My Smash Corner's Latest Video Discusses the Nature of Bans in Competitive Smash

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Have you ever wondered why certain aspects of gameplay are banned in a tournament setting of games, including every Super Smash Bros. title? My Smash Corner, a popular Smash YouTube channel, uploaded a video shining light on this topic for players to understand why and what causes a ban to happen.


In the video, Ambrose, the man behind My Smash Corner, brings ups the ever popular question: “Why is wobbling in Super Smash Bros. Melee not banned?". He also explains the dynamics behind controversial decisions in the community such as Meta Knight's legality and stalling rules.

For more content like this, My Smash Corner is one of the premier educational Smash Wii U video producers. Be sure to check them out on YouTube should you be interested.
 
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Dominic "RayOfCannon" William

Comments

#6
Yeah, there's a lot of glitches when it comes to custom moves.
And yeah, custom-sized Miis are insanely powerful.
But Guest XXXX Miis are not glitched AND not overpowered. Also, they don't need to unlock their customs.

As for stuff like "banning Cloud", I could only see that being a thing in doubles (where he can just limit camp and come out of nowhere with LBCS). Bayonetta was patched, and sure she's still got some really powerful tools, but as the meta against her develops, she'll probably fall into a Melee Ice Climbers-like position.
 
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#7
They're banned because they're a ****ing logistical nightmare on top of being randomly unbalancing jank.
You make me laugh, silly. If you said this around a year ago, maybe it would make sense, but now and days, people either have 1) hacking tools to allow them to get all of the customs in Smash 4, and subsequently let others get them or 2) already have customs and can just simply transfer them from system to system.

As well, they aren't "randomly unbalanced jank". You, nor anyone really, have ever tested this out for yourself to see which is random, unbalanced or jank. In many ways, one can argue that many of the customs that we have are indeed balanced, save for a select few, but the majority we have are balanced and can easily be tested.

But it's people like you devaluing the possibility of using customs that's the complete problem now and days. With all that players have now, with our tools and methods of getting customs, there's no reason we cannot host tournaments or keep them banned.

For example...
I could easily argue for the worth and value of unbanning Link's Boomerang Custom from the list, since it's the most balanced of them all. But with this "all or nothing" thing we have for Customs, it can't happen despite it being among the most balanced Customs in the game.

Banning Customs in today's standard is a complete and utter joke and should have been considered a joke day 1.
 
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#8
Does Umbra Clock Tower fall under "Ban Worthy"? I don't know why, but back at the time, before Umbra Clock Tower came out (and even when it was out), people thought it had the chance to be legal. I thought when it came out, many tourneys would try the stage for while, but barely any did. Even with those that did, it was rarely ever given a chance with the stage being gone within a week or so.

I'm fine with Umbra Clock Tower being legal or banned, but I thought it was banned prematurely. Still, everything I'm saying at this point doesn't matter since the stage is perma-banned and no one will revisit it anyways.
 
#9
You make me laugh, silly. If you said this around a year ago, maybe it would make sense, but now and days, people either have 1) hacking tools to allow them to get all of the customs in Smash 4, and subsequently let others get them or 2) already have customs and can just simply transfer them from system to system.

As well, they aren't "randomly unbalanced jank". You, nor anyone really, have ever tested this out for yourself to see which is random, unbalanced or jank. In many ways, one can argue that many of the customs that we have are indeed balanced, save for a select few, but the majority we have are balanced and can easily be tested.

But it's people like you devaluing the possibility of using customs that's the complete problem now and days. With all that players have now, with our tools and methods of getting customs, there's no reason we cannot host tournaments or keep them banned.

For example...
I could easily argue for the worth and value of unbanning Link's Boomerang Custom from the list, since it's the most balanced of them all. But with this "all or nothing" thing we have for Customs, it can't happen despite it being among the most balanced Customs in the game.

Banning Customs in today's standard is a complete and utter joke and should have been considered a joke day 1.
Too much meta for them I guess. But that's how the people that decides the ruleset wanted.
 
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#10
You make me laugh, silly. If you said this around a year ago, maybe it would make sense, but now and days, people either have 1) hacking tools to allow them to get all of the customs in Smash 4, and subsequently let others get them or 2) already have customs and can just simply transfer them from system to system.

As well, they aren't "randomly unbalanced jank". You, nor anyone really, have ever tested this out for yourself to see which is random, unbalanced or jank. In many ways, one can argue that many of the customs that we have are indeed balanced, save for a select few, but the majority we have are balanced and can easily be tested.

But it's people like you devaluing the possibility of using customs that's the complete problem now and days. With all that players have now, with our tools and methods of getting customs, there's no reason we cannot host tournaments or keep them banned.

For example...
I could easily argue for the worth and value of unbanning Link's Boomerang Custom from the list, since it's the most balanced of them all. But with this "all or nothing" thing we have for Customs, it can't happen despite it being among the most balanced Customs in the game.

Banning Customs in today's standard is a complete and utter joke and should have been considered a joke day 1.
Yeah quickly downloading every custom to every tournament Wii u sounds quick and easy.

Also it would be undeniably random in tournaments.
Say you're playing against a Ganondorf and he tries his Warlock Punch, So you get a bit out of range so you can quickly grab him. Then he had customs on and pulls out a Sword and hits you.

Sounds right for a tournament setting.
 
#11
Yeah quickly downloading every custom to every tournament Wii u sounds quick and easy.

Also it would be undeniably random in tournaments.
Say you're playing against a Ganondorf and he tries his Warlock Punch, So you get a bit out of range so you can quickly grab him. Then he had customs on and pulls out a Sword and hits you.

Sounds right for a tournament setting.
I agree! Tiptoeing around and learning how a particular fighter plays is haaaaaaard. I just want a copy/paste match up every single time instead of a couple more variations. As my mom once said, stale bread is fine unless it's moldy!
 
#12
I agree! Tiptoeing around and learning how a particular fighter plays is haaaaaaard. I just want a copy/paste match up every single time instead of a couple more variations. As my mom once said, stale bread is fine unless it's moldy!
We should just determine what the most balanced set of customs for each character is and use those always. At the moment I consider the most balanced the best one that doesn't make a character better than the current no-custom top 3, but that can be debated. This would save time unlocking all the customs for each character 11 out of 12 times andserve as an additional balancer to the game. The only issue with this is that some characters would be completely redefined by this change, meaning everyone would have to relearn the MU.
 
#13
It's one thing, to have to learn every individual characters' stats,movesets, hit-boxes, etc. But then, to suggest we also be forced to learn every single variety of POTENTIAL movesets that COULD be used for an individual character? While I admit, variety adds a "spark" and can be "Fun", I don't think they have any place in a serious tournament setting. Additionally, customs in particular can give the individual who is using the custom moves an "edge" over the individual who is not using customs (If for instance, that person did not know of the move in particular).

All i'm saying is, I think custom tournaments, and regular default tournaments should be separate, not one in the same. Additionally, from a casual spectator point of view, as well as from a commentator perspective (I would imagine) custom moves only incite more confusion


Like I said, keep them separate, but don't ban custom tournaments.
 
#14
Yeah quickly downloading every custom to every tournament Wii u sounds quick and easy.

Also it would be undeniably random in tournaments.
Say you're playing against a Ganondorf and he tries his Warlock Punch, So you get a bit out of range so you can quickly grab him. Then he had customs on and pulls out a Sword and hits you.

Sounds right for a tournament setting.
Warlock Blade has the buffs of speed [slightly], range and shield damage, but you're also compensating for the lack of kill power the attack has and less safety before the attack comes out. As well, you forget that the attack is still slow and predictable, making it kind of pointless to argue that last part. The attack might have some benefits, but Blade is still about as bad as Punch, just that it has some more range and can kill with a tip.
 
#15
Arguments against Customs have never made sense.
But at this point I stopped arguing because no matter what you say, the opposition has the upper hand already, they just need to keep denying anything you say, keep not making sense, and they'll still win.
Customs is easily to learn if you sit down and look at the Customization screen and descriptions (or even better, pick some yourself to know them!) instead of just turning the Console on to mash buttons.
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#17
I agree! Tiptoeing around and learning how a particular fighter plays is haaaaaaard. I just want a copy/paste match up every single time instead of a couple more variations. As my mom once said, stale bread is fine unless it's moldy!
So you're saying you're sick of seeing common combos?
Why do you play a fighting game again?


Warlock Blade has the buffs of speed [slightly], range and shield damage, but you're also compensating for the lack of kill power the attack has and less safety before the attack comes out. As well, you forget that the attack is still slow and predictable, making it kind of pointless to argue that last part. The attack might have some benefits, but Blade is still about as bad as Punch, just that it has some more range and can kill with a tip.
I don't care if it doesn't kill, getting hit by something that you reacted to only for him to hit you anyway is pathetic.
Even if that example i made isn't a good example because it's still very slow and you could just move away again there are other faster attacks you could react do and still get hit.

Arguments against Customs have never made sense.
But at this point I stopped arguing because no matter what you say, the opposition has the upper hand already, they just need to keep denying anything you say, keep not making sense, and they'll still win.
Customs is easily to learn if you sit down and look at the Customization screen and descriptions (or even better, pick some yourself to know them!) instead of just turning the Console on to mash buttons.
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Even if customs are easy to understand they're still unneeded. It's not as if our Meta isn't already developing. This game is only 2 years old not 15.
 
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#20
Does Umbra Clock Tower fall under "Ban Worthy"? I don't know why, but back at the time, before Umbra Clock Tower came out (and even when it was out), people thought it had the chance to be legal. I thought when it came out, many tourneys would try the stage for while, but barely any did. Even with those that did, it was rarely ever given a chance with the stage being gone within a week or so.

I'm fine with Umbra Clock Tower being legal or banned, but I thought it was banned prematurely. Still, everything I'm saying at this point doesn't matter since the stage is perma-banned and no one will revisit it anyways.
At certain points the sides of the stage have hit boxes which could be abused
 
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#22
I don't care if it doesn't kill, getting hit by something that you reacted to only for him to hit you anyway is pathetic.
Even if that example i made isn't a good example because it's still very slow and you could just move away again there are other faster attacks you could react do and still get hit.
Dude, if you're getting hit by Warlock Blade, you're doing something wrong.
If you're complaining about a custom that doesn't have a lingering hitbox like Link's N-Air, you're doing something wrong.
If you're giving fodder for people to prove you wrong, you're doing something wrong!
 
#23
Dude, if you're getting hit by Warlock Blade, you're doing something wrong.
If you're complaining about a custom that doesn't have a lingering hitbox like Link's N-Air, you're doing something wrong.
If you're giving fodder for people to prove you wrong, you're doing something wrong!
Hey buddy did you read the part where i said it was a bad example?
 
#25
Custom moves were patched.
-Extreme Balloon Trip's distance was reduced when used too consecutively.
-Pikachu's stunning jolt's tripping effect's rate was increased so it was less likely to loop.
-A good number of custom moves got ending lag reduction.

Those are on the top of my head, without actually checking which ones I am missing.
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#28
Other fgcs have something similar to custom moves in their games and they don't get banned. A lot of Capcom games like Ultra Street Fighter IV let you pick different ultras and supers. Pokken Tournament lets you choose between different support sets and you can even switch midgame. Mortal Kombat XL gives each character 3 different movesets.

I don't get why so many people in our community are against custom moves. It's dumb :c
 
#29
Yeah quickly downloading every custom to every tournament Wii u sounds quick and easy.

Also it would be undeniably random in tournaments.
Say you're playing against a Ganondorf and he tries his Warlock Punch, So you get a bit out of range so you can quickly grab him. Then he had customs on and pulls out a Sword and hits you.

Sounds right for a tournament setting.
You get to see the customs your opponent sets so the only way this could happen is if you weren't paying attention.
 
#31
So you have to wait 10 minutes instead!
Yay!
You're really grasping at straws kid lol. In the examples I gave, people pick their moves in less than 1 minute on average because there expected to know what they want. There is actual reason to ban in Smash 4 at this point.
 
#32
You're really grasping at straws kid lol. In the examples I gave, people pick their moves in less than 1 minute on average because there expected to know what they want. There is actual reason to ban in Smash 4 at this point.
Doesn't matter. You could not know how the moves work, you could have got to the game late, and also this would give a huge disadvantage to DLC characters.

And no matter what custom fans say, some customs are undeniably op.
Take Kong Cyclone for an example.
It pulls opponents in, Starts with a weak hit but then a strong hit that can kill. little starting lag and has Super armor throughout the attack.

Or Villagers timber counter. The sapling trips opponents, like a permanent Diddy banana, And the grown tree counters, like a permanent Marth counter, and we can't forget how good the axe is.
The only down side is when you cut it down it doesn't do as much damage or knockback but when does that tree hit anyway?

Also as you said a few posts back how other FGs have customs, well yeah.
But changing your support Pokemon which is a very known and important part of the game isn't as big as changing 5 of your attacks to their OP counterparts.

There was a reason why customs weren't in Evo 2016 like they were last year.
 
#33
I could have a party arguing against each part of that last post, each and every single one of your arguments has a counter.

But as I said earlier, it doesn't matter how bad your argument may be, or how good ours could.
As long as you (and I do not talk about you specifically, Linkip, I talk about "you, anti-custom people") keep refusing them, you'll still be in the ultimately triumphant side.
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#34
Doesn't matter. You could not know how the moves work, you could have got to the game late, and also this would give a huge disadvantage to DLC characters.

And no matter what custom fans say, some customs are undeniably op.
Take Kong Cyclone for an example.
It pulls opponents in, Starts with a weak hit but then a strong hit that can kill. little starting lag and has Super armor throughout the attack.

Or Villagers timber counter. The sapling trips opponents, like a permanent Diddy banana, And the grown tree counters, like a permanent Marth counter, and we can't forget how good the axe is.
The only down side is when you cut it down it doesn't do as much damage or knockback but when does that tree hit anyway?

Also as you said a few posts back how other FGs have customs, well yeah.
But changing your support Pokemon which is a very known and important part of the game isn't as big as changing 5 of your attacks to their OP counterparts.

There was a reason why customs weren't in Evo 2016 like they were last year.
Noone has ever banned something because other players "could not know how the moves work." You're expected to know how the moves work in the game you're playing competitively. If you don't know how any move, even customs, work in the game, stick to For Fun. DLC characters would just have less options to choose from. More than half the customs are pretty poopy anyhow.

You can shield the Kong Cyclone, use a ranged grab like zss's to grab your foe before he reaches you, or just keep dk out with projectiles.

The sapling gets avoided like a bannana does.

Sure some customs are good, but so are some characters. Diddy hasn't gotten banned yet has he? And even when we did have customs, the ones you listed did not dominate the game. DK and Villager never top 8ed any major.

You missed my point about other fgcs. Other fgs have customs IN competitive play and those games thrived. Smash would be no different. All you have to do is look through the customs which they lay out for you in the game and explain individually and learn what they all do. and customs only change 4 specials btw, because there are only 4 specials to change.

And some playstyles in Pokken revolve around support pokemon.

Customs werent at Evo because the majority of the smash community is full of casuals that either don't want to put in any more work than they think they need to or dont understand customs to begin with.
 
#35
Noone has ever banned something because other players "could not know how the moves work." You're expected to know how the moves work in the game you're playing competitively. If you don't know how any move, even customs, work in the game, stick to For Fun. DLC characters would just have less options to choose from. More than half the customs are pretty poopy anyhow.

You can shield the Kong Cyclone, use a ranged grab like zss's to grab your foe before he reaches you, or just keep dk out with projectiles.

The sapling gets avoided like a bannana does.

Sure some customs are good, but so are some characters. Diddy hasn't gotten banned yet has he? And even when we did have customs, the ones you listed did not dominate the game. DK and Villager never top 8ed any major.

You missed my point about other fgcs. Other fgs have customs IN competitive play and those games thrived. Smash would be no different. All you have to do is look through the customs which they lay out for you in the game and explain individually and learn what they all do. and customs only change 4 specials btw, because there are only 4 specials to change.

And some playstyles in Pokken revolve around support pokemon.

Customs werent at Evo because the majority of the smash community is full of casuals that either don't want to put in any more work than they think they need to or dont understand customs to begin with.
Even if everyone did memorize every custom it would be near impossible to memorize every MU. So we all know that Rosa's down b stops Ness and Lucas's up b. But what if the Rosa changed her down B to guardian shield and you need to learn to play against that instead.
Now imagine that times 4 if you change each custom move. And then imagine that for every character. 150 more move sets to memorize.
And then people mix and match them and it spirals out of control.
The moves we already have are still being used in new ways so why add more.


Their are counters to every move doesn't mean their not broken.
That's like saying pre patch Bayo is perfectly fine because you can just SDI out of her witch twist xddd 100% balanced, Or
They shouldn't have patched Hoo-Hah just be more careful lol.

Smash 4 is already thriving without unbalanced messes.

15 support sets in Pokken versus hundreds more attacks in Smash 4 are different.

ZeRo doesn't want customs either. What a filthy casual.

Edit: Ranai got 5th at Evo. So Villager did get top 8 in the biggest tournament of the year.
 
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#36
Even if everyone did memorize every custom it would be near impossible to memorize every MU. So we all know that Rosa's down b stops Ness and Lucas's up b. But what if the Rosa changed her down B to guardian shield and you need to learn to play against that instead.
Now imagine that times 4 if you change each custom move. And then imagine that for every character. 150 more move sets to memorize.
And then people mix and match them and it spirals out of control.
The moves we already have are still being used in new ways so why add more.


Their are counters to every move doesn't mean their not broken.
That's like saying pre patch Bayo is perfectly fine because you can just SDI out of her witch twist xddd 100% balanced, Or
They shouldn't have patched Hoo-Hah just be more careful lol.

Smash 4 is already thriving without unbalanced messes.

15 support sets in Pokken versus hundreds more attacks in Smash 4 are different.

ZeRo doesn't want customs either. What a filthy casual.

Edit: Ranai got 5th at Evo. So Villager did get top 8 in the biggest tournament of the year.
You keep saying that it'd be hard to memorize all the custom moves but when customs were legal, good players were already doing. Not too mention that there are already at least 18 moves for each character. Top players don't know every mu and that's why players like Zero lose too Paulutena. Does that mean we should ban low tiers? No, that's stupid. At the same time, you won't even have to memorize all the customs because they're not all good, just like you don't always have to know all the characters because they're not all good. Customs making the game more difficult for some players isn't a reason to ban them and I'm kind of sick of hearing that argument. It's things like that that make the Sm4sh community weak.

And Sdi'ing out of bayos moves is way different than dealing with one special with super armor and you can bet that 90% of community would back me on that. And they patched hoo-hah because it actually dominated the game. When customs were around, they did not dominate the game. (Notice a theme here? I'm stating facts, you're not.)

Smash 4 is doing well, but it is not thriving. Ultra Street Fighter IV? That game thrived, pulling in thousands of more viewers. And I never got how customs could make the game both unbalanced and broken. You said that DK's cyclone whatever is op right (which its not)? Good. That means he's raised on the tier list and the game is more balanced. Even then, Sakurai has patched customs a bunch already.

Sure, there's around 240 custom moves, but most of those moves weren't even viable.

When did he say that? Even if he did, he wasn't against the hoo hah, so why tf would I listen to him. Zero isn't the authority of the Smash community anyway.

And I was talking about Evo 2015, when there was customs. You don't know what you're talking about and it's been that way ever since you're first comment on this thread.
 
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#37
You keep saying that it'd be hard to memorize all the custom moves but when customs were legal, good players were already doing. Not too mention that there are already at least 18 moves for each character. Top players don't know every mu and that's why players like Zero lose too Paulutena. Does that mean we should ban low tiers? No, that's stupid. At the same time, you won't even have to memorize all the customs because they're not all good, just like you don't always have to know all the characters because they're not all good. Customs making the game more difficult for some players isn't a reason to ban them and I'm kind of sick of hearing that argument. It's things like that that make the Sm4sh community weak.

And Sdi'ing out of bayos moves is way different than dealing with one special with super armor and you can bet that 90% of community would back me on that. And they patched hoo-hah because it actually dominated the game. When customs were around, they did not dominate the game. (Notice a theme here? I'm stating facts, you're not.)

Smash 4 is doing well, but it is not thriving. Ultra Street Fighter IV? That game thrived, pulling in thousands of more viewers. And I never got how customs could make the game both unbalanced and broken. You said that DK's cyclone whatever is op right (which its not)? Good. That means he's raised on the tier list and the game is more balanced. Even then, Sakurai has patched customs a bunch already.

Sure, there's around 240 custom moves, but most of those moves weren't even viable.

When did he say that? Even if he did, he wasn't against the hoo hah, so why tf would I listen to him. Zero isn't the authority of the Smash community anyway.

And I was talking about Evo 2015, when there was customs. You don't know what you're talking about and it's been that way ever since you're first comment on this thread.
Players already struggle with matchups so lets make them struggle even more!
Good point mate.
So now when i play against a character i feel confident facing like Mario i just have to hope he doesn't use that one custom i struggle with and he has to hope i don't use that 1 custom he struggles with.
It would be a lot more fun if we know what the other player could do and it was a test of skill not whoever chose the right custom.

While we're at it lets change the format to Smash Tour only.
Smash tour has so much more variety i never get why we play 1v1 in the first place.
Items high btw.

Honestly i see your point but i don't think it'll work.
To random no matter what and
To unbalanced no matter what.
And having unbalanced customs will probably just make other FGs think smash 4 is a casual game even more.

And yeah i know their not all good but it would still be super hard playing against a good Jiggs if you didn't know her moves. Even if Jiggs is the worst character in the game.

And i know ZeRo is not the authority of smash but saying everyone anti custom is a casual is dumb.

Oh and btw ranai wasn't even in evo 2015.
But he was at Evo 2016 so if customs were at Evo 2016 he could have won because of the broken down b.

Anyway neither of us are gonna give in so lets just stop.
Even if you're right and customs would turn sm4sh into a big Esport i feel it would deeply worsen the experience.
End of story.
 
#38
Players already struggle with matchups so lets make them struggle even more!
Good point mate.
So now when i play against a character i feel confident facing like Mario i just have to hope he doesn't use that one custom i struggle with and he has to hope i don't use that 1 custom he struggles with.
It would be a lot more fun if we know what the other player could do and it was a test of skill not whoever chose the right custom.

While we're at it lets change the format to Smash Tour only.
Smash tour has so much more variety i never get why we play 1v1 in the first place.
Items high btw.

Honestly i see your point but i don't think it'll work.
To random no matter what and
To unbalanced no matter what.
And having unbalanced customs will probably just make other FGs think smash 4 is a casual game even more.

And yeah i know their not all good but it would still be super hard playing against a good Jiggs if you didn't know her moves. Even if Jiggs is the worst character in the game.

And i know ZeRo is not the authority of smash but saying everyone anti custom is a casual is dumb.

Oh and btw ranai wasn't even in evo 2015.
But he was at Evo 2016 so if customs were at Evo 2016 he could have won because of the broken down b.

Anyway neither of us are gonna give in so lets just stop.
Even if you're right and customs would turn sm4sh into a big Esport i feel it would deeply worsen the experience.
End of story.
The discussion has gotten to the point where both parties are just repeating themselves. I think that last paragraph sums everything up perfectly. Whatever the pro-customs party says, the anti-customs party will say that the game will get worse no matter what anyone says.

We just see the game as well as what customs are differently. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Alot of the TO's don't like to take risks because they're afraid of the backlash so customs will never be anything more than a side event :urg:
 
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