My magical/personal/informational/etc thread

[C.J.]

Basically just a compilation of things that get asked ALL the time and I'm tired of answering/things I think of and want to test but forget/things I've tested but forget to tell people/etc.

I'll update the OP whenever something worth updating it for comes along. Feel free to do.. whatever here in regards to having a "guide" we can reference/ideas you want tested/you tested ideas for me and want to let me know/someone wants to format this for me.


Punish more things w/ usmash/usmash OoS

Powershield more things. Marth has infinitely versatile punishing tools so you can always have an awesome punish out of PS.


Vs Snake at 0%:
Fthrow-> stutterstep fsmash
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> stutterstep fsmash
(both require 1-2 frame stuttersteps, any longer and they can PS)
Fthrow-> DB
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> DB
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> Fthrow-> DB
Fthrow-> aerial
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> aerial
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> Fthrow-> aerial
Fthrow-> walk forward dtilt
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> walk forward dtilt
Fthrow-> dair
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> dair (frame perfect- it's really awkward)

Vs Falco at 0%
Fthrow-> dair
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> dair
Fthrow-> fsmash
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> fsmash
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> dthrow-> fsmash
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> fsmash
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> fsmash
dthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> fsmash
dthrow-> fthrow-> fsmash
dthrow-> fthrow-> dair (someone double check this one please? I can never remember if this one is guaranteed- it might only be if fthrow is already staled once.)
(you get the idea)

vs Falco up to 7%:
dthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> fsmash

vs Falco up to 10%:
dthrow-> dthrow-> fsmash

vs Falco up to 14%:
dthrow-> fsmash

vs Falco at 0%:
FF tipper uair-> wait a moment-> grab-> dthrow-> fsmash

If you DS out of his CG because he messed up, that puts him at 13% which lets you dthrow-> fsmash

Tipper fair does 13% which lets you dthrow-> fsmash

Non-tipper DB stuff does <=13% which lets you dthrow-> fsmash


Vs both Snake and Falco:
Both of them are too tall to force an air release. If they do mash jump however:
DB on both
DA on both (if Falco is released offstage)
Fair on Snake (maayybbeeee on Falco too. I don't typically use it)
Probably nair on Snake
If it works on Falco, it also works on Diddy Kong (yay more information!)

Marth's grab game is absurd in almost every MU, especially Snake/DDD. Shield is the strongest option in the game and grab beats shield. You have good frame advantage vs the cast out of throws so you can apply pressure and create traps very easily out of grabs. You can also set up for juggles/platform pressure easily. DI required to avoid follow-ups for dthrow and fthrow are exact opposite so you can get super hard punishes off of mixing the two up. Throwing them towards the ledge creates ledge traps. I can't stress how good uthrow actually is and how much I hate everyone for not using it more.


SB is amazing vs Snake/DDD since they sit in shield forever.

Diddy/Snake/DDD/others can all get fthrowx2-> dair @ 0% which results in a 50/50 read for a kill (DDD can be fthrowx3)

You can fthrow->dair the entire cast at 0 for a potential gimp/infinite damage.
*Disclaimer- I can't seem to get dair to tipper on DK for some reason*

Yes, you can GR Squirtle into your entire moveset more-or-less

Can't play w/ people offline?
Spacing spacing spacing is the most important thing you can practice alone. Secondary to that, more spacing.
Movement/character control is also top tier in things to punish. Outside of that, get your auto-pilot/follow-ups down perfectly Have your low % grab options + GR options down perfectly as well.
On wifi, focus on MUs and how to beat options. Winning/losing doesn't matter.

Vs Waro:
0-4% you can still fthrow-> fsmash
At lowish %s I like GR-> nair since it starts combos.
I never GR-> utilt until it will kill- it doesn't set anything up and it doesn't do much damage
Mid %s I mix-up between dair and usmash based on 2 things (and it depends entirely on your opponent):
1) If your opponent can consistently tech the dair, they can usually avoid follow-ups/it'll happen quickly enough that you can't tech chase so you should usmash. if they can't tech the dair consistently, and you feel confident in your ability to tech chase, go for dair.
2) If you notice the Wario SDIing your moves well (SDIing down ofc), then run past them pivot grab as they FF dair into the ground and get grabbed by you again. Naturally, this works better at high %s since they're more focused on staying alive than they are your non-lethal follow-ups

vs MK:
FF tipper uair-> dtilt-> DB/maybe dash grab depending on DI/dsmash/fsmash works really well at super low %s like 0-4 range(shoutouts to MN for teaching me this)

FF tipper uair-> wait a moment-> grab-> dthrow fsmash works on Falco. Probably on Fox too (someone test that?)

Someone should also test, at super low %s, GR Wario into FF uair to regrab. That'd be awesome if it works- have Wario mash jump or AD or something.


Lots and lots more to come over time I'm sure.

 

[C.J.]

Marth has more versatility in how he uses fair than other characters have in their ENTIRE moveset. If your fair is getting PS'd you are doing it very VERY wrong.

That being said, and while you can mix-up different kinds of fairs in similar situations, there are a ton of different "kinds" of fair you can use and each one functions optimally in a specific way. The reason to FF fair is very very different from rising fair, which is different from FH fair, etc.

Force ADs/specific landings with aerials, empty jumps, etc. If you're comfortable hitting them with utilt/usmash/etc then go for it. Otherwise, juggle people with grabs.

DI to avoid follow-ups at higher %s for fthrow and dthrow are opposite. You can use them to get free damage.

Watch DI on uthrow to guess which throw (fthrow/dthrow) to use for the best follow-ups. Alternatively, use fthrow/dthrow to condition certain DI for free follow-ups on uthrow.

From Mango:
When stringing people, watch how they DI to try to get out of combos. That's, usually, their most "comfortable DI." When people tech a hard knockdown move, they tend to techroll in a way similar to their combo DI.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I approve. I love the random Mango input as well!

 

[reslived]

THANK YOU C.J. you are the greatest provider of information ever

 

[Sar]

That being said, and while you can mix-up different kinds of fairs in similar situations, there are a ton of different "kinds" of fair you can use and each one functions optimally in a specific way. The reason to FF fair is very very different from rising fair, which is different from FH fair, etc.

would you be able to elaborate on this? Awesome posts/thread btw

 

[Lord Chair]

fthrow nair on wario is better than Gr nair at 0, GR nair is more easily DIable also dat 4%

 

[C.J.]

Well, 0-4 i fthrow fsmash...
Low %s i meant 20ish or so when the nair out of fthrow isnt as guaranteed

 

[Pr0phetic]

would you be able to elaborate on this? Awesome posts/thread btw

Well I'm sure he'll get to you but I'll start off by listing many of the Fairs:

SH Rising Fair
SH FF Fair
SH Double Fair (one rising, one falling)
FH Rising Fair
FH (almost an empty jump) --> Falling Fair
FH Double Fair (this one is tricky though lol)

I may be missing one or two since I just woke up but these are good til CJ elaborates (I mean it is HIS thread right?) And all of these can be done approaching or retreating. Each has a situational use based on your position relative to you opponent and the match-up.

 

[C.J.]

I mean, those are the super basic ones. For FF fair alone you have:
Ff then fair
Fair then ff
Ff late
Ff immediately
Ff delay fair
Etc etc

There's no chance of me really getting detailed about them since that would be like a fifteen million page essay and I'm wayyyyy too lazy for that. Besides, there's no realistic way to remember it all and apply it well from direct theory. The best option is to just play a ton and figure it out.

Each kind of fair you can think of has at least a few specific purposes in some match-up vs some specific move. But one of the biggest things to gain from the different fairs is to be able to recognize why you're getting PS'd and fixing it.

Also, for each kind of fair you can think of, multiply it by 4. Approaching, retreating, tipper, non-tipper.

 

[NH Cody]

are you sure fthrow fthrow fthrow dair isn't guaranteed? I've got this to work an awful lot...

on flaco

 

[clowsui]

why would you want to reverse fsmash on wario from gr when you can do it regular? LOL seriously

 

[Foodies]

Also, for each kind of fair you can think of, multiply it by 4. Approaching, retreating, tipper, non-tipper.

Wouldn't it be by 5 since there is also fairing in place?

are you sure fthrow fthrow fthrow dair isn't guaranteed? I've got this to work an awful lot...
on flaco

I think Falco can DI up so the dair doesn't tipper.

why would you want to reverse fsmash on wario from gr when you can do it regular? LOL seriously

CJ says:

Also, reverse fsmash sends at a "straighter" angle so it is harder to DI effectively.

Wouldn't it be better to do a normal fsmash because of the risk of tripping though?

 

[C.J.]

Quest- very sure. Holding straight up prevents it. If the Falco player isn't DIing at all or is DIing any other way, then it will connect though. Against Falco players that are not overly familiar with the MU then it will likely land.

Foodies, I guess technically that may be true but you should next to never want to fair in place. Unless you're stringing them together, you're probably fairing to control space and zone someone. Being stationary/fairing in place makes it way too easy to break your zoning and have your opponent get into a zone you don't want them in.

See: steel's thread on zones

 

[Shaya]

So yeah, I did some grab release testing.
You can buffer, you just can't buffer a Dash.
(I forgot about this, for some reason along the way I got caught up with 'nothing is bufferable')

If you buffer dash attack, you'll always tipper MK. Best way to buffer dash attack is to hold forward and C-stick downwards.

As you can't "buffer a dash" in the grab release animation and you can buffer a dash attack, there's a simple trick here that allows you to buffer a dash out of grab release with 100% efficiency.

That is

Hold A (or any attack button)
Hold forward,
C-Stick Downwards

This -should- be giving you a buffered dash out of grab release animations.

Did everyone just get half a match up point or more better at the MK match up?

 

[Nike.]

Ohhhh.

It all makes sense now.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Question, is there any reason you'd ever want to go for non-tipper spacing on some of your moves (F-air is most notable though), or are tippers just better in every situation?

 

[smashkng]

Nontipper has less knockback, which can sometimes be good because that means they combo easier, like Nair, Fair, landing Uair (it true combos on tipper into Usmash and Nair even on tipper until about 13%, but untippered it true combos for a bit longer) and Dtilt. It's also to notice that when you tipper most of Marth's moves become less frame safe on shield because it increases the shield lag more than the shield stun (FFed aerials like Fair and Nair become -8 on shield instead of the significantly better -4, Dtilt becomes -14 instead of -7, etc.), but because shields often go even outside the hurtbox of characters, I think you don't always tipper a shield when you space tipper on the opponent's hurtbox. For more tipper vs untipper frame data http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204825

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Dang CJ, with the God given smarts. Imma be lurking this thread for information from now on, lol.

 

[reslived]

so if youre going to FF an aerial, would it be better to tipper or non-tipper? tipper i thought has more shield push so you create more distance and can prevent punish, but non-tipper gives you less shield lag. what should I be going for?

 

[C.J.]

Depends on the MU, how you've been conditioning them, their OoS options, grab speed compared to range, how they're moving at that moment, and so forth. The best way to know what to do when is just by playing a lot.



On a computer now, so here's a quick example:

Non-tipper fair on shield is like, -3
Olimar's grab is frame 12 (so he can't grab your untippered fair).
Usmash OoS is frame 8- still can't punish they fair.
You get to keep him in a near-ideal range, you can jab both his (common) options, you aren't retreating so he can't start spamming pikmin, etc.

Take the same thing vs DDD- you can buffer spotdodge to barely avoid his grab (assuming you land perfectly of course) and then if he reads that you're in a world of trouble.
Now, if you tipper fair DDD's shield- he can no longer grab you because of the space. He might be able to ftilt you OoS (if you don't AC is perfectly-ish), but that situation is a LOT better than being CG'd.

 

[reslived]

dam... i wish i had the speed and knowledge to play like this. back to prax i guess.

 

[1PokeMastr]

why would you want to reverse fsmash on wario from gr when you can do it regular? LOL seriously

Reverse stutter step fsmash is a lot easier to tipper on Wario than trying to do it standing.
You have a 1% trip chance for a move that will net you an early kill.


I saw you play at Rain, you should really try reverse stutter stepping it.

Assuimg facing right..

Dash right + Fsmash input left.

 

[clowsui]

I was playing w someone else's controller at RAIN.

Also man @ using one tournament as sample size lmao, as far as I'm concerned RAIN was an outlier tournament for me in terms of execution. My game was all sorts of off on that day.

Watch when Wario releases from my hand -> Stutter forward + Fsmash. I am still stuttering. There is a chance to trip with my method. The only difference is the direction I face.

 

[Raziek]

So then why are you picking the worse direction?

 

[ScareMl]

Dash right + Fsmash input left.

is it a dash or stutter-step right and f-smash left? i'm trying to get the timing right.

 

[1PokeMastr]

is it a dash or stutter-step right and f-smash left? i'm trying to get the timing right.

A Stutter step is a dash cancelled within the first 5 frames of it starting.

And if you face to the right.

It's stutter right fsmash left.

It's really easy when you get the hang of it.

 

[C.J.]

Everyone should crouch more.
A lot more.
It makes your hurtbox smaller, you can still shield/jump out of it without any additional delay, shielding out of it raises your hurtbox so PSing is easier as well. It beats a lot of approaching options from the air since they'll be spaced to hit your face.


From the ledge, if you're being ledge trapped, jumping up with uair is amazinggg instead of fair/nair.

Fair/nair hit in front of you while a lot of characters *coughmarthcough* jump while ledge trapping you. Nair/fair will go under the other character while uair will bash those characters in the head
or feet
or something



I've been teaching a Wario player and immediate DJing is important for Wario's gameplay since it aids his mobility. I was curious about how else we haven't been using mobility and while playing one day, turned off all shield buttons. I was forced to use my mobility and jumps to avoid attacks and holy crap DJing.

DJing is amazing- when used well. DJing instead of FHing has Marth rise quicker than he would otherwise. This allows for better vertical mobility with a relatively low risk if you're smart about it. Similarly to crouching, it also displaces Marth's hurtboxes weirdly creating a more difficult position to hit Marth in. Arguably most importantly, it allows you to completely reset your horizontal commitment while still low to the ground if you realize that jumping forward or backward was unsafe and that the opposite direction was better. You're still close enough to the ground where you gain the "safe" height that FH would give you (alongside appropriate aerial usage) while having the advantage of completely altering your direction.

 

[Exdeath]

I've been teaching a Wario player and immediate DJing is important for Wario's gameplay since it aids his mobility. I was curious about how else we haven't been using mobility and while playing one day, turned off all shield buttons. I was forced to use my mobility and jumps to avoid attacks and holy crap DJing.

Everyone should crouch more.
A lot more.
It makes your hurtbox smaller, you can still shield/jump out of it without any additional delay, shielding out of it raises your hurtbox so PSing is easier as well. It beats a lot of approaching options from the air since they'll be spaced to hit your face.


From the ledge, if you're being ledge trapped, jumping up with uair is amazinggg instead of fair/nair.

Fair/nair hit in front of you while a lot of characters *coughmarthcough* jump while ledge trapping you. Nair/fair will go under the other character while uair will bash those characters in the head
or feet
or something

I've been teaching a Wario player and immediate DJing is important for Wario's gameplay since it aids his mobility. I was curious about how else we haven't been using mobility and while playing one day, turned off all shield buttons. I was forced to use my mobility and jumps to avoid attacks and holy crap DJing.


DJing is amazing- when used well. DJing instead of FHing has Marth rise quicker than he would otherwise. This allows for better vertical mobility with a relatively low risk if you're smart about it. Similarly to crouching, it also displaces Marth's hurtboxes weirdly creating a more difficult position to hit Marth in. Arguably most importantly, it allows you to completely reset your horizontal commitment while still low to the ground if you realize that jumping forward or backward was unsafe and that the opposite direction was better. You're still close enough to the ground where you gain the "safe" height that FH would give you (alongside appropriate aerial usage) while having the advantage of completely altering your direction.

I've been teaching a Wario player and immediate DJing is important for Wario's gameplay since it aids his mobility. I was curious about how else we haven't been using mobility and while playing one day, turned off all shield buttons. I was forced to use my mobility and jumps to avoid attacks and holy crap DJing.

I've been teaching a Wario player and immediate DJing is important for Wario's gameplay since it aids his mobility. I was curious about how else we haven't been using mobility and while playing one day, turned off all shield buttons. I was forced to use my mobility and jumps to avoid attacks and holy crap DJing.

 

[C.J.]

Lolz, fixed

 

[B.A.M.]

Lolz, fixed

The funniest thing about this whole thread is C.J. speaking about Marths grab game being good. And yet a ton of the brawl community including NEO and Kadaj think its bad compared to the casts. Everyone wants to forget how good it is in the context of the character. Im glad that C.J speaks about it. Iono how thats not clear to some Marth mains. I dont even main the character.

 

[Shaya]

Like, I'd love if Marth's throws did twice or thrice the damage. Sure.

But I get so much in terms of follow ups and pressure from throws though.
If you don't DI down from fthrow at nearly any percent you're ****ed.
Down DI on any other throw gets you ****ed.

Even if they down DI fthrow you gain a lot of option power if you're good at the match up (stuff like knowing whether they hit in front or behind for their get up attacks for easy PS/punishing) and being tight with your DI reads/distances as to walk to the next best spot to help you **** them.

 

[Lord Chair]

But then down DI fthrow is only bad if your character is bad. What I don't understand is why ya'll Marths have been saying uthrow is good for 2 years now and still no one implements it.

 

[Shaya]

Because we want forward throw to be a free aerial too much.

 

[1PokeMastr]

But then down DI fthrow is only bad if your character is bad. What I don't understand is why ya'll Marths have been saying uthrow is good for 2 years now and still no one implements it.

Mikeneko :3

 

[Lord Chair]

You = Silly American Marths.

 

[1PokeMastr]

You = Silly American Marths.

But I'm Canadian T^T

 

[Shaya]

You're all the same.

AMERICANANS isn't in the DICTIONARY >:

Your only possible escape is if you're from French Canada. Or are apart of the Canadian Royal Family.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I live 6 hours by bus away from French Land :<

 

[Polkjm]

I am a french Quebecian noob marth player and do not understand what is so special about an uthrow.