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My personal findings on 3.5 MK's move set

Sadface

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Hello, I've played mk since 2.6 and have been doing decently well in my region in tournament. I messaged this to someone and they told me I should archive it here. He was a marth player which is why I relate some things mk has to marth in here. Sorry for the disorganization I may fix that and add more info later such as actual sections like neutral game, combos, etc but for now its just an info dump along with videos of me playing several matchups.

MK has a good dash speed and dash dance, use it to bait people to make a mistake and go for a boost or JC grab and tech chase with back throw under 40%. after that use d throw to continue the chase for another 40% depending on their floatiness (for both throws).

U throw to Instant dimensional cape (flick the c stick in a direction, different directions on both sticks vary results, look on smashboards for a guide to dimensional cape) (after u throw I use c stick down) around 90-110% is a great finisher.

Nair is your best friend. Frame 3 sex kick that has 3 different strengths. Initial(strong)/Middle(moderate)/end(weak) dealing 12/8/4 damage respectively. It has decent range all around his body and is great to shffl into itself sometimes. Nair -> Dtilt can be decent for approaching certain characters like falcon or sonic. Nair OOS is the best thing ever.

Dtilt can lead into u air strings if you hit the hilt, sends them away similar to marth d tilt at the tip. At higher % d tilt to pop up into Up b can be a decent finisher. Fast fallers/ semi fast fallers can be killed alternatively with IDC (instant dimensional cape) after d tilt.

Meta knight is a special character in PM and brawl where most of his moves have transcendent priority. think of this as laser type priority. It means his hitboxes (except for dash attack) never clank with other hitboxes. This means his attacks that would be overpowered but stronger ones (8% more damage or higher i think) do not cancel MK's attacks. instead the hitboxes ignore each other and go on. This is a double edge sword. On one hand it means mk's fast hitboxes will hit the opponent and at worst trade. On the other, it means MK is the worst character vs projectiles. You can only block them, avoid them, or dash attack some weaker ones.

You can angle side b up or down slightly when its moving, to help aid recovery, use this to adjust your position since side b doesn't easily grab edge (at least compared to 3.02). Learn to reverse shuttle loop under stages like battlefield (up b facing away when under the corner of the stage). It is much better than up b when facing the stage in terms of height. Neutral b is a last resort mashing recovery move that is easily stuffed out by hitboxes. It can also kill people off the top as an alternative to up b when u airing people.

Down b can be a recovery and kill move at the same time to unsuspecting opponents, and the fully charged version is his strongest kill move.

Up smash juggles spacies to 50% roughly. then it leads to u air. Jab hits behind you so use it as a gtfo move but sparingly, its unsafe on block. Bair is the most safe move on block, a super late bair will be +0 frame advantage. Cross up nair isn't bad either at -2. Fair is a combo extender and may lead to down b at certain mid % but is prone to sending them behind you when you are pushing forward with it, so its awkward.

Side b can be a decent option in a tech chase, and pops them up after 40ish % for a good combo juggle. can be ok against unsuspecting Dash dance camping opponents.

F smash is a good edge guarding tool. almost 0 endlag so you can cover another option after it rips, similar to how marth uses d tilt at edge. F smash whiffs cause they rolled? you'll have time for a pivot grab to punish. Super safe on block, unless poorly spaced. D smash is a good way to cash in your tech chase early when you flub. covers in front and behind you in a good timing for when they roll in front/behind. Dair can be good to put people in a tech chase situation and people rarely tech it since it puts them on the ground quite fast when they get hit by it and they're standing and at 50% or so.

F throw is decent at starting a combo on floaties at 0%. after that use d throw. D throw to d smash for quick damage against most characters. Larger character like DK get chain grabbed unless they buffer a roll.

Most of MK's moves (like marth) are bad vs crouch cancel. So grab a lot at low % unless they don't know to CC. F tilt is super CC able but when they dont it is a great combo tool and gives you good positional advantage. U tilt is massively disjointed and can lead into u air or up b at middle %'s.

Dash attack leads into a lot and is safe on block when you end behind their sheild if they dont have a great bair OOS. Probably his longest range move.

MK, loves platforms so he can poke with u airs since they have such low endlag in the air. also u tilt is good. They allow you to mix up your recovery as well. I like battlefield since it leads to me having many opportunities to shark, and edgeduard with nairs and bairs using most of his jumps. Low ceilings like Ps2, yoshis, etc can be good for mk as well to help up b kills out of u throw in floaties if they DI behind you/ in you to stop you from IDCing them. Dream land isn't bad either since MK is the 2nd lightest character in the game and surviving helps in some MU's like against marth. Skyworld was my best stage as MK in 3.02 cause of mks good offstage game as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvC15G4l5IE&feature=youtu.be&t=4m53s

I haven't seen any other MK's on PM streams besides when squeak got bopped by an ex MK main who player wario, GuRu Kid. And the MK smashboards threads are kinda dead so I'll plug my own vids.


[vs sonic/diddy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCkQ9A0A-8g)

[vs falcon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlzfpWFsHy8)

[vs ZSS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hglqmL8TELY)

[vs peach](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvUgDrwtE54)

[vs marth](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Y6e_p4c_o)

[vs falcon/GW](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPy_ZrI7g3c)

[vs Ic's/pit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIqlxAgbwsI)

[vs GW/Link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZKV4DRg1vM)

[vs squirtle](http://www.twitch.tv/kneedeepgaming/b/625245883?t=95m38s)

[vs GW](http://www.twitch.tv/kneedeepgaming/b/625245883?t=116m38s)

[vs marth](http://www.twitch.tv/kneedeepgaming/b/625245883?t=126m38s)

[vs Donkey Kong](www.twitch.tv/kneedeepgaming/b/625245883?t=106m39s)
 
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MegaAmoonguss

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U throw to IDC seems interesting, seems pretty exclusive to fast fallers but I haven't tried it yet. Nice posting!
 

Kappy

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Yoooo I'm on streams for WDW in Chicago, IL :( I have a whole playlist of my stuff. LOL. I'll edit in thoughts on this later that sentence just caught my eye at first.
 

Sadface

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U throw to IDC seems interesting, seems pretty exclusive to fast fallers but I haven't tried it yet. Nice posting!
It is most certainly not exclusive to FFers, it just changes on % based on floatyness and maybe wieght, still haven't confirmed that, the frame data guide will. On marth you can u throw IDC if they DI in front of you at like 70-90 ish, puff is like 50 maybe. If they DI behind to a double jump backwards to turn around and then IDC, the input is weird but I was getting the hang of it as I practiced it tonight. Also f throw on marth is a DI mixup if you know they are already DI'ing for the u throw backwards. F throw with bad DI leads into up b or IDC at mid % on marth. I am convinced all of MK's throws are usable in different situations, but they still need extensive testing with DI. U throw to bair at 50 I think is guaranteed, nair/u air is an option too I think. I'm gonna test out dair out of u throw at lower % and see if IDC can convert off of dair, based on the angle dair sends it may work. I'll post here if I find anything even remotely usable. Thanks for the feedback.
 

Sadface

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Yoooo I'm on streams for WDW in Chicago, IL :( I have a whole playlist of my stuff. LOL. I'll edit in thoughts on this later that sentence just caught my eye at first.
I watched you on wind city smash and am really impressed with all of your conversions of IDC off of b throw and f throw vs scythe's roy. I would have been tempted to jump out of f throw to IDC but you knew roy's fallspeed allowed for just the dash IDC to combo. And using down b to sweet spot from above the ledge is very nice, curious what MK's hurtbox looks like during DC and if many f smashes can interrupt it.
 

Kappy

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Thanks! I think I've got really good IDC setups - it's one of my style points as a player besides my obsessive use of double aerials that I frequently miss the execution for. LOL.

DThrow isn't negative at 0%. I'm pretty sure you can shield before Fox can USmash you, but even if I'm wrong, it's gotta be a tight timing window to pull that off. Depending on the character, MK can actually Dsmash out of DThrow on bad DI at low %'s, which is really good for quick damage, especially if they're at 0%. Otherwise yes, Fthrow and Bthrow are good go-to options at low %'s, but I like them at mid %'s more because you can get some sick stuff off of them (especially with bad DI).

For Uthrow to IDC, it's guaranteed on a very large portion of the cast at varying %'s. I can't really tell you what they are - I literally Uthrow sometimes just because I feel like I can hit an IDC, and I usually do. LOL. It's probably somewthing someone could test at some point, but generally speaking between 40% and 100% is the range you'll find for most of the cast.
 

Sadface

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Ahh I see, it just felt negative, but having to blockt after a throw still is kinda :(

My friend plays G&W and he's d tilted me out of it but maybe I coulda blocked, idk.

I've been trying out sh double u air but using the c stick I'm too slow for the 2nd u air and with up and A I usually full hop or something. which method do you use?
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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Ahh I see, it just felt negative, but having to blockt after a throw still is kinda :(

My friend plays G&W and he's d tilted me out of it but maybe I coulda blocked, idk.

I've been trying out sh double u air but using the c stick I'm too slow for the 2nd u air and with up and A I usually full hop or something. which method do you use?
Turn tap jump off
 

Kappy

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I use tap jump. LOL. I flick the Joystick up and do a rising Uair ASAP and then do a falling one.
 

Chesstiger2612

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Why use d-throw at low %s if you have a very small frame disadvantage? I'd just f-throw/b-throw mixup (those are his throws fast enough so the DI has to be guessed) until you are in the percentage range where up-throw can lead to followups. At high percents down-throw can be a decent option (when you are out of the up-throw percentages again).
 

Kappy

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Because most characters don't tumble at 0% off of DThrow and they're not in the air for a long time so a lot of players freeze and you can get a free regrab because they're still trying to register stuff in their head and don't react quickly. And on big characters you basically get a free Ftilt or DSmash. Also Dthrow does more dmg than the other throws. LOL.
 

Chesstiger2612

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Your first reason is basically it being a gimmick, that's fine but I don't like using gimmicks myself. I don't see why big characters can't WL out when it is frame-negative. The damage argument is fine, although I think the minimal damage differences only outweigh the positional advantages if there is really nothing you can get with either throw.
 

Kappy

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You can't wave land out of DThrow's hitstun. LOL. At the end of the day, the throws MK has come down to personal preference. I like to use Dthrow at low and mid %'s, Fthrow and Bthrow high %'s, and Uthrow when I feel like I can get a gimp off of IDC and they're at the right % for it. That's not going to change anytime soon.
 

Chesstiger2612

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You can waveland out as soon as the hitstun is over. And that can be the case pretty quickly. Look at it yourself with debug mode if you don't believe me.
I don't think it is personal preference only, it should be possible to determine a best throw depending on the situation. After all, the way the game doesn't care about any preferences. I can't say that I use the optimal throws (or an optimal mixed strategy) all the time though.
Use the throw you think is best, that's your decision.
 

Chesstiger2612

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@ Sadface Sadface
Also, a bit feedback on the videos (I didn't watch the twitch ones because twitch archives are a pain):

I think you had a good gameplan in the Sonic, Falcon and kinda the G&W one. I'd have to criticize some of the concrete decisionmaking and the execution here, but it gets better with more experience.
Your systematic appoach to get the guaranteed option and transfer that advantage to the next guaranteed hit when edgeguarding tethers (in the ZSS set) was impressive. Most players get greedy and miss a hard-read f-smash or DCape and then they are in a bad spot.
I disagree about how you handled for example the Marth matchup, and one of the games vs Pit. Against characters that are good at covering air space above them both close (Marth's up-tilt, Pit's up-smash) and a bit above (multiple aerials for both if they combine it with movement), you should not be in the air that much in the neutral game. Granted, it isn't easy against Marth because he also has a strong d-tilt but if you dash dance at a really good range he has problems getting it out. Melee Sheiks are good at finding that distance, watching those sets can be pretty inspirational. So full jumping that much wasn't a good idea in those matchups.
Generally, your opponents didn't really know how to shield or avoid an approach by movement, and they were over-aggressive (no good anti-approaching) and that's why your nair approaches worked so well. You would have to mix them up with a bit more movement, approach fakeouts and grabs against stronger opponents.
You also have a bad habit of jumping OoS too often instead of wavedashing. That also makes you feel less comfortable shielding, and turns you away from shielding when it is needed. This is basically the reason why you lost the Peach set. I also think it is a top priority thing you should work on because it just helps in every aspect of the game.

About video material, many MKs focus on other characters in 3.5, and there hasn't ever been a really good MK (not to disrespect the MKs, but no one that explored MK the way Prof and Rolex did explore Snake or Sethlon explored Roy). Most MK videos out there are debating matchups where neither player has figured out the other character yet really, so gimmicks still play a role, and that minimizes the learning effect a viewer can get from it. I might be able to put some videos of my MK out in the future (gameplay & maybe also demonstration), but probably not in the near future.

Also, sorry for the double post, but edits don't tag.
 
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Sadface

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@ Chesstiger2612 Chesstiger2612

Ty for the feedback and I have been working on WD OOS lately I'm just still bad at remembering to do it in a serious match, also some of these vids aren't super recent and I've gotten a bit better since then, but only a little. Video examples sound great whenever you get to it, no rush.

When you say I should stay grounded what moves should I use then? I know dash attack is safe in some situations, and grab is preferable to get around low % CC, but I feel at a loss for what moves are best in what situations. My f tilt gets CC'd a lot and same with d tilt. I realize baiting is what I need to do a lot of the time but peaches float cancels are hard to pin down. Ike also gives me a lot of trouble since he moves so fast and has much more range, similar concept with marth.

Right now I feel like my best option is a spaced bair or spaced f smash outside of DDing until I find a whiffed move.
 

Chesstiger2612

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Staying grounded doesn't mean that you can't mix in aerial approaches, but it means that you do not commit to a full jump where you can't get down to the ground again quickly. Being on the ground has the advantage that you can shield, WD, dash dance or grab.
I'd also mention the concept of grounded movement game that can lead to an aerial option winning the neutral game. The main strength of MK's ground game is his fast dash speed, and not his tilts. You can use them in neutral, but it is often stronger to use dashdancing to bait out moves. If they don't react at all, you can still grab them. They can either wait, move or put out hitboxes, and there are counters to all of these. Moving away can be read and grabbed, and you can decide not to commit and still have the stage position advantage. Shielding is beat by grabbing, but also movement options that leave you outside of their shield grab range are fine because theyare still in their shield and in a bad spot. Putting an attack out beats the immediate approach, is beaten by a fake-approach (you could probably get up-air, nair, d-tilt, d-smash, f-tilt or grab in most of these cases as punish).
Think of it as using the opponent's uncertainty of you having done a move to your advantage.

I wouldn't think of dash attack as approach tool, even when grounded. I think its main purposes are extending combos where the opponent is relatively far away, barely still in the air and you are grounded, and catching jumps when anti-approaching. Its range is only helpful if the opponent is airborne because it is very crouch-cancellable. If you are anti-approaching (a good option that you can use against characters without projectiles that make approaching hard), so trying to counter their approach, and they jump, dash attack can catch that pretty easily. Otherwise I wouldn't use it much in the neutral game.

Spacing f-smashs in neutral is a bit double-edged. They probably won't hit, and you probably won't get punished. The idea of te strategy is that you gain a little neutral game advantage if you hit their shield, because it forces them to get of the shield somehow and iirc you also get a little frame advantage. The opponent gets a little frame advantage if it doesn't hit. Those frame advantages shouldn't be underestimated, even if they don't get a guaranteed followup.
Also many people forget that a knockdown-type techchase, guaranteed followups and stage-position related positional advantages aren't actually the only advantages you can get.
As example, if you cannot get a grab (grounded) by one frame, it still forces the opponent into a two-option-mixup (spot dodge or any otherwise good option that would get you grabbed). The spot dodge can obviously be predicted. If you have a bigger window, there might already be other options available, making it a multi-option-mixup. They would need many more frames to have all their neutral game options available, and until then I would speak of an advantage.
I'd say the actual advantage you have from frame advantages decreases exponentially with the frame number your opponent is given, and if it is barely not a true combo, there is still some "pressure" left. @Strong Bad coined the term staggered-hit game in his Ape Academy.
[...]
So basically a f-smash in neutral is a soft read (lowish risk and reward) where you bet on your opponent dashing in, in which case they would have to roll, you release the f-smash and get a little frame advantage, or they wait and you hit the f-smash on their shield. There is also the possibility that they throw out a very laggy move and you hit them, but that is rather unlikely. If they don't dash in or throw out very laggy moves, you just worsened your chances of winning the neutral game by a little.
So, while it is a good option, you shouldn't just throw it out because it is safe, but only if there is concrete reason for it.

Back-air is a bit tough in that sense that it requires you to turn around, which will make the opponent have a clue on what you are planning right now. Also the hit is a bit slow. Thinking about it like that, turnaround tomahawks could be an incredible mindgame, I should test it at some point.

About the Ike and Peach specifics, I'd need to view a game where you implement correct WD OoS to give helpful tips, because in the Peach game it just seemed to be the bottleneck of your gameplay in the Peach matchup. Some characters are hard counters to specific weaknesses and bad habits, and Peachs ability to create a huge window of attack threats via her float seems to highlight your bad habit very well. There is probably a similar habit that makes you weak in the Ike matchup, I would assume it is a too high approach/bait-ratio but I can only guess right now.
 
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