from Peach's other aerials. You need to get used to the new timing. After that the biggest obstacle was pressing up on the control stick as briefly as possible. I definitely think it is possible to be consistent with this technique without using claw, but claw definitely helps.

Also be sure to practice acting perfectly after the aerial. You want to be able to grab buffered rolls and down smash buffered spot dodges. Set the CPU to do one of those options.

This is extreme and sort of out there but if for some reason you really don't feel like you can do +4 up air using a normal grip and you're also super lazy and don't want to just switch to claw, you could try holding very slightly up as you plug in your controller. The neutral zone of your controller will be shifted upwards so you won't have to return as far to neutral in order to avoid float.



Conclusion

Honestly, after really researching this and practicing it, I think +4 up air is something that should be incorporated into Peach's game plan. I absolutely think if someone put in the work, they could consistently get +4 up airs on shield. I don't even think it's that niche a technique. Nair is currently the default aerial Peachs use for shield pressure but basically the only advantage nair has over up air is that it is 4 frames faster. If you're in a really tight spot and you need to instantly have a hit box out, nair is definitely better. But if you're moving toward an opponent's shield about to do an aerial, up air is probably preferable. Realistically the four extra frames usually won't matter. If your opponent feels like an attack on shield is coming eminently and they can't avoid it, they'll hold shield. And their shield will get up aired. If that four frames is somehow actually making a difference and they are escaping in that little time, then nair becomes a very powerful option. At the end of the day, the reward for landing a good up air, specifically a good +4 up air, is much more than the reward for landing a good nair.

I know this sort of write up is somewhat out there as it seems like such a minor optimization which requires a substantial amount of work. It's such a minor detail- you're plus on shield for one, two more frames. But the advantages from this one to two extra frames are significant. Suddenly you have a deeply powerful mix up situation you didn't have before.

I encourage people to think about this and put work into it before they dismiss it as impractical. I really do think it's humanly consistent. It just requires work.
 
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CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
386
#8
Here's the data about the different spot dodges: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Sidestep




Beating Spot Dodge with the Last Hit of Down Smash

At a +4 advantage on shield, down smash beats spot dodge before the spot dodge intangibility can come out. But even at significantly lower advantages on shield, down smash still beats spot dodge since the down smash lasts longer than the intangibility of spot dodge. The last hit of down smash will connect.

The last hit of down smash is on frame 22. Spot dodge intangibility just doesn't last that long for most spot dodges. At basically any advantage of shield, down smash beats spot dodge.

This isn't true for every type of spot dodge, however. If you have a spot dodge that is 32 frames or longer and your name isn't Mr. Game & Watch, then your spot dodge intangibility can out last down smash. In fact, against these spot dodges, down smash will only beat spot dodge if you are less positive on shield than usual. This is because if you have less shield advantage, you start the down smash later which means the last hit of down smash will come out at a later time- which means you can out last the intangibility from spot dodge. In general to beat 32 frame spot dodges with down smash, you can be at most +1 on shield. Against Mewtwo, you can be at most even on shield. Against Donkey Kong, you can be at most -2 on shield. Against Bowser, you can be at most -3. Keep in mind if you get a higher shield advantage than these numbers, you can just wait to waste frames of your advantage until you reach the desired lower advantage. However, there's absolutely no reason to actually do this. Against slow spot dodges, grab is the vastly superior option as talked about in previous posts.

Z-axis shenanigans can also help characters dodge down smash. Captain Falcon's spot dodge contorts him into the z-axis significantly; you have to be at most -3 on shield in order for down smash to beat his spot dodge. Whether down smash beats spot dodge can also be spacing dependent. But in general that shouldn't matter. Down smash will beat spot dodge unless you are playing against a character with a 32 frame spot dodge or longer (and in that case you should grab).




If the Opponent Spot Dodges Your Grab

Spot Dodge Type----+2 Advantage---+4 Advantage
Frame 22.........................-6..............................-4
Frame 27.........................-1……………………..+1
Frame 32........................+4.............................+6
Trash…….........................+9 or more............+11 or more

This chart shows your frame advantage/disadvantage if you do a FC aerial on shield, grab, and the opponent spot dodges the grab. This assumes the opponent did the spot dodge as early as possible with no extra frames of holding shield. The "+2 Advantage" and "+4 Advantage" refer to the frame advantage of your aerial on shield before the grab.

As an example, if you hit Fox's shield with a +2 aerial, go for a grab, and he spot dodges, he will become actionable 6 frames before you do since he has a 22 frame spot dodge.

Against spot dodges longer than 22 frames, you're probably not in an awful position if they spot dodge your grab. But against 22 frame spot dodges, you are definitely at a strong disadvantage.

If you had a +4 advantage before the grab, you probably aren't in an awful situation. The big option to beware is grab (this is of course character dependent- some characters will have better or worse options). If you buffer roll and the opponent grabs frame perfectly, you will get grabbed. If you spot dodge by holding L or R and c-stick down, you'll dodge their grab and be at a 2 frame disadvantage (-2). If you spot dodge by inputting L or R and control-stick down within a four frame window of actionability, you'll be at a 1 frame disadvantage (-1). If the opponent waits and you spot dodge or roll, they likely will be able to punish you. If they wait and you call out the wait, you get a punish. The opponent could also choose some defensive option and retreat in which case neither player necessarily benefits. It's a mix-up situation.

At high percents where you can't ASDI down the opponent's jab, jab is possibly the opponent's preferred option. Also if the opponent has a 5 frame or 6 frame move, suddenly shield is part of the mix-up situation. The main choices are: shield, wait, spot dodge, attack.

After a +2 aerial to whiffed grab, you are at a significant disadvantage if your opponent has a 22 frame spot dodge. You're -6: meaning if the opponent acts frame perfectly, you can't avoid getting grabbed. If they're late and you do get out a spot dodge, they'll still be plus on you once the spot dodge ends.

These situations are very character dependent, spacing dependent, and percent dependent.

If your grab has greater range than your opponent's and you're spaced outside their grab range, whiffing grab may have little to no disadvantage. Again, the situation is very different depending on different factors. But against some characters spacing your grab in this way makes an already favorable mix-up situation even more favorable- the worst case scenario isn't even bad.

It's important to know the frame data of the opponent's spot dodge if you're going for optimal shield pressure.




+2 Shield Pressure vs +4 Shield Pressure

At both levels of advantage, down smash beats every option except hold shield. This is obviously very favorable. But down smashing isn't necessarily the best option.

Down smash is always negative on shield. But it is less negative if you connect with later hits. You can see how negative down smash is on shield by checking the Peach frame data thread (https://smashboards.com/threads/peach-hitboxes-and-frame-data-thread-remastered.425917/).

The closer you are to your opponent, the more likely you are to land every hit of down smash. But if you are too close and they are facing you, you can always get grabbed. Often if you can down smash someone on the back of their shield, that is preferable. Shield pressure in general is preferable on the back of the opponent's shield.

If you can space down smash in such a way as to land with the optimal amount of hits while still staying out of grab range, then down smash probably isn't a bad choice. But keep in mind the opponent can always shield DI to limit your chances of landing every hit of down smash. And against many of the top tiers, their punish for down smash on shield is greater than the reward you would get for landing the down smash.

If down smash beats every option except holding shield, what beats holding shield? Grab. And what beats grab? At +2, spot dodge and roll. At +4, just spot dodge. This is where the information about your grab getting spot dodged is relevant.

At a +2 advantage, if your opponent has a 22 frame spot dodge and spot dodges your grab, you'll probably get grabbed. Whereas at +4, if the opponent spot dodges your grab with a 22 frame spot dodge, you're not screwed.

Against worst spot dodges, at +2 it might not be very risky to go for the grab. A +2 advantage is significantly better against characters without 22 frame spot dodges.

At +4 you have the luxury of not having to use down smash in your mix-up. You don't have to worry about down smashing their shield and getting punished. Instead you can mix-up grab and wait (not in equal proportion- you probably will grab much more than you wait). At worst they either: spot dodge your grab or attack while you are waiting. If they spot dodge your grab, it's the mix-up situation we've talked about earlier. If they attack your wait, that's too bad. This shouldn't happen very often though as attacking is basically a hard call out on you waiting to punish a spot dodge and you shouldn't be doing that very often.

Here are some important details to consider when considering the benefits of a +2 aerial compared to a +4 aerial:

-What type of spot dodge does my opponent have?
-Does my opponent have a 7 frame grab? Do they have a move faster than that they can hit me with if I whiff grab? Am I at a percent where I can ASDI down my opponent's jab?
-Is my grab range greater than theirs? If so, can I space my grab in such a way they can't grab me if they spot dodge?
-Do they have a good punish for down smash on shield? Can I space my down smash so I connect with as many hits as possible while still avoiding their grab?

There are many more variables you could consider but these are some of the most important ones.
 
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CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
386
#9
Turnip Drop -> Double Jump Cancel Nair


The Basics

This is a good, stylish option I've been using for a while. It's really solid but isn't used by Peaches currently.

This technique is mostly useful when you are in shield holding a turnip and the opponent is pressuring your shield. You might want to nair out of shield as that is a classic Peach option to get out of shield pressure (nair comes out frame 8). But you can't nair out of shield if you are holding a turnip; you have to float cancel nair out of shield which is two frames slower than regular nair (frame 10).

Turnip drop is Peach's fastest out of shield option, coming out frame 6 (the same speed as Falco shine out of shield or Puff rest out of shield). Turnip drop is a faster option than nair but it's really weak. To get the best of both worlds, you want to combo the turnip drop into a stronger attack- nair. Against most characters, if they aren't holding down and away, turnip drop -> DJC nair is a combo. If the opponent expects it, they can smash DI the turnip to escape at higher percents, but very few people expect this option.

Turnip drop -> DJC nair works at mid percents against most of the cast. It seems to work especially well against Marth and characters around his general weight.

Why DJC nair? Why not just nair? The double jump just makes sure that you will be actionable quickly after the nair. You don't have to DJC but that's how I do the technique. Keep in mind the double jump doesn't waste any frames as you can't nair the frame after dropping a turnip.

You can also turnip drop -> float cancel nair. This option is better than turnip drop -> DJC nair since you don't have as much lag after the nair. It is significantly harder, however.

Here's the inputs for turnip drop -> DJC nair out of shield:
  1. Jump
  2. Drop turnip
  3. Double jump
  4. Nair
  5. Fast Fall
  6. L-Cancel

Q-drop out of shield is another high level out of shield option that is as of yet virtually unused (except by a few players such as Ryobeat). This option is significantly easier than Q-drop and is also an effective out of shield option.



Turnip Trap

A turnip trap is when you either turnip drop -> DJC aerial or turnip drop -> FC aerial and the aerial hits into the turnip instead of the turnip hitting into the aerial. If that description doesn't make intuitive sense, there's an example under Examples.

Sometimes when I mess up turnip drop -> DJC nair, my nair will connect before the turnip and will hit the opponent into the dropped turnip. This happens when you didn't drop the turnip directly on the opponent. For instance, you might have jumped too high before you released the turnip. In this case, the opponent will go basically nowhere after getting hit by nair into the dropped turnip. You may be able to quickly follow up after this exchange though it probably won't be a true combo. This is very similar to bat drop techniques used in Home Run Contest.

I basically never do this technique intentionally but I do think it has potential. I'm often able to follow up after I do it since the opponent has no idea what just happened. This is also an area where turnip drop -> FC nair would possibly be best. The float cancel would allow more frames to follow up after the turnip drop connects.

I want to experiment more with turnip traps in the future.



Examples

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/299447453?t=02h21m50s : two in quick succession. The first is an accidental turnip trap.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/299447453?t=02h22m43s : on shield
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/299447453?t=03h18m02s : also on shield
https://youtu.be/gd7QcPsF1RY?t=431 : some style in an edge guard

I swear I have more/better clips of this but it's hard to remember when I've used this technique. It is good out of shield- I swear! ^ _ ^
 
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