Multishining and Westsballz Shining differences?

[Berble]

As far as I know Westballz Shining is shine - jump (off the ground) - shine - DJ - air dodge down
Is this better than multishining in any way or just preference? Also any help on getting the Westballz Shining timing down would be appreciated. Most times I try it I end up air dodging when I'm too high off the ground to reach the ground or I just double shine. Thanks for any advice

 

[KP17]

practice shine OOS and aerial shine waveland

for problems getting grounded shine OOS, ive found the best practice method is simply jumping and trying to time the shine on the first airborne frame (to get grounded shine)

then work on the timing difference with jumping in the air first and wavelanding down really quickly

EDIT: its a mixup. neither one is particularly superior theory wise. in practice it may be easier to be consistent with one over the other. grounded doubleshine leaves you with different options at the end (i mix up short hop , WD down and away after the second shine usually)

either way you wanna definitely mix up grabs and shine grabs, you wanna get a reward for hitting shields

 

[EMP_Zurg]

if you do westballz pressure it gives a visual cue of a gap that top players will take advantage of. saw wes do it on mangos shield and he shield grabbed it without hesitation.

 

[WestBallz]

Yeah man dont do westballz double shine its sooooo bad. Dunno why he uses it. He got 2nd at TNE first at SCR and won several tourneys in a row. Dunno why people arent shield grabbing him just like mango is. Oh well if he ever plays me im just gonna shield grab him all day cuz im just like mango.

 

[EMP_Zurg]

pp doesnt do westballz pressure and he won apex 2014

 

[KP17]

this discussion isnt going anywhere. please discuss pros and cons of westballz pressure. pp is better than westballz and he won apex, and he doesnt do this particular technique....doesnt mean it doesn't have any uses. Westballz, do you wanna talk about your preferred actions after hitting a shield?

 

[EMP_Zurg]

it was just because he implied that he is doing well because his signature pressure is good that i said that. it's not clearly the reason, because others do better without it so his success can't be attributed to using it. i would personally wavedash out of shield if anyone doubleshined my shield like that so i dont think it actually lends that much to the pressure; would probably be better off mixing in lasers and shine grabs.

 

[WestBallz]

pp doesnt do westballz pressure and he won apex 2014

probably cuz he cant do it. LOOOL

 

[EMP_Zurg]

btw wes no disrespect. i think you win cause you have such a crazy punish and space control game, not cause you go ham on peoples shields. i really enjoy watching you play when youre down a stock and space more rather than relying on frame advantage/mixups. play like that more often and i think you'd do even better

 

[REC_NEPS]

Westballz, on a scale of 1-10, how totally mulched are your hands after a day of melee at a tournament? Just talking about this stuff makes my hands itch, I can't imagine how you'd do it all day.

 

[Bones0]

Benefits/options that come with multishining:
- Faster
- Extend the string indefinitely (so long as the opponent doesn't slide away)
- Easier to follow up when shines hit because you can FH immediately
- If they CC the first shine, the second will hit too (usually knocks them over)
- Shinegrab at any point
- JC your shine into a SH aerial at any point
- Waveshine at any point
- Usmash at any point
- You don't risk getting knocked out of your DJ
- No trigger timings necessary

Benefits/options that come with shine-shine-WL:
- It's harder for the opponent to tell when you're DJing to WL on the platform vs. continuing pressure
- Has more leniency in the timing because you don't have to be frame perfect


To answer the OP: I think when most people try this, they wait way too long in their second shine and airdodge way too late. To even compete with the speed of a grounded doubleshine, you have to abuse the fact that you are JCing the second shine with a DJ. DJs, unlike first jumps, do not have jumpsquat. The first frame after DJing you are able to airdodge so make sure you airdodge asap after DJing.

 

[jkenney1]

Depends. If you're comparing a grounded double shine to a westballz doubleshine, then the advantages are as Bones said above.

But honesty, it shouldn't matter which flavor of doubleshine you throw out. I presume we're talking about a shield pressure situation. You should be mixing it up between shinegrab, double shine, and shine->retreating aerial.

I think the westballz shine is more easily punished.

Just do whatever you prefer. As long as you continue to mix up your pressure, it shouldn't matter whether you grounded doubleshine or westballz shine.

 

[Oskurito]

Is hard to airdodge down quickly out of the 2nd shine (westballz double shines right?) so no, is not that easy and you'll probably get punished if you don't do it fast enough, not that is useless, I think is just a mixup that might come in handy for pressure.

But then again, pressure not only involves shining the crap out of your opponent's shield, but well spaced attacks and your overall laser game also puts pressure on your opponent. The whole idea is to force the enemy to remain in a deffensive position, always shielding, rolling, spot dodging, jumping away and whatnot, so that you can overwhelm them (provided you have enough techskill to do so) offensively with your attacks and get a combo or edgeguard setup. At the end of the day is up to you to react quickly enough and punish.

I personally don't like westballz falco style, he's too reckless and often times is very predictable and gets punished very hard. In my opinion, is not worth trying to use his technique unless you're planning to work really hard on it and perfect it.

I think most novice falcos should focus on effective and simple things like spacing your attacks, you can do a retreating nair after hitting a shield with your shine and if your spacing is good enough they can't grab you, or you can just dash dance next to them shielding and poke their shield cause it gets too small.

Learning to read your opponent's actions is significantly more valuable than learning tech skill.

 

[TheRealAlbert]

Wesballz shining allows for better platform comboing, especially on YI. If your 2nd shine from a Wesballz shine hits, you can use your double jump to more easily combo onto platforms. Another option is still wave landing down, which makes comboing easier than a regular double shine because hitting the first shine from a double shine will mess up your double shine timing. The lag from hitting someone will make the 2nd shine not come out, and instead, you will jump. When you jump, your comboing options are very limited. For pure shield pressure, wesballz shining is not good. However, if you think that the either shine will hit the opponent, wesballz shining is much more beneficial.

 

[EMP_Zurg]

it's is not possible to hit confirm the second shine in the sense that you recognize that you hit it and doublejump to a platform out of it because of that. also it's just plain wrong that it's easier to combo from an aerial shine where you only have one jump vs a grounded shine where you have two. if you got it under a top platform wtf would you do that's better than grounded waveshine -> jump -> shine -> dj waveland -> shine etc.

 

[tauKhan]

because hitting the first shine from a double shine will mess up your double shine timing. The lag from hitting someone will make the 2nd shine not come out, and instead, you will jump.

What is this? Shield hitlag is exactly as long as hitlag; it doesn't matter whether you hit shield or a character.

 

[TheRealAlbert]

it's is not possible to hit confirm the second shine in the sense that you recognize that you hit it and doublejump to a platform out of it because of that. also it's just plain wrong that it's easier to combo from an aerial shine where you only have one jump vs a grounded shine where you have two. if you got it under a top platform wtf would you do that's better than grounded waveshine -> jump -> shine -> dj waveland -> shine etc.

If you jump out of a hit from a second shine, if they dont DI, then its a free combo on the platform above you, If they do, you wavedash across that platform in whatever direction the DI and then continue your combo from there. When you have 2 jumps, jumping from the ground is a slight a bit amount slower than the double jump, making comboing a lot harder in the timing/your wavelanding skills.

 

[EMP_Zurg]

i dont think that youve ever played falco. jumping from the ground is only like 5 frames extra, and being in the correct position to jump from and having a second jump to cancel a midair shine is infinitely more useful than those 5 frames.

 

[TheRealAlbert]

What is this? Shield hitlag is exactly as long as hitlag; it doesn't matter whether you hit shield or a character.

I've won tournies with Falco...but that 5 frames extra you talk about makes a difference. A lot. That 5 frames is whether or not you get another shine in or not. And being on the ground and having "control" to jump to the next place is untrue. If yo uare in the center of the map, you have to run towards the platform for a split second and wave dash on. Or, if you are farther away, yo uahve to short hop and then use second jump on to the next platform. If you are close, well it really doesn't matter. THey didnt DI, free combo either way.

 

[EMP_Zurg]

exactly, you CANT RUN OR SHORT HOP IF YOURE DOUBLE JUMPING OUT OF THE SECOND SHINE. so you don't have any horizontal mobility and thus can't follow up on it if they DI at all.

 

[TheRealAlbert]

exactly, you CANT RUN OR SHORT HOP IF YOURE DOUBLE JUMPING OUT OF THE SECOND SHINE. so you don't have any horizontal mobility and thus can't follow up on it if they DI at all.

You jjump up to the platform and waveland wherever you want to go. im going to stop posting because I know I'm not going ro get through to you.

 

[tauKhan]

I've won tournies with Falco...but that 5 frames extra you talk about makes a difference. A lot. That 5 frames is whether or not you get another shine in or not. And being on the ground and having "control" to jump to the next place is untrue. If yo uare in the center of the map, you have to run towards the platform for a split second and wave dash on. Or, if you are farther away, yo uahve to short hop and then use second jump on to the next platform. If you are close, well it really doesn't matter. THey didnt DI, free combo either way.

What 5 frames exactly are you talking about? If you hit shield with unstaled shine, you'll undergo 5 frames of hitlag and the earliest jc is on frame 8. If you hit an hurtbox with unstaled shine, you'll undergo 5 frames of hitlag and the earliest possible jc is on frame 8. Get it? And besides, if you are talking about shine -> shine dj, the first shine is no different in execution anyway. And also there is no such thing as grounded shine out of jump ( except on slopes and platforms, and this results in invisible shine with no hitbox) If you west shine, you should always do the second shine as low on the ground as possible, unless you plan to wl onto plat.

 

[TheRealAlbert]

What 5 frames exactly are you talking about? If you hit shield with unstaled shine, you'll undergo 5 frames of hitlag and the earliest jc is on frame 8. If you hit an hurtbox with unstaled shine, you'll undergo 5 frames of hitlag and the earliest possible jc is on frame 8. Get it? And besides, if you are talking about shine -> shine dj, the first shine is no different in execution anyway. And also there is no such thing as grounded shine out of jump ( except on slopes and platforms, and this results in invisible shine with no hitbox) If you west shine, you should always do the second shine as low on the ground as possible, unless you plan to wl onto plat.

5 frames wasn't an exact number. It was just a random number emp_zurg made up. However, there is some amount of frames saved by
1. already being higher up from the first jump and
2. the jump lag from the first jump

 

[tauKhan]

Please read my responses again, especially the first one. And 5 frames is exactly the amount of hitlag unstaled shine does on hit for falco (defender gets 7 if it connects, 5 on shield) On ordinary double shine you don't lose any frames on jumping, because you are doing the shine asap after the jump. (As you should if you plan to west shine wl down).

 

[TheRealAlbert]

Please read my responses again, especially the first one. And 5 frames is exactly the amount of hitlag unstaled shine does on hit for falco (defender gets 7 if it connects, 5 on shield) On ordinary double shine you don't lose any frames on jumping, because you are doing the shine asap after the jump. (As you should if you plan to west shine wl down).

I'll just break down what I'm saying again and maybe I don't have to go through all this reasoning. If you Wesballz shine, it allows your to waveland on w/e platform is above you. A waveland covers most if not all of a whole platform, allowing for fast horizontal movement so that you can follow up on combos. If you reach the end of a platform, simply fast fall down and waveland again or whatever(dair,bair,fair,shine). However if you do a grounded double shine, your choices of movement are double jumping up to the top platorm to do the waveland thing (slower), single jump onto the lower platform above you (also slower because you can't wave land on right away like you could if you already airborn from a first jump. Harder as well). Now, if you don't connect on a shine, grounded shinining is better for pressure, but really, in most cases, not that much better.

 

[tauKhan]

Even 1 frame delayed shine lets buffered rolls out, not delayed hits them. And there is still no grounded double shine. You do double shine and wait for it to land.

 

[TheRealAlbert]

Even 1 frame delayed shine lets buffered rolls out, not delayed hits them. And there is still no grounded double shine. You do double shine and wait for it to land.

In theory, sure. Realistically, unless you are a top player, no. Most people would just stay in shield. And by ground double shine, i simply mean not wesballz shining

 

[BTmoney]

As far as I know Westballz Shining is shine - jump (off the ground) - shine - DJ - air dodge down
Is this better than multishining in any way or just preference? Also any help on getting the Westballz Shining timing down would be appreciated. Most times I try it I end up air dodging when I'm too high off the ground to reach the ground or I just double shine. Thanks for any advice

multishining is better because as long as you're doing them correctly there is less time in-between them. if you do the westballz you are in some lag after your 2nd shine while you air dodge into the ground. It's a lot easier to do the westballz consistently than it is to do perfect multishines (3+) consistently, pretty good thing to implement for falco, fox not so much.

In theory, sure. Realistically, unless you are a top player, no. Most people would just stay in shield. And by ground double shine, i simply mean not wesballz shining

rolling out of shield pressure is easy, buffer a roll with c-stick. if you just input it while you're in shield stun I believe buffered roll gets you out of everything except fresh double shine from falco or fox. I've studied the frame data on shield pressure a lot (pretty much more than most people who play this game). I just took what I learned and applied it to practical situations in game play.

for example, I am a fox player. I used to get cheesed by peach's fair->FC->dsmash. If you execute it perfectly than there is only 1 frame you are actionable to try to avoid the frame trap. No character can do anything OOS in 1 frame. So I realized that as Fox I can just buffer a jump (Fox takes 3 frames to jump) after the fair hits my shield and jump out before the dsmash or a mixup comes out. the peach player only has to be 2-3 frames sloppy (a frame is 1/60th of a second so people please realize you hardly ever do/no one does anything frame perfectly if it's not a repetitive motion) on their execution or not do it at the lowest possible height for the frame trap not to work. so knowing your frame **** is actually practical if you know what to do with the information. you can see mango do this vs armada.

 

[TheRealAlbert]

Just out of experience, most people stay in shield out of fear.

 

[Nicco]

Use both man. Go for multishines. If/when you mess up and jump into a shine, dj airdodge down into more shines!

I honestly think this is why wb does this, but I have no idea.

And you guys saying you think wb is stupid for going for these difficult techniques, are envious scrubs, who don't appreciate the beauty of mastering tech skill.

 

[Splice]

@OP: learn to do both, it's not about one or the other, optimally. It's about the mixups imo
I can only really get a 2x multishine shield myself, but I mix it up with Wesballz Shine, Shine->Retreating Aerial and Shine -> Jump -> Shine -> DJ -> instant-Dair, and it's still hugely effective even though I'd say I'm only moderately competent of each technique.
Because I'm mixing up there is a lot of fear and confusion in my opponent and it's very hard for them to know exactly what to do and when to do it.

 

[yohobojz]

Zurg was talking about Falco's jumpsquat I'm pretty sure, not sure what you're talking about the real albert

 

[Bones0]

I'll just break down what I'm saying again and maybe I don't have to go through all this reasoning. If you Wesballz shine, it allows your to waveland on w/e platform is above you. A waveland covers most if not all of a whole platform, allowing for fast horizontal movement so that you can follow up on combos. If you reach the end of a platform, simply fast fall down and waveland again or whatever(dair,bair,fair,shine). However if you do a grounded double shine, your choices of movement are double jumping up to the top platorm to do the waveland thing (slower), single jump onto the lower platform above you (also slower because you can't wave land on right away like you could if you already airborn from a first jump. Harder as well). Now, if you don't connect on a shine, grounded shinining is better for pressure, but really, in most cases, not that much better.

If you shine-aerial shine, and then WL on the platform, you aren't doing Westballz pressure... The whole argument is about grounded doubleshine vs. a doubleshine where you airdodge in place. If you are WLing onto the plat, that is very useful, but it's not some option out of Westballz pressure because you can't hit confirm shine fast enough. Ironically enough, you CAN hit confirm when doing grounded multishines because if you do an extra one, that extra iteration gives you enough time to hit confirm the previous shine, but you still have plenty of time to follow up because you are able to WD directly out of the shine.