My Case for the Air-Dodge Z-air Neutral Approach (I like the name “Hookdodge”)

[Colonel Shotgun]

I'm a Falco main who in the last month has been playing A LOT of Young Link, in part due to my hatred of playing Peach but mostly because I think he's fun and I believe in his potential. I think I'm onto a different neutral approach than most would recommend and I'm curious to see if more veteran Young Link players have tried to use it consistently in tournament. Pay specific attention to #4-6 in the "How to do it" section.

How to do it:

1. Short-hop or full-hop, short-hopping will likely be used most often
2. Air-dodge, in a direction or not
3. Press Z
4. Make sure to keep the hookshot/chain straight for maximum distance/effectiveness
5. Generally try to to air-dodge out of short-hop as quickly as possible without wavedashing (similar to triangle jumping except you want to keep a farther distance)
6. Fastfalling does not help because you want the chain to look straight, just practice till perfect. It should look like you’re barely off the floor but the chain should be straight.

Why use it?:

• Very quick with long range
• GIves YL a fastfall short-hop move basically
• Can be done to both avoid and counterattack w/ almost no lag
• Because of it’s range, a useful tool while opponent is at low percentage to avoid the negative effects of crouch cancelling
• The changeup as to air-dodging forward, backwards, or in place is very fast
• Except for against Falco, it lets the YL dictate the pace
• Can be done out of a projectile (frames/timing vary)
• Much more range than any other aerial and comes out faster than a projectile
• Has set damage (5%) so it is as good on the 1st hit as it is on the 100th hit
• Makes the opponent second guess a full hop as it can also be done out of full hop
• Using it regularly is helpful for muscle memory as it's a quick followup for a missed wavedash
• The backwards version is a quick way to get out of a sticky situation
• Can be done immediatley out of shield
• Not the most optimal as a projectile-followup, but resets opponents from hitsun which is good for grab-followups
• Simply annoying af for the opponent

Hookdodging's biggest problem is landing lag, but these moves are good options to deal with an opponents’ followups:

• D-smash
• F-tilt
• Up-tilt
• Up-B
• Shield/wavedash out of shield
• Shield to grab
• Another hookdodge away from the opponent
• Quick pivot to hookdodge in the direction that the opponent just approached you from
• Quick pivot to boomerang in the direction that the opponent just approached you from

 

[Diabolical PIe]

Sorry to shoot down potential Young Link tech, but everyone knows about the hook shot, and there are several reasons why you don't see players use it frequently as an attack/zoning tool. The primary issue is landing lag. Scanning around, I couldn't find any exact numbers, but your landing lag after performing an aerial hookshot must be upwards to 40+ frames. Keep in mind, this is a game where a single baited Falco Dair can be whiff punished with a grab into death combo. That, in comparison, only has 9 frames of endlag AND Falco players have a shine to cover themselves if their opponents are just a single frame off, yet you still see mid-level players punishing this with relative ease. Considering Young Link's vulnerable combo weight, any Melee player with experience in the game will put you in a stock-threatening situation off of a direct punish when you land. EVEN if the opponent doesn't react in time to get a direct punish off your endlag, you are still placed in an EXTREMELY vulnerable position. You have lost momentum and given your opponent 40+ actionable frames during which you are inactionable to do whatever they please. If they advance into your space, you are forced to throw out a defensive option: 1.) Shield (and deal with Young Link's horrible out of shield game) 2.) Attack (reactable and punishable) 3.) Roll/Spotdodge (reactable/punishable) 4.) Retreat (losing stage position, stage to work with, and your primary strength as a mobile character). As you can see, just by moving forward and standing in front of you while you are in lag frames, your opponent places significant pressure on you to bait out and punish your narrowed down options, and this is even assuming that the opponent doesn't respond quickly enough to punish the attack outright.

All of this for what? What advantage does landing an aerial hookshot really give you? Stuttering up your opponent's movement, catching them offguard? Yes, it's surprising, but its benefits don't outweigh its weaknesses. It doesn't even land you any significant percent or frame advantage, and a savvy opponent can punish it even if it hits. During the time that you went for an aerial hookshot, you could have been pulling a bomb to expand your options, throwing a boomerang to control space while maintaining actionable frames, dash dancing and applying pressure to your opponent, moving to platforms set up for a camp game... the list of better options goes on infinitely because it's actually anything else Young Link could do in that time besides SD off the side, Up B in the middle of the stage, or charge an F Smash in the opposite direction of your opponent. All of your other options give you so much more control over your opponent. As a mid-tier, you have to learn to leave as few openings as possible, because we get messed up extra hard in the punish game, and our neutral games aren't nearly as strong. You really can't get away with going for something suboptimal like you may with some of the better characters, unless there's PURPOSE behind it (going for the down throw--> jab at low percents on midweights, rather than down throw --> dash dance, because you might surprise them into holding shield if they are simply dashing away after the down throw, for example).

The only situations where I find hookshot useful as an attack is in situations where there simply isn't any other choice. "My opponent read that I was going to air dodge onto the stage? Crap, gonna throw out the hookshot just in case it does something." "Oops, accidentally messed up a waveland and now my opponent is coming for the punish? Dear god please carry my hopes in this hookshot." That kind of thing. You can try using it as a gimmick by ledge cancelling your momentum and negating the endlag, which I find especially neat from the ledge, but overall there's usually something better you could be doing.

TL;DR, Hookshot is bad. It pokes people in the eye and they get mad and body sad kid link. Don't do that. It's rude.

 

[Colonel Shotgun]

Thanks for the advice, I assume you have more experience with the character than I do so I appreciate it. For the sake of argument and clarity, let me throw out a couple more things:

1) I know YL mains get annoyed by this, but I'm more interesting in making YL a dual main/strong secondary, so I won't have to deal with Fox's/Falco's followups as I'm more concerned with the Puff/Peach matchups (and maybe IC's, Samus, and Luigi.) And yes, these characters have followups too but not they're not quite as quick to respond and the move still needs good spacing like any move in melee.
2) My goal for this was really to optimize the hookshot. Perhaps what I'm stating has already been tried and failed as a technique but I'm interested in its potential. When I see YL's in tournament pull out the air-dodge hookshot, you're right it's generally a panic move. However, what I've noticed is that the move can be done much faster and with a lot less falling time. Unfortunately, I don't have to video-making capabilities to show it, but the move I'm suggesting (for most of the time) should look like YL is barely off the ground and that the hookshot is pixels above the stage. To me it feels like there is less landing lag when this happens, but that's likely not true and I have a theory why it feels this way. To the naked eye at normal game speed, my version of the move should appear like YL is landing at the same time as the hookshot is coming out. Because of this, the landing lag isn't cut, but because the falling time is cut, it's less laggy in the sense that the move covers some of the frames of the landing lag. I noticed that you mentioned "it pokes people in the eye," but the move should actually be poking at the feet (I'm not giving you **** I'm just trying to clarify things.) This technique is actually pretty hard to pull off consistently (the main trouble is not triangle jumping but getting the hookshot out in time) and because the hookshot is straight it covers a lot more ground than the viagra-less limp hookshot I often see.

If this just winds up being useless tech that's fine, I still feel like the character is fun to play and it's definitely not because of the hookshot. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[CAUP]

This is not a good option.

1) I'm pretty sure Peach could punish this even if it hit. At least put young link in a terrible position. Jigglypuff could probably punish off of hit also. Might even be able to rest.

2) Optimizing a move means using it at appropriate times when the risk vs reward validates it.

I'm guessing you are just playing against really bad players who can't handle this. A lower mid level player would destroy this tactic.

But! It is interesting though. I have messed around with it before. (You can actually air dodge diagonally downward instead after one frame airborne, then do the hook shot and you can a worse wavedash!) And I'm sure there are times when this is the best option. Probably punishing whiffed attacks when the opponent is at high percents and at the edge of the stage and you couldn't reach them otherwise. So it could be used sometimes.

 

[Colonel Shotgun]

Thanks for the input, to be honest this Young Link has mostly been at work in the lab so I just want to get as much Young Link-specific tech in as possible before I use it in tournament. The one thing I know is really helpful but I can't do is the boomerang into air-dodge hookshot dealy for recovery (I've seen Axe use it it's sick.) I actually thought of this tech by messing up the recovery delay tech.

 

[CAUP]

Young Link definitely has potential. He is a rough character though. Very high learning curve.

It's good that you are trying to theory craft and such though, that is great.

 

[Colonel Shotgun]

Just curious, seeing that you're a Peach main or at least have experience playing her, what do you think is the best strategy as a YL playing Peach.

Also, just saw this, skip to 1:19 in the video, I think the hookshot has more knockback than many realize. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsigE2Ae6qU&list=PLtnPNna6ctz7D4IazzUOmxO9Tb1G_b3HZ&index=3

 

[Diabolical PIe]

The boomerang recovery trick only works in the 1.0 and 1.01 versions of Melee. Axe carries his extra version around in tournaments, but in 1.02 this was patched out, along with a few other things (RIP Zelda and Bowser Flame Cancel). Most tournaments play 1.02 in the US, since it's the most common copy of the game.

I love Young Link, and it's exciting that you're trying to find new tech, but I see this all the time in people that want to play a mid tier or "push" a character. Searching for the holy grail of new obscure tech that will somehow make YL better, in my opinion, isn't what we should be doing to show the strengths of the character we love. Solid gameplay theory is really the way to go. Just focusing on becoming better players in general with the tools we have is really exciting, in my opinion, because the tools have never truly been optimized and charted out like they have been with top tiers!

I miss that optimization project we had going. We need to think less about "I can short hop double jump to land triple aerials on my opponent's shield like Axe does and cross them up and wow that'd be good!" and more along the lines of "I have these tools available to me-- let me apply this one and see how my opponent reacts." Simple options are still options. It doesn't matter how far the Fox meta advances, spotdodge shine will always be good.

Sorry, I'm not trying to sound mean or attack you or anything like that! I just really want Young Link to thrive as a character.

As for a the "best" strategy for Young Link against Peach... that's... really broad.

 

[Colonel Shotgun]

I agree, your attitude makes sense towards YL and characters in general. However, threads on smashboards that are vague tend to be too broad and go off topic easily. There's a ton more stuff I want to talk about YL but I don't want to have an overwheliming amount to read and discuss. And to be more specific, how would you edgeguard Peach with YL? Would you use walljumps, bomb drops, etc..

 

[Brash Candihoot]

With Link maybe since his Longshot is almost twice the range. Hookshot is punishable on hit pretty much anytime you use it with YL, it is highly to telegraphed, and not fast to start. It sets up nothing, it can't be used to ko or combo. The only time anyone should ever use it IMO is if you can edge cancel it. Melee is about taking a hit as far as possible, this is more of a Brawl strat.

Time would be better spent plucking a bomb or throwing boomerang.

If you want to talk Peach there are other threads that fit that discussion like the edgeuarding and matchup ones. That way others can easily find it in one place in the future. Some already have some great info.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

I miss that optimization project we had going.

Me too bro me too. I started work on a big treatise to sum up our thoughts on edgeguarding spacies (with embedded TAS example gfys and everything) and then time got away from me. I'll finish it soon and we can move on to a different thing and start it up again.

 

[Diabolical PIe]

Me too bro me too. I started work on a big treatise to sum up our thoughts on edgeguarding spacies (with embedded TAS example gfys and everything) and then time got away from me. I'll finish it soon and we can move on to a different thing and start it up again.

<3

 

[Brando550]

Like everyone has already said, it's just too long a recovery time unless you edge-cancel it.

BUT, something to note is that in Magicscrumpy's 600-hr YL combo video, he does use the hookshot ledge-cancel's hitstun to combo into other moves like YL's N-air. So if anything, Hookshot ledge-cancel could be considered a combo extender of sorts.

And to Chandy, it was nice of you to try and optimize space-guarding spacies, but from what I can gather I think Diabolical Pie wants to optimize more than just edgeguards against spacies (that's just a guess of mine).

I actually have a 40-min video of friendlies I recorded at a tournament last weekend against 2 diff marths, with 1 being on my state's PR currently, to see what optimal punishes YL has on Marth. I'm going to rewatch it and analyze what worked and what didn't. If anyone would like a copy of the file, I can host it on a site and put a link to it.

 

[ianisthewalrus]

I actually have a 40-min video of friendlies I recorded at a tournament last weekend against 2 diff marths, with 1 being on my state's PR currently, to see what optimal punishes YL has on Marth. I'm going to rewatch it and analyze what worked and what didn't. If anyone would like a copy of the file, I can host it on a site and put a link to it.

pls.

 

[Brando550]

pls.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ct418nhazchy3m/YL_Marth_Study.mp4?dl=0

If that link doesn't work, let me know and I'll try to find another way to get u the file.

*Edit : To get the full video you have to click the download button in the top right (it's 4.4G FYI). The preview video only shows the first 15 min of it.

 

[ianisthewalrus]

thanks. finally getting around to watching this. would be interested to hear your analysis.

my takeaways are that you really had alot of success with the spot dodges early on, but then they were too much and they started to harm you. i dunno if that was just you intentionally over using them, your opponent starting to read them, or both. interested on your thoughts there. also, your wave dancing opened up some missed grab opportunities, but i have been working on my grab game lately and that may be all i am seeing. not a big deal really, i feel against marth grabs are rather high risk/low reward as the end of your grab range is somewhat comparable to tipper range, and ylinks slow ass grab and long ass end lag are often a recipe for disaster. one thing i did see towards the end was something of interest i had never seen before. you threw a bomb off the edge, without leaving the stage! wowiee. i have a hard time edgeguarding marth near stage because dolphin slash jacks me up, but this might just be the answer unless it somehow parries the bomb away or he is still out of the explosion radius if it clips his sword. if that pops him up just a bit, another dsmash should seal the deal!

 

[Brando550]

thanks. finally getting around to watching this. would be interested to hear your analysis.

my takeaways are that you really had alot of success with the spot dodges early on, but then they were too much and they started to harm you. i dunno if that was just you intentionally over using them, your opponent starting to read them, or both. interested on your thoughts there. also, your wave dancing opened up some missed grab opportunities, but i have been working on my grab game lately and that may be all i am seeing. not a big deal really, i feel against marth grabs are rather high risk/low reward as the end of your grab range is somewhat comparable to tipper range, and ylinks slow *** grab and long *** end lag are often a recipe for disaster. one thing i did see towards the end was something of interest i had never seen before. you threw a bomb off the edge, without leaving the stage! wowiee. i have a hard time edgeguarding marth near stage because dolphin slash jacks me up, but this might just be the answer unless it somehow parries the bomb away or he is still out of the explosion radius if it clips his sword. if that pops him up just a bit, another dsmash should seal the deal!

The only practice I get are friendlies at tournaments and lvl 9 CPUs at home, so I tend to spot dodge a lot against the CPUs since they always try to grab me every single time I'm in shield. It's a bad habit, and one of the Marths I faced in this video told me afterwards that I spot dodged a lot and was becoming easily readable.

And I'm not sure what you mean by my "...wave dancing opened up some missed grab opportunities..." Do you mean I dodged some of the marths' attempts to grab me because of my dash dancing? Or I missed some opportunities of my own because of it?

It totally is a high-risk low-reward to try and get a grab. If you miss, it's a free tipper f-smash or a grab or pretty much anything that can kill you quickly at high percentages.

As for the bomb edge-guard, I discovered that if you stand at the very edge of any platform or the edge of a stage (you can position yourself by rolling backwards) and facing towards the center of the stage, you can throw a bomb down and it will go straight down without blowing up the ground you're standing on. Also, if you are at a Crouch Cancel %, just hold down after you throw so you can Crouch Cancel his dolphin slash and then d-smash him away.

And to put you at ease, I am 99% positive that Marth's dolphin slash does enough damage to always make the bomb explode when he hits it. No need to worry about the bomb being parried away.

I hope this helps you out with your game against Marths in some way. I definitely learned a lot from watching this myself, so hopefully you can get some good ideas from it as well.

I can give you more tips any time if you want any more. Feel free to send a PM or post here if you want to.

 

[ianisthewalrus]

And I'm not sure what you mean by my "...wave dancing opened up some missed grab opportunities..." Do you mean I dodged some of the marths' attempts to grab me because of my dash dancing? Or I missed some opportunities of my own because of it?

sorry i was not clear. i meant your wave dashing game created some openings for you to get grabs off of whiffs, but you just kept dashing. would love to discuss further. marth can often feel like my worst matchup.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Instead of using hook shot, you would be better off throwing a boomerang which has a much higher reward if it hits and is less vulnerable. Boomerang from up close does about 18% and combos into your aerials.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

There is always a better move in neutral for both hitbox coverage/priority and follow-up options. The only possible time hookshot is viable as an attack is if you use the airdodge to avoid an attack (which is a last resort tactic to escape an edgeguard/combo). Even then, sometimes you'd have a better advantage if you landed normally, and virtually everything else has better reward.

If you're looking to be serious about Young Link, there is a methodical approach to most match-ups. Make space to pull a bomb -> hit them with bomb -> hit them with aerial -> (hit them with aerial / hit them with dsmash / pull bomb). Bomb can be replaced by close range boomerang. You also need to learn how to fight when you cannot pull a bomb or throw boomerang (primarily nair, bair and dsmash). From there its all swag, good luck.