[MU] Sheik

[Sabaku No Gaara]

Only character I have a really hard time playing against is Sheik. Would appreciate any help on this MU.

 

[Drunken_Master]

Remember Sheik is very light, and if you're having a hard time landing kill moves you can usually just nair her off stage and shoot her with your bow.

I don't seem to have much trouble with Sheiks because most of them I've played roll a lot, so I may not have the most useful advice.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Projectiles, Jabs, and aerials are really important for this matchup. Don't get smash-happy with Sheik because she is really fast and can punish your smashes easily. Use tilts against her and don't use smashes unless you know that they will connect. Sheik's side-b is extremely laggy, so if you see her use it, you should immediately run toward her and punish her for it.

 

[Sabaku No Gaara]

Thanks for the advice. There should be a forum containing all of Link's MU information, would be really helpful.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Thanks for the advice. There should be a forum containing all of Link's MU information, would be really helpful.

All MU threads here or MU threads in other character boards are added here: http://smashboards.com/threads/link-matchup-index.374493/
If you find any in the other character boards, be sure to put them there.

 

[TropicalTaco]

Actual Sheiks won't use side-B on your for anything but edge guarding, and even then, probably not that often.

Do be wary of her getting you in the air, though. Sheik's juggling capabilities are much better in this game, and with air-dodging being as bad as it is, it can be tricky getting back on the ground and regaining your footing against her. If Sheik does get you in the air, I recommend jumping away and pulling a bomb, or jumping away and fast-falling down.

This matchup isn't as rough for Link as in previous games, but you'll still need to play defensively and be attentive to Sheik's movements. Empty jumps to jabs can throw her (and a lot of other characters, actually) off guard, as she'll often wait for you to do an air attack and then fair, nair, etc, out of shield.

Also, I haven't tested it, but I'm guessing you can block her standing needles while closing distance by slowly walking forward with the Hylian shield. Even if that doesn't work, you can negate thrown needles on reaction by crouching a lot of times. Just something to consider.

 

[Sabaku No Gaara]

Actual Sheiks won't use side-B on your for anything but edge guarding, and even then, probably not that often.

Do be wary of her getting you in the air, though. Sheik's juggling capabilities are much better in this game, and with air-dodging being as bad as it is, it can be tricky getting back on the ground and regaining your footing against her. If Sheik does get you in the air, I recommend jumping away and pulling a bomb, or jumping away and fast-falling down.

This matchup isn't as rough for Link as in previous games, but you'll still need to play defensively and be attentive to Sheik's movements. Empty jumps to jabs can throw her (and a lot of other characters, actually) off guard, as she'll often wait for you to do an air attack and then fair, nair, etc, out of shield.

Also, I haven't tested it, but I'm guessing you can block her standing needles while closing distance by slowly walking forward with the Hylian shield. Even if that doesn't work, you can negate thrown needles on reaction by crouching a lot of times. Just something to consider.

True. Sheiks I've played wait to use sideB once I'm offstage to get the kill. What do you mean by empty jumps to jab?

 

[TropicalTaco]

True. Sheiks I've played wait to use sideB once I'm offstage to get the kill. What do you mean by empty jumps to jab?

As in, short hop at them like you're about to do an air attack, except don't. You land and jab instead.

It's a good way to mix up the timing of your attacks, and an effective tactic as any character. It's particularly useful as Link, though, as it doesn't necessarily have to be a jab. It could be a nair, bair, downward bomb throw, zair, downsmash, etc, etc.

Edit: Tomahawking is the term for it.

 

[Lawz.]

Wanted to revive this discussion because in my personal opinion, this matchup is going to be one of, if not THE hardest matchup you guys will normally face. Keep in mind this is a discussion of two EQUALLY SKILLED players, so the Link in this scenario has just as much skill/knowledge of the game as the Sheik would.

Sheik vs. Link: Easily a disadvantage for Link, at the very least 6/4 in Sheik's favor, probably worse.

I'll edit this post either later tonight or tomorrow and give a full write-up on the matchup (her true combos on Link, edge-guarding situations that Sheiks will commonly go for, common examples of situations in the neutral game).

Also, feel free to post anything you may have in terms of experience and I'll make sure you guys have the correct information and general mindset of what is expected.

 

[Skylit]

Wanted to revive this discussion because in my personal opinion, this matchup is going to be one of, if not THE hardest matchup you guys will normally face. Keep in mind this is a discussion of two EQUALLY SKILLED players, so the Link in this scenario has just as much skill/knowledge of the game as the Sheik would.

Sheik vs. Link: Easily a disadvantage for Link, at the very least 6/4 in Sheik's favor, probably worse.

I'll edit this post either later tonight or tomorrow and give a full write-up on the matchup (her true combos on Link, edge-guarding situations that Sheiks will commonly go for, common examples of situations in the neutral game).

Also, feel free to post anything you may have in terms of experience and I'll make sure you guys have the correct information and general mindset of what is expected.

Looking forward to your post. I totally agree. Based on my experience, Sheik is the hardest MU for Link, right in front of Captain Falcon. I celebrate when I manage to get a single stock off of Sheik. Speed, combo potential, and ability to put constant pressure instills such a fear in me when I play against her.

Looking at my replays, I find myself doing standing Nairs, retreating Fairs, z-dropping bombs for spacing, and rolling way more than I usually do; this is all out of fear. This seems to have worked best for me, but best wasn't even close to being enough. One thing that has consistently worked for me however, was throwing the boomerang at the ledge each time I'm sent off stage. This was my fix from the fear of getting killed by bouncing fish, or getting baited from my air dodge and Faired to death.

I think I may have Sheikahphobia.

 

[FSK]

I guess I can try and throw in some words, I've played quite a few good sheiks (Not FG). Hopefully there won't be any misinformation, but if you disagree with something then let me know.

If you are up against a good sheik in tournament you better hope your secondary is warmed up.

If you decide for some reason to stay Link you are going to need 150% of your full focus. A lot of sheiks like to shield because they want to initiate their bread and butter combos through shieldgrabs. You need to space your aerials such that you are never susceptible to getting shield grabbed. Additionally if you ever hit sheik's shield with your jab you need to either get the hell out of there or grab. Never try and finish the jab combo on shield. You need to keep sheik out of grab,tilt and jab range. You have a sword, you have the better reach and you need to capitalize on that. 'Combo DI' is very important in this matchup, head over to the sheik boards and look at some of the info there. They have lists on which percents and so on they can true combo bouncing fish from forward throw. They have other lists as well and you need to be aware of that stuff. In general DI'ing away and spamming nair or jump often works to get out of fair combos. Go into training mode experiment a bit with sheik to find out at which times repeated fairs do not true combo. Don't use zair unless its guaranteed to hit, its basically asking to get grabbed. Be really careful with the boomerang, sheik can basically powershield it to bouncing fish at mid-range and its guaranteed. At close range sheik can dash grab you after the powershield. Be very careful with bomb-pulls, if you do it at a bad time sheik can bouncing fish you or run up and fair or RAR bair you. Do not underestimate the speed of sheik. Respect sheiks KO potential, its a myth that sheik has a hard time KO'ing. Sheik is also really good at gimping Link always have a bomb in hand while recovering and use the boomerang to stop gimping attempts. Some sheiks also like to throw out the uair chaingrab thing, if you DI behind sheik you should get out of it pretty easily.

Remember you want to force the opposing player to play your game at your pace. You want to play inside you comfortable zones because that is where you have the highest chance of winning. The matchup becomes a lot easier if the sheik player respects you too much. Since there aren't too many Links out there a sheik player hopefully has zero MU experience against Link, use this to you advantage to scare the sheik into respecting you. The moment the sheik player realizes that he/she can rush you down and there is not too much you can do about it you will be facing an extreme uphill battle.

This matchup is just bad news in general.

 

[DanesoulX]

I guess I can try and throw in some words, I've played quite a few good sheiks (Not FG). Hopefully there won't be any misinformation, but if you disagree with something then let me know.

If you are up against a good sheik in tournament you better hope your secondary is warmed up.

If you decide for some reason to stay Link you are going to need 150% of your full focus. A lot of sheiks like to shield because they want to initiate their bread and butter combos through shieldgrabs. You need to space your aerials such that you are never susceptible to getting shield grabbed. Additionally if you ever hit sheik's shield with your jab you need to either get the hell out of there or grab. Never try and finish the jab combo on shield. You need to keep sheik out of grab,tilt and jab range. You have a sword, you have the better reach and you need to capitalize on that. 'Combo DI' is very important in this matchup, head over to the sheik boards and look at some of the info there. They have lists on which percents and so on they can true combo bouncing fish from forward throw. They have other lists as well and you need to be aware of that stuff. In general DI'ing away and spamming nair or jump often works to get out of fair combos. Go into training mode experiment a bit with sheik to find out at which times repeated fairs do not true combo. Don't use zair unless its guaranteed to hit, its basically asking to get grabbed. Be really careful with the boomerang, sheik can basically powershield it to bouncing fish at mid-range and its guaranteed. At close range sheik can dash grab you after the powershield. Be very careful with bomb-pulls, if you do it at a bad time sheik can bouncing fish you or run up and fair or RAR bair you. Do not underestimate the speed of sheik. Respect sheiks KO potential, its a myth that sheik has a hard time KO'ing. Sheik is also really good at gimping Link always have a bomb in hand while recovering and use the boomerang to stop gimping attempts. Some sheiks also like to throw out the uair chaingrab thing, if you DI behind sheik you should get out of it pretty easily.

Remember you want to force the opposing player to play your game at your pace. You want to play inside you comfortable zones because that is where you have the highest chance of winning. The matchup becomes a lot easier if the sheik player respects you too much. Since there aren't too many Links out there a sheik player hopefully has zero MU experience against Link, use this to you advantage to scare the sheik into respecting you. The moment the sheik player realizes that he/she can rush you down and there is not too much you can do about it you will be facing an extreme uphill battle.

This matchup is just bad news in general.

I have to agree with you on this one bro.

 

[Lawz.]

If you decide for some reason to stay Link you are going to need 150% of your full focus. A lot of sheiks like to shield because they want to initiate their bread and butter combos through shieldgrabs.

Sheik has one of the best dash > shield approaches in the game simply because her dash is very quick. Keep in mind also that Sheik has incredible walk speed allowing her to safely approach anyone in quick fashion along with the fact that she doesn't have to commit to anything while walking.

However, while her BnBs do usually come from her grabs, she has waaaayyyyyyy more true combos and strings than most people know. I'm going to sort of break this down because there's a lot of stuff you guys should be aware of.

Sheik on offense: What to expect, and how to deal with.

I'm going to start with Sheik's fthrow because that's a very common combo starter and most people are familiar with this. Her fthrow is probably one of the most feared grabs in the game alongside Diddy's dthrow. Why? Because once Sheik initiates that fthrow, her opponent (in this case Link) is now sent into a 50/50 situation.

You basically have two options when it comes to DIing fthrow:
-DI away from Sheik: This option is really not what should be done unless you're mixing it up or at higher percents to avoid fair strings. At low percents this is especially not recommended because this allows Sheik to choose between following up with fair strings to carry you across the stage, or she can bouncing fish (If you DI away, Sheik can combo fthrow > bouncing fish on Link to at least 50% as a true combo. This combo alone does 19% damage). So generally at low percents I don't recommend DIing away from Sheik because this really gives her the most options to land maximum damage AND give her stage advantage.

-DI up and towards Sheik (basically holding the control stick diagonally above her head). I would say this is your better option as this makes it harder for Sheik to land the bouncing fish follow up (she can still land it I believe, but it won't combo as easily at the higher percents), it also forces her to, instead, go for a fair, nair, or uair follow up which will deal less damage than bouncing fish but also gives you a bit more of a chance to not get completely wrecked by fair strings. Unfortunately for Link, if you're grabbed at very low percents, you're going to get hit no matter what you do should you get grabbed, but I wanted to sort of lay out the options you can get.

The reason I am only listing these two options (obviously there are other directions to DI) is due to the fact that Sheik's bouncing fish will cover most, if not all, other directions of DI.


Next up is her dthrow:

Dthrow is another great option that Sheik can use to get guaranteed follow ups. Her most common follow up after dthrow is uair. What makes this such a great option? Well, this gives Sheik pretty much free damage as well as great stage positioning. Most characters in this game have terrible options when being above someone, making it very difficult for them to land safely and not take damage or risk being sent offstage.

If you are grabbed by Sheik and they opt to go for a dthrow rather than fthrow, you can choose to DI on either side, forcing the Sheik to read/react to the DI with uair rather than doing nothing and being sent straight up for the free follow up.

While dthrow usually doesn't give Sheik nearly as many options as fthrow does, as I mentioned before this does give her the stage advantage. Link has terrible options when it comes to landing safely, especially since landing on the ground always has 2 frames of recovery (meaning there are 2 frames where you can't do anything, not even shield because you are in the landing animation). Sheik will be well aware of Link's nair and dair (don't dair, the risk is not worth the reward) when he is landing and will most likely try to bait those out. It is best that Link have a bomb in his hand in most situations, primarily in a situation where he is sent above Sheik as this can give you some form of a landing option whether it be throwing it down at Sheik or hoping the blast interrupts her momentum.

The BIGGEST issue with dthrow is not going to be at low percents (it's obviously annoying to get hit by the uair), but at higher percents where Sheik will be going for the kill. While her dthrow will no longer true combo into uair (or any other move), she is still able to follow up the dthrow with uair to land the kill, although again, it isn't a true combo so Link will be able to try to escape whether it's double jump, airdodge, etc. The issue is that her dthrow at high percents now sends Link into a 50/50 situation where if he guesses wrong, he can potentially lose his stock. Basically if Link gets thrown and does nothing, he gets hit by uair and most likely dies due to being at kill percents. If Link airdodges, Sheik's uair will whiff and you'll have escaped (hopefully for you) the kill setup. BUT, what Sheik can do to stay a step ahead is, instead of going for the uair follow up, Sheik uses vanish (her upb, that kills). Vanish will not only cover the airdodge (due to the fact that her startup lasts long enough to wait for the dodge to end) but it will now kill because it has better kill potential than uair does. This situation really comes down to a guessing game on both parts, so Link's best bet is really to DI the dthrow to make Sheik guess where you're being sent as well as just being situationally aware of the options at hand. Because her dthrow no longer combos, Link has the ability to react with double jump, an aerial or anything else you can think of. Again this comes down to reading your opponent and guessing correctly.

Her fair is amazing. Like, I honestly cannot even stress how amazing this move really is. It's safe on block when spaced properly, it is a very good follow up from her grabs, chains into itself at lower percents when FFd properly allowing her to carry people across the stage, at mid percent (let's say 30-50% as an example) she can do fair > bouncing fish as a true combo, and this move is great for gimping.

Sheik's Nair is another great move to be aware of. It lasts long (like Link's), has good priority, is a great OoS option for her, is a pretty good gimping tool with soft nair, and can combo into bouncing fish just like her fair.

If Link is in a range where Sheik can reach you with fair/nair, you are in a predicament.

Her projectiles (needles) are very good in this game. From farther away they deal about 6-7%, up close they do about 11%. A good Sheik will know how to use needles to their advantage. They come out quick, they beat a lot of moves, and at higher percents can pop opponents into the air for a possible bouncing fish follow up. These bad boys are notorious for eating double jumps (so don't go hopping around like an idiot, especially offstage).

One thing to note is that if Link stands perfectly still, his shield can negate the needles. But, of course, you probably don't want to be in a neutral standing position for very long. Also, yes Link's bomb can eat needles, but if enough of them land they indeed blow up the bomb. Just so everyone is aware.

You need to space your aerials such that you are never susceptible to getting shield grabbed. Additionally if you ever hit sheik's shield with your jab you need to either get the hell out of there or grab. Never try and finish the jab combo on shield. You need to keep sheik out of grab,tilt and jab range. You have a sword, you have the better reach and you need to capitalize on that.

Yes, if Link wants to win this matchup, your best is to keep Sheik at sword tipper range or farther. One poorly thrown boomerang or grounded arrow can give Sheik an opportunity to get in and deal some serious damage. Be aware that if a Sheik catches on to your projectile patterns, they can indeed use bouncing fish to hit the startup of Link's projectiles (such as a bomb pull, arrow shot, or boomerang).

Link should be constantly zoning Sheik so as she stays at mid range or farther. I wouldn't recommend trying to grab Sheik that often if you find yourself in a close quarters situation as the risk significantly outweighs the reward. I mean, as a mixup it can definitely work in that kind of a situation but use that sparingly, obviously.

Link's first or second jab on block should be fine as long as it's the tip, but if you go for that third jab, you'll mostly likely be punished by grab or a fair as it's pretty unsafe.

This 'Combo DI' is very important in this matchup, head over to the sheik boards and look at some of the info there. They have lists on which percents and so on they can true combo bouncing fish from forward throw. They have other lists as well and you need to be aware of that stuff. In general DI'ing away and spamming nair or jump often works to get out of fair combos. Go into training mode experiment a bit with sheik to find out at which times repeated fairs do not true combo. Don't use zair unless its guaranteed to hit, its basically asking to get grabbed. Be really careful with the boomerang, sheik can basically powershield it to bouncing fish at mid-range and its guaranteed. At close range sheik can dash grab you after the powershield. Be very careful with bomb-pulls, if you do it at a bad time sheik can bouncing fish you or run up and fair or RAR bair you. Do not underestimate the speed of sheik. Respect sheiks KO potential, its a myth that sheik has a hard time KO'ing. Sheik is also really good at gimping Link always have a bomb in hand while recovering and use the boomerang to stop gimping attempts. Some sheiks also like to throw out the uair chaingrab thing, if you DI behind sheik you should get out of it pretty easily.

Make sure to read above about DIing her throws as DIing away will give her the most options at the low percents for combo potential. You can use Link's nair as a combo breaker, but most Sheiks are generally aware of when fair stops being a true combo and will start to space it better in order to have time to bait that out before going for another follow up. Also, if Sheik decides to go for RAR bair after the fair string, it can beat Link's nair (depending on range and whether her bair sweet spots) or it can trade. I wouldn't say "spam" nair as that's asking to get baited, but you will definitely need to challenge Sheik or else you're just combo fodder. Again, having bombs in these situations helps as it may explode and interrupt her combos/momentum.

Where Sheik will most likely be landing KOs on Link is the edge. Her edgeguarding is top tier. Her aerial mobility is probably the best (complimented by her moveset, hence why I think it's the best in the game), so Sheik can go VERY deep offstage to gimp Link and then safely make it back onstage.

An example of an edgeguard situation that Sheik can put Link into is forcing Link to recover low by shooting needles. This not only forces Link to sweet spot the ledge with his recovery, but this gives her multiple options to either kill, or gimp Link. For starters, if Link recovers low and sweet spots the ledge, Sheik has the option to ledge trump (the animation where the player ,who grabs the ledge after the first opponent has grabbed it, forces the opponent off the ledge into the ledge trump animation), if Sheik ledge trumps her opponent, she gets a GUARANTEED bair follow up. Not only does this send Link offstage, it will kill if at high percents.

Another option Sheik can do for edgeguards (should they recover low) is the very common, run off ledge > bair opponent into the stage. Or run off ledge > fair to send opponent farther out. She can also chuck aerial needles (these are sent diagonally downward) which will hit opponents and (at higher percents) will bounce them up giving her a great setup into bouncing fish. Her needles will beat Link's recovery should they land.

Bouncing fish itself is a fantastic edgeguard option for Sheik. It has great priority, she can alter the distance and speed of the move by pressing B again, and can kill at high percents or send you far away from the stage. She also has some pretty nifty tricks such as hanging onto the ledge and b reverse (I guess this would be what it is) and just hit you, or she can bouncing the side of the stage directly which puts in her into a flipping animation away from the stage in which she can then press b to initiate the attack. It's hard to explain but it's a flashy edgeguard mixup, I can show anyone if need be lol.

If Link is sent offstage, it is best to WAIT to use your double jump when you are closer to the stage, otherwise Sheik's needles will eat your double jump and you won't even reach the ledge. It also VERY important to HAVE A BOMB IN YOUR HAND so you can bomb jump, otherwise you are in danger. Make sure that if Sheik is hitting you with moves offstage, to DI up so you can have some sort of chance. Also throw a boomerang while falling towards the stage, keep your bomb in hand, work on teching so if Sheik hits you into the stage, you can tech and make it back. Link needs to be mixing up his recovery options and making it harder for Sheik to land moves.

Remember you want to force the opposing player to play your game at your pace. You want to play inside you comfortable zones because that is where you have the highest chance of winning. The matchup becomes a lot easier if the sheik player respects you too much. Since there aren't too many Links out there a sheik player hopefully has zero MU experience against Link, use this to you advantage to scare the sheik into respecting you. The moment the sheik player realizes that he/she can rush you down and there is not too much you can do about it you will be facing an extreme uphill battle.

This matchup is just bad news in general.

Yeah this is what you need to do in a nutshell. Link needs to control the distance and pace of the match, even if that means you are constantly running away.

Knowing what moves to use at what range is very important. Also understand that a lot of Link's moves are unsafe on shield so keep maximum distance when using the sword. Don't be that Link player who shoots grounded arrows at stupid ranges or throws boomerang at predictable times/ranges (a lot of Link players have a pattern that they stick with when throwing projectiles). Mix up your projectiles to keep the opponent guessing.

Also, don't be afraid to run away from Sheik the whole match like a *****, any decent competitive player will understand that this is what you need to do. Use your tools to your advantage and be wary of what Sheik can do to you.

If anyone needs the experience, add me and we can practice the matchup.

Feel free to ask questions as I'm sure there are a lot of things I didn't go over, there's just so much I can write about haha

 

[Knife8193]

Laws WiFi me later, I don't have problems with Shield but then again I don't play good ones.

 

[Lawz.]

Laws WiFi me later, I don't have problems with Shield but then again I don't play good ones.

It'll have to be around 8 or 9

 

[RonNewcomb]

@ Lawz. have you fought much Sheik with customs on? If so, what loadout(s) do you prefer?

I ask because today when fighting a Sheik I usually lose to, I picked Giant Bombs on a lark. I don't like GBs for the same reason as most everyone else (namely, they don't explode on contact with the target), but it worked for me in this particular MU for a couple of reasons:

1) Sheik can no longer meaningfully catch my bombs and use them against me. If she tries, I approach so that any explosion will hit us both.

2) if Sheik combos me when I have a GBomb, and the GBomb detonates, the explosion is frequently large enough to hit us both.

3) since I so rarely seem to have any control anyway, I went kamikaze and ensured that GBs would at least hit us both, if not Sheik cleanly, as much as possible. This helped because Sheik's Rage destroys her own combos, Link's rage is always helpful, and Link is heavier than Sheik to begin with.

(I also had the Skyward Leap up-B because I was intending to merely outlast her with all the trades, though I'm not sold on it.)

Thoughts? It wasn't a very good Sheik tbh; landings weren't the problem they should have been.

 

[Lawz.]

@ Lawz. have you fought much Sheik with customs on? If so, what loadout(s) do you prefer?

I ask because today when fighting a Sheik I usually lose to, I picked Giant Bombs on a lark. I don't like GBs for the same reason as most everyone else (namely, they don't explode on contact with the target), but it worked for me in this particular MU for a couple of reasons:

1) Sheik can no longer meaningfully catch my bombs and use them against me. If she tries, I approach so that any explosion will hit us both.

2) if Sheik combos me when I have a GBomb, and the GBomb detonates, the explosion is frequently large enough to hit us both.

3) since I so rarely seem to have any control anyway, I went kamikaze and ensured that GBs would at least hit us both, if not Sheik cleanly, as much as possible. This helped because Sheik's Rage destroys her own combos, Link's rage is always helpful, and Link is heavier than Sheik to begin with.

(I also had the Skyward Leap up-B because I was intending to merely outlast her with all the trades, though I'm not sold on it.)

Thoughts? It wasn't a very good Sheik tbh; landings weren't the problem they should have been.

I'm not too familiar with Link's customs other than boomerang and meteor bombs to be quite honest.

The strategy makes sense in some ways, but I could see Sheik using that against you, especially if the Sheik opts to not pursue you mid combo and rather let the bomb explode on you after a fthrow (for example), Sheik can bouncing fish the aftermath of the explosion and deal more damage.

Again, I haven't seen much of giant bombs, so I'd have to really see this for myself before I make any real assumptions.

 

[ShinnyMetal]

for me the most annoying thing about sheik is just pulling out a projectile at all. She'll just throw a single needle and stop you half the time. I've been playing my friend as link versus his sheik and I only do well cause I know how sheik plays but I hardly win with Link

 

[RonNewcomb]

The strategy makes sense in some ways, but I could see Sheik using that against you, especially if the Sheik opts to not pursue you mid combo and rather let the bomb explode on you after a fthrow (for example), Sheik can bouncing fish the aftermath of the explosion and deal more damage.

I had thought about that, but then realized it's true for all of his bombs, and even moreso for Meteor Bomb. How important to landing is his bombs? GBs alone won't assist in this much, because we don't have time to cook them before it's time to feed the ninja again. It's really my only worry. So far.

ShinnyMetal: jump first. Grounded needles go straight under you, aerial needles go down at an angle so are much more difficult to hit you with.

 

[ScizorVX]

my honest opinion after playing Mr. R, K9, Zero and other top sheiks don't use link in that MU but if you must camp like you would a D3 in brawl bomb always in hand execution on spacing and aerials, smashes, jabs, etc must be incredibly precise its just incredibly difficult easily links worst MU and if you disagree play a "real" sheik not some local/fg/wifi sheik

edit: its still possible its just incredibly difficult :D

 

[ZeldaFan98]

New stuff about 1.1.5 Sheik

I'm not listing her changes but dropping information.

Something about new fair is that new fair has less range, but allows Sheik to scrap taller characters from the ground easier with full hop fair with more frame advantage due to her being close to her target. Example being prepatch FH fair could not scrap Ryu up from the ground. FH fair in grounded opponents leads to a true bouncing fish kill at 85%~, and leads to 50-50s once out of true combo range.

Quote from Void : "There is a good percent around 100-120 as no rage sheik that you can d throw 50/50 with bouncing fish to kill off the sides. Everyone talked about b throw stuff being better, it kinda is. If they di incorrectly you can mixup immediate b fish, delay bf, vanish, or empty hop up smash depending on the situation. Up air works too."

Rumors are that Uthrow sets up for a 50/50 kill confirm but this is false.

Also this is just a percent range for when ftilt into uair will connect with No di (tested on FD) : 129% - 154%

FH Needles to Bouncing Fish is still a kill confirm, as is tipper dtilt to up air.

 

[Stryker95]

Patch 1.1.6
Options Out of Shield for Sheik MU:

For data on shields I used this document by LordWilliam1234 and looked at the advantage drop and advantage out of shield (I called the disadvantage drop and disadvantage out of shield so I don’t have to deal with negative numbers). I tested every move on shield to test if they pushed Link away or how well they could space and then tested what options we had that could still reach.

Link’s OOS:

Spoiler: Link's OOS

Jump cancelled Up-B- 8 frame start up

Jump cancelled U-Smash- 10 frame start up

Shield Grab- 11 frame start up (12 frame grab start up, 2 frame spot dodge start up for Sheik, keep in mind that the tether will take longer to grab if the opponent is further away)

Jab- 14 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 7 frame jab)

U-Tilt- 15 (7 frame shield drop, 8 frame start up)

D-Smash- 16 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 9 frame start up)

D-Tilt- 18 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 11 frame start up)

F-Tilt- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up) Can take a few frames longer as F-Tilt has hitboxes can hit later depending on when the Master Sword connects.

F-Smash- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up)

Dash Attack- 28 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 1 frame to start dash, 20 frame start up) Can take a few frames longer as F-Tilt has hitboxes can hit later depending on when the Master Sword connects.

Bomb throw- 8 frame start up (7 frames start up, 1 frame before blast)

Note on bombs: Bombs will connect even if enemy is right in your face. They come out faster than grab, but while both are active (tether and bomb moving through the air) tether moves faster than a bomb.

Some abbreviations (because I don’t want to write them out all the time):

Spoiler

DD: Disadvantage drop- this means how many frames Link has to punish Sheik after dropping shield first.

For example, Link has a jab with a 7 frame start up. If the DD of a move is 7 or more, Link can punish Sheik with this move.

DO: Disadvantage out of shield- this means how many frames Link has to punish Sheik using a direct OOS, like grab or jump cancelled moves.

For example, Up-B OOS has an 8 frame start-up, so if the DO is 8 or more, than Up-B OOS will punish.

I tested this in training mode 1/4 speed hold L, so these are frame perfect, keep that in mind when deciding what you want to use for your punish. I list all possible punishes considering good spacing and the fact that some moves push Link away, making some options that are fast enough not an option, I will point these out as they come.

If I state something as “perfect spacing” I mean Sheik hitting the edge of shield, meaning she would have whiffed entirely if Link was not shielding.
"Good spacing" means Sheik would barely hit Link if Link was not shielding.
"Bad spacing" means Sheik and Link are very close together.

Next are Sheik’s moves:

Spoiler: Jab

Jab (1): DD: 5, DO: 12

With perfect spacing Up-B can punish unless Sheik inputs another jab.
With good spacing Up-B, Grab, Bomb, and U-Smash can punish unless Sheik inputs another jab.
With bad spacing Up-B, Grab, Bomb, and U-Smash can punish unless Sheik inputs another jab.

Jab (2): DD: 5, DO: 12

With perfect spacing Up-B can punish unless Sheik inputs another jab.
With good spacing Up-B, Grab, Bomb, and U-Smash can punish unless Sheik inputs another jab.
With bad spacing Up-B, Grab, Bomb, and U-Smash can punish unless Sheik inputs another jab.

Rapid Jab: During rapid jab you can roll away once his rapid jab pushes your shield so it no longer hits you, but if he releases soon enough his ending move can hit you, but pretty rare from my testing.

Jab Ender: DD: 37, DO: 44

If pushed away where the rapid jabs will no longer hit shield and then the rapid jab ender hits shield, Grab, Bomb, F-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Tilt, and D-Smash will punish.
If Sheik has good spacing Grab, Bomb, F-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Tilt, Jab and D-Smash will punish.
If Sheik has bad spacing Grab, Bomb, F-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Tilt, Jab, U-Tilt, U-Smash and D-Smash will punish.

Spoiler: F-Tilt

F-Tilt: DD: 8 DO: 15

Grab, Jab, Bomb and Up-B will punish good spacing.
Grab, Jab, Bomb U-Tilt, U-Smash and Up-B will punish bad spacing.

Spoiler: D-Tilt

D-Tilt: DD: 13 DO: 20
Grab, D-Tilt, and D-Smash, can punish perfect spacing.
Grab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, Jab, and Up-B can punish good spacing.
Grab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, U-Tilt, and U-Smash can punish bad spacing.

Bombs can’t punish as they will go over Sheik if she is doing her animation or holds down after the move ends.

Spoiler: U-Tilt

U-Tilt: DD: 4 DO: 11

Sheik’s U-Tilt has two hits, one close to her and the next on her heel that has decent range. The first hit can hit behind her if Link is right next to her. If Sheik hits Link’s shield facing away from him, Grab, Bomb, Up-B, and U-Smash can punish.

If Sheik hits Link’s shield when facing Link with good spacing, Up-B can punish.
With bad spacing Up-B, Grab, Bomb, and U-Smash can punish.

Spoiler: Dash Attack

Dash Attack: DD: 23/22 DO: 30/29 (2nd number is for late hit that starts on frame 7)

In order for Sheik’s Dash Attack to go through Link, it must be the early hit. Up-B, D-Smash, U-Smash, U-Tilt, turnaround Jab, turnaround D-Tilt, turnaround F-Tilt, turnaround F-Smash, turnaround Bomb, and turnaround Grab can punish. Turnaround Dash Attack will not punish as Link will jump over Sheik.

If Sheik hits Link’s shield and stays in front of Link, no matter the spacing or which hit connects, anything can punish including Dash Attack.

Spoiler: F-Smash

F-Smash: DD: 11 DO: 18

If Sheik hits Link’s shield standing right next to him, she will go through him. If this happens, Up-B, U-Smash, and U-Tilt will punish.
If Sheik hits Links shield and stays in front of Link no matter the spacing (even if only the tip of Sheiks second hit hits the edge of Link’s shield) Jab, D-Smash, U-Tilt, U-Smash, Grab, Bomb, and Up-B will punish. If Link does an Up-B after the first hit of Sheiks F-Smash, the moves will trade.

Spoiler: D-Smash

D-Smash: DD: 24 DO: 31

With perfect spacing, D-Tilt, Dash Attack, D-Smash, Jab, Grab, Bomb, F-Tilt and F-Smash will punish. With good spacing D-Tilt, Dash Attack, D-Smash, Jab, Grab, Bomb, F-Tilt, F-Smash, and Up-B will punish.
With bad spacing D-Tilt, Dash Attack, D-Smash, Jab, Grab, Bomb, F-Tilt, Up-B, F-Smash, U-Tilt, and U-Smash will punish.
The same is true for the back hit of Sheik’s D-Smash.

Spoiler: Up-Smash

Up-Smash: DD: 23 DO: 30

With perfect spacing, D-Tilt, Dash Attack, D-Smash, Jab, Grab, Bomb, F-Tilt and F-Smash will punish. With good spacing D-Tilt, Dash Attack, D-Smash, Jab, Grab, Bomb, F-Tilt, F-Smash, and Up-B will punish.
With bad spacing D-Tilt, Dash Attack, D-Smash, Jab, Grab, Bomb, F-Tilt, Up-B, F-Smash, U-Tilt, and U-Smash will punish.
This is the same for both of Sheiks hitboxes (front and back).

Aerials: This is tricky. Aerials will vary because of when they hit the shield (on top, the middle, etc.), sweetspot or sourspot, autocancelling, or if the opponent screws up or not. I will just place the DD and DO as well as landing lag and auto-cancels at the end of moves. (Note: If auto cancelled, Sheik suffers only 4 frames of landing lag.)

Spoiler: Nair

Nair: DD: -3/-1 DO: 4/6 (strong hit/weak hit). Landing lag: 10 Auto-cancel: 31>
Nothing will punish if done correctly.

Spoiler: Fair

Fair: DD: -1 DO 6. Landing Lag: 10 Auto-cancel: 11>

Nothing will punish if done correctly.

Spoiler: Bair

Bair: DD: -1 DO: 6 Landing lag: 12 Auto-cancel: 31>

Nothing will punish if done correctly.

Spoiler: Dair

Dair: DD: 19 DO: 26 Landing lag: 30 Auto-cancel: 53>

Jab, Grab, Bomb, F-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, D-Tilt, U-Smash, U-Tilt, and Up-B may punish.

Spoiler: Upair

Upair: DD: 12/10 DO: 19/17 Second number for final hit. Landing Lag: 21 Auto-Cancel: 47>

Jab, Grab, Bomb, D-Smash, U-Smash, U-Tilt, and Up-B may punish.

Specials

Spoiler: Needles

Needles: DD: 23 DO: 30

Depending on how far away Sheik is, Jab, Grab, Up-B, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, F-Smash, U-Tilt, and U-Smash can punish.
Note: this move can be stopped by the Hylian Shield.

Spoiler: Grenade

Grenade: DD: 10 DO: 17

By the time the grenade finishes exploding, Sheik can shield. Not able to punish if explosion hits the shield. If the grenade hits Link’s shield, Link can punish with a walkup Jab, Bomb, or D-Tilt and can shield the explosion. Link can grab Sheik and use the invincibility frames of a throw to prevent damage from being taken. Link can hit Sheik with a Dash Attack, F-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Smash, double Jab, or Up-B but will get hit by the explosion.

Spoiler: Bouncing Fish

If this move hits Link’s shield, Sheik will bounce away and cannot act until landing on the ground unless Link was on a platform or on the edge of the stage, then Sheik can act after the move ends in the air. Link can punish with a well-spaced Dash Attack or an arrow slightly charged if Sheik must land on the ground. Link can punish with the bow if Sheik does not need to land on the ground.

Spoiler: Vanish

Vanish: DD: 28 DO: 35

Anything may punish if Sheik goes above Link. If Sheik chooses to move horizontally, Sheik will reappear just as Link can begin to input an action. Link can punish with an uncharged arrow or Dash Attack but it is difficult.

If Sheik hits Link’s shield with the reappearing hitbox anything can punish.

 

[Shoopdawooper]

I don't consider myself a particularly good player, but I do have a lot of Sheik experience, as my training buddy has a very good Sheik. And let me just say.... if you have a secondary, use it in this match-up.

Link v.s. Sheik is by far the worst match-up of Link. Fair strings carry you of stage easily, she can do pretty much anything safely on shield. If you try to punish, her jab often beats it. And if you go for a fast out of shield option, she can often punish those too, by retreating and jumping back in. Not that you should use shield much at all, because getting grabbed quickly leads to one of those fair strings that Link has just the perfect weight/fall speed for to not be able to get out of. so, like others have said in this thread, camping and hoping the Sheik misplays are your best options.

Case in point. I fought his Sheik in a tense winnersfinal match. His sheik demolished my Link, one game, I got lucky game 2, but I knew I had no chance to win when he was playing seriously for the win if I stayed Link in game 3. so I switched to my only secondary; Charizard, who arguably has an even worse matchup v.s. Sheik. But even Charizard could escape the combos easier than Link, so I took the win.

Went Link again in GF. Lost 3-0

 

[Bigbomb2]

The one Shiek in my area is pretty dangerous. I took him to game 5 recently at a last hit situation, then SD'd like a champ. A lot of the damage I tacked on came actually from grabs when he whiffed something, which is rare for Shiek. It really came down to running away, grabbing when I KNEW I could get him, and tricky bomb usage. I also had a bomb in my hand a lot on and off stage to at least have an attempt at breaking out of combos. Also a returning rang saved me a few times with the wind. Even with her nerfs she is still one of Link's worst MU's.

I have to rewatch the replays because I kind of forget what I did because of how intense the games were. Wish I could be more help

 

[Derpnaster]

I think I can contribute a little to his.

As stated Shiek is far and away Link's worst matchup, being the literal opposite of him if you think about it.
Link is a slow heavy disjoint character with few true combos, a lot of setup, downright bad frame data (by comparison) and a surprising amount of kill potential in his move set.
Shiek is a fast light brawler with a lot of true combos, less overall setup (I only say because Link can setup off of almost all his moves), god tier frame data, and an underwhelming kill potential.

Of all the traits we have to deal with the most it's Shiek's raw speed and frame advantage over Link, she can punish almost everything we do in the right conditions and with the right prediction. Because of this she beats us hard in neutral and forces us to play with caution as a single grounded bow or wiffed tilt can lead to strings from one side of the stage to the other ending with a fish kick to death because we have a predictable if reliable recovery.

What I've done to avoid that, though I'm by no means an expert and what I say is entirely my opinion backed up by my perception and game time, is to limit her movement, in my case I always have a bomb ready and I constantly keep a Gale out to push her in the position of having to dodge and move around a maze of hitboxes to get to the soft squishy Link at the center. In the process I watch how the player moves and as the match progresses I just adapt the wall of Gales and bombs to match their movements, it's by no means optimal, and if shiek get's through I have to get her out fast, usually by throwing out a tilt on a read or just jabing to get her off for a second and going to the air as we still have a fast, and strong aerial in our nair and shiek fears our fair because it can off her at eighty from midstage with rage and is pretty much a confirmed kill at edge with rage. Thankfully because we have such massive kill power any Shiek that doesn't respect it will often get reckless and fall for a lose f tilt or even a solid bomb to dash attack or faair. For the smart ones it's best to keep her spaced since nothing she has is a true disjoint save possibly uair, which means constant cat and mouse is the name of the game.

Alternatively you can try going HAM and just pounding at Shiek until it dies or breaks your offensive.

Above all I think the biggest thing we have to do is maintain focus and watch our transitions from ranged camping to melee as we lack a truly safe way to do this outside of bombsliding into the target.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I think I can contribute a little to his.

As stated Shiek is far and away Link's worst matchup, being the literal opposite of him if you think about it.
Link is a slow heavy disjoint character with few true combos, a lot of setup, downright bad frame data (by comparison) and a surprising amount of kill potential in his move set.
Shiek is a fast light brawler with a lot of true combos, less overall setup (I only say because Link can setup off of almost all his moves), god tier frame data, and an underwhelming kill potential.

Of all the traits we have to deal with the most it's Shiek's raw speed and frame advantage over Link, she can punish almost everything we do in the right conditions and with the right prediction. Because of this she beats us hard in neutral and forces us to play with caution as a single grounded bow or wiffed tilt can lead to strings from one side of the stage to the other ending with a fish kick to death because we have a predictable if reliable recovery.

What I've done to avoid that, though I'm by no means an expert and what I say is entirely my opinion backed up by my perception and game time, is to limit her movement, in my case I always have a bomb ready and I constantly keep a Gale out to push her in the position of having to dodge and move around a maze of hitboxes to get to the soft squishy Link at the center. In the process I watch how the player moves and as the match progresses I just adapt the wall of Gales and bombs to match their movements, it's by no means optimal, and if shiek get's through I have to get her out fast, usually by throwing out a tilt on a read or just jabing to get her off for a second and going to the air as we still have a fast, and strong aerial in our nair and shiek fears our fair because it can off her at eighty from midstage with rage and is pretty much a confirmed kill at edge with rage. Thankfully because we have such massive kill power any Shiek that doesn't respect it will often get reckless and fall for a lose f tilt or even a solid bomb to dash attack or faair. For the smart ones it's best to keep her spaced since nothing she has is a true disjoint save possibly uair, which means constant cat and mouse is the name of the game.

Alternatively you can try going HAM and just pounding at Shiek until it dies or breaks your offensive.

Above all I think the biggest thing we have to do is maintain focus and watch our transitions from ranged camping to melee as we lack a truly safe way to do this outside of bombsliding into the target.

I wouldn't call Link's frame data bad in terms of anything but startup, overall he only has two frames less landing lag than Sheik which is actually godlike considering the power in his aerials. I also wouldn't call his combo game poor, if you look into it its actually pretty damn good considering the type of character he is (zoner)

Other than that this is pretty spot on, the way Sheik operates is insanely hard to deal with as Link. I personally wouldn't even bother learning the MU and would instead just pick up a secondary, lucky for me Ike f-airs (haha puns) decently against her

 

[Derpnaster]

I wouldn't call Link's frame data bad in terms of anything but startup, overall he only has two frames less landing lag than Sheik which is actually godlike considering the power in his aerials. I also wouldn't call his combo game poor, if you look into it its actually pretty damn good considering the type of character he is (zoner)

Other than that this is pretty spot on, the way Sheik operates is insanely hard to deal with as Link. I personally

Thanks for the input.

I really don't try much for combos with Link, I fin that just keeping up his wall does enough dammage.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Thanks for the input.

I really don't try much for combos with Link, I fin that just keeping up his wall does enough dammage.

If you can consistently keep up a wall as well as use his combos its going to be a lot more effective since some of the payoff for his combos are huge. Soft dair -> bounce -> soft dair -> bounce -> dair spike is a true combo that can potentially kill extremely early

 

[Stryker95]

Soft dair -> bounce -> soft dair -> bounce -> dair spike is a true combo that can potentially kill extremely early

Wait what? By bounce do you mean like a Pogo stick? Because you are really only going to get two of those and if you can get a third it won't spike. From 0-10% Sheik can shield before the 2nd hit. From 15-25 Sheik can DI down and away from Link to avoid or shield the 2nd hit. From 30% and above Dair will bounce her too hard and the second hit won't connect.
With no DI from 15-25 the two hits will connect but the second will pop her up as it will connect at the hilt. If timed perfectly one can combo into an Up-B which the counter reads as true but I am not sure that it is, I didn't look too far into it.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Wait what? By bounce do you mean like a Pogo stick? Because you are really only going to get two of those and if you can get a third it won't spike. From 0-10% Sheik can shield before the 2nd hit. From 15-25 Sheik can DI down and away from Link to avoid or shield the 2nd hit. From 30% and above Dair will bounce her too hard and the second hit won't connect.
With no DI from 15-25 the two hits will connect but the second will pop her up as it will connect at the hilt. If timed perfectly one can combo into an Up-B which the counter reads as true but I am not sure that it is, I didn't look too far into it.

Yeah I debunked this a while ago. He must have watched the video of misinformation and then not read my post about it, both of which can be found here http://smashboards.com/threads/link-social-the-triforce-of-doin-work.370194/page-365#post-20915938

 

[Lord Renning]

The only thing I've found is that down air beat Sheik's up air, removing one of her only kill options, and down air also makes it really hard to connect a bouncing fish if the Sheik doesn't hit Link in the head with it, as it seeming replaces most of our body with a hitbox.