MU discussion: MewTwo

[HoS_Beast]

Ok, lets get this thread out there. Mew two is out. What are people's opinions on the matchup?
Any combos? Anything to watch out for? Lets get cooking.

Spoiler: confirmed

Spoiler: Pros

General

Much lighter than Yoshi.
We are faster.
Mewtwo has a big hitbox.​

Attacks

Our nair seems do do a whole lot of work on mew two.​

Spoiler: Cons

General

Due to Mewtwo's side B, dash attack is often a bad choice unless used to punish mistakes.

If MewTwo throws out side B we have to jump away/air dodge.

Good recovery, can recover from almost everywhere off stage.​

Attacks

Shadowball has to be played around since we can't do much about it.
Up throw is kill throw.
Up b makes his recovery hard to punish(not impossible)
Nair can completely gimp us off stage causing a 0 to death situation.​

Spoiler: Unconfirmed or not sufficiently tested

Spoiler: Pros

Attacks

Back air is slower than ours.
We can neutral air out of their neutral
Mewtwo is vulnerable right before snapping to ledge after using up b
DI away from Mewtwo during down throw to negate it.
Shadowball(neutral B) breaks double jump at 40% (no rage)(2)
Shadow Claw(side air) breaks double jump at just under 50%(no rage)(2)
Down air breaks double jump at around 65%(no rage)(2)
Confusion(Side b) breaks double jump.
​

General

Neutral game is worse than ours(needs testing and explanation)
Mewtwo is not super good at handling extreme preasure
He seems to be at a perfect weight to do some small combos on.
Yoshi forces mewtwo to be more agressive than he would like.
Approach from above is good.(1)
Can't grab us during parts of landing lag(needs more testing)
Our moves have better frame data​

Spoiler: cons

Attacks

Mewtwo's back air has more range than ours(need %s)
Mewtwo's side b stops most of our approaches if timed correctly
neutral b has good knockback and can be easy to time if yoshi is forced to fly.(can it be air dodged before landing/shielded after landing? anyone mind testing this)
Side B gimps incomming?
Grab comes out on frame 4? (needs testing)
Neutral b can knock us out of double jump
​

General

Approach from above is bad due to uptilt(1)​

Spoiler: Useful tips

If Mewtwo tries to do things after hitting with Confusion, the player is more than likely seeing what they can get away with. Mewtwo is -5 or something close on hit with Confusion, meaning anything they do afterward isn't real. Mewtwo's safest attacking option is jab, which will beat a mashed out neutral air (based on spacing, not on frames). If Mewtwo goes for Confusion as an attack option and not a reflect, pay attention to what they try to do--don't let them rob you by missing your tech and falling into smashes or tilts.

*(1) contradicting statement that needs to be tested more
*(2) Need to test the actual numbers on this
Update:
Back to doing more updates to this thread. finally returning^^

 

[Sinister Slush]

Giant, light as game and watch, neutral that's worse than ours, can't do much if we just be on the aggressive entire time.
65:35/+3 for us.

 

[YoHeKing]

Hmm well the meta game needs to develope for mewtwo but seems a bit difficult to fully understand the MU. I wouldn't think it was a uneven MU. Seems like alot of his combos can get broken or escaped by Yoshi. Once I study this MU for awhile Ill probably post what I think and share it with the lovly yoshi community.

 

[HoS_Beast]

I have also noticed how an outright agressive yoshi can **** up MewTwo, but to be honest, with his set he should be able to beat us. I mean lets look at it.

His back air is longer than ours, if timed correctly he can outrange us. Ours is a lot faster to come out though.

His forward air is short and not very useful in an air duel against yoshi.(although i might be wrong about this.)

His projectiles are strong and have a huge knockback. I got killed at roughly 110% with a fully charged one, haven't fully tested it yet(was on omega stages)

His neutral seems hard to come around, i am not 100% sure about the range compared to our neutral/back air.

He can reflect our projectiles, (more testing needed in terms of range and damage)

if he is not in landing lagg or some other kind of lagg our charge attack is useless against a good mewtwo. He can simply counter it with a side b.

These are the things i have found so far. I am still busy doing my knockout % list.

Ill keep this thread updated.

 

[YoHeKing]

I have also noticed how an outright agressive yoshi can **** up MewTwo, but to be honest, with his set he should be able to beat us. I mean lets look at it.

His back air is longer than ours, if timed correctly he can outrange us. Ours is a lot faster to come out though.

His forward air is short and not very useful in an air duel against yoshi.(although i might be wrong about this.)

His projectiles are strong and have a huge knockback. I got killed at roughly 110% with a fully charged one, haven't fully tested it yet(was on omega stages)

His neutral seems hard to come around, i am not 100% sure about the range compared to our neutral/back air.

He can reflect our projectiles, (more testing needed in terms of range and damage)

if he is not in landing lagg or some other kind of lagg our charge attack is useless against a good mewtwo. He can simply counter it with a side b.

These are the things i have found so far. I am still busy doing my knockout % list.

Ill keep this thread updated.

We can pressure him big time I know. But we have a huge advantage over him. We have are faster, jump faster and were less of a hitbox. Hes such a big hitbox to us. Also you should test out if yoshi can mess up his downthrow.

 

[HoS_Beast]

We can pressure him big time I know. But we have a huge advantage over him. We have are faster, jump faster and were less of a hitbox. Hes such a big hitbox to us. Also you should test out if yoshi can mess up his downthrow.

Could you please test some? as i said i am busy doing the knockout % thread, its taking up a bunch of my time. ill update this thread whenever you guys find something more. Feel free to test any of the unconfirmed things.

 

[YoHeKing]

="HoS_Beast, post: 19002853, member: 304821"]Could you please test some? as i said i am busy doing the knockout % thread, its taking up a bunch of my time. ill update this thread whenever you guys find something more. Feel free to test any of the unconfirmed things.

Like I said ill be studying the MU when I get home and when I say study I mean Ill test everything I can find including whats mewtwo cancels out of Yoshis moves and what Yoshi cancels out. Ill also test what moves can launch Yoshi but has enough lag for yoshi to come back and attack. Might take a few hours but it really helps. I know that fully charged ball does 25% and can KO at around or below 100%. But it takes along time to charge and Yoshi can stop it.

 

[HoS_Beast]

Awesome. Just post your finds and ill put them up here. Now, i have to go afk to get myself some food. Been testing for 2 hours on stupid wuhu island. That map has so many platforms and stages.

 

[YoHeKing]

HoS_Beast, post: 19002903, member: 304821"]Awesome. Just post your finds and ill put them up here. Now, i have to go afk to get myself some food. Been testing for 2 hours on stupid wuhu island. That map has so many platforms and stages.

I wont be home till after school so some1 might beat me. I know how to play Mewtwo pretty good so we could test it on each other to truly understand a bit more. None of my freinds play Yoshi anymore lol.

 

[HoS_Beast]

I wont be home till after school so some1 might beat me. I know how to play Mewtwo pretty good so we could test it on each other to truly understand a bit more. None of my freinds play Yoshi anymore lol.

Sure, just add me. my nnid is xillians. Id be up for some testing, although we are hosting smash n drinks later today, so we might not be able to play any til after that.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I played Mewtwo all day yesterday, and while he's fun, he has all the right ingredients for a pretty free win for Yoshi.

 

[Shiri]

Mewtwo has some interesting things going for him, but he has quite a few weaknesses that make it hard to win against Yoshi.

Big, light, slow. When Yoshi runs circles around your character at extended ranges, you have a problem. Mewtwo has great space control tools (glad to see his character fleshed out a bit more this time around), but he really has to commit to be effective. Yoshi's air speed and ability to weave in and out of close range quickly means that Mewtwo has to be a bit more aggressive than he'd prefer in order to be effective.

If Mewtwo gets the lead and clams up, he can be very hard to open up with the default moveset. Mewtwo's jab is pretty good. His grab ranges are weird--I haven't pinpointed where they're best used yet and there seems to be a blind spot with 2 out of the 3. Shadow Ball and Shadow Claw are tools that Yoshi has to play around because he doesn't beat them straight up. Confusion is interesting because in this particular matchup, it hurts Mewtwo more than it helps him, but I'd have to play around with it a bit more to see how Mewtwo can use it to interact with Yoshi in different situations.

I can see this matchup becoming difficult on platform stages where Yoshi doesn't have the lead. Mewtwo's space control is real and if he were any faster, he'd be a real problem. Otherwise, smart Yoshi play that isn't overly aggressive should be enough to win.

 

[YoHeKing]

Mewtwo has some interesting things going for him, but he has quite a few weaknesses that make it hard to win against Yoshi.

Big, light, slow. When Yoshi runs circles around your character at extended ranges, you have a problem. Mewtwo has great space control tools (glad to see his character fleshed out a bit more this time around), but he really has to commit to be effective. Yoshi's air speed and ability to weave in and out of close range quickly means that Mewtwo has to be a bit more aggressive than he'd prefer in order to be effective.

If Mewtwo gets the lead and clams up, he can be very hard to open up with the default moveset. Mewtwo's jab is pretty good. His grab ranges are weird--I haven't pinpointed where they're best used yet and there seems to be a blind spot with 2 out of the 3. Shadow Ball and Shadow Claw are tools that Yoshi has to play around because he doesn't beat them straight up. Confusion is interesting because in this particular matchup, it hurts Mewtwo more than it helps him, but I'd have to play around with it a bit more to see how Mewtwo can use it to interact with Yoshi in different situations.

I can see this matchup becoming difficult on platform stages where Yoshi doesn't have the lead. Mewtwo's space control is real and if he were any faster, he'd be a real problem. Otherwise, smart Yoshi play that isn't overly aggressive should be enough to win.

He gets it! But Im gonna study exactly everything. Hes really light and slow in air. It could be helpfull but we have to take in consideration if mewtwo can safly be in the air. Yoshis air speed is so fast that he could easily punish a warp down to the stage and using nair to drag yoshi down could most likly end up to a boot to the face. I would love this MU to be even but from the looks of it yoshi seems like a good character against mewtwo. And from the looks of it mewtwo dosnt look deadly if you approach him above because he cant grab yoshi during some of his landing lag animations.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I have an insane amount of fun playing Mewtwo so I'm picking him up as a pocket character that may never get whipped out.

That said, he's absolute combo food, is light as ****, and is definitely a win for us lol. His range is huge so maybe he might be able to reliably keep us out, but honestly...once we get in there its not a fun day for him.

Basic stuff i can say from using him a bit.

• Don't bother trying to gimp a good mewtwo, if they have a jump, they can recover from as low as the bottom blast zone and autosnap the ledge.
• He has to be upclose and personal to kill, but his tilts are really long range so he can keep you out with this. Upthrow is a kill throw.
• Side b forces you to jump away or try to air dodge. Trust me just jump away. We dont' have the range to challenge it on hit confirm.
• This part is pure theory craft, but watch out for side b gimps. I think its the future lmfao.

You should just win this matchup though tbh. As of right now it's mindless.

He gets it! But Im gonna study exactly everything. Hes really light and slow in air. It could be helpfull but we have to take in consideration if mewtwo can safly be in the air. Yoshis air speed is so fast that he could easily punish a warp down to the stage and using nair to drag yoshi down could most likly end up to a boot to the face. I would love this MU to be even but from the looks of it yoshi seems like a good character against mewtwo. And from the looks of it mewtwo dosnt look deadly if you approach him above because he cant grab yoshi during some of his landing lag animations.

It's still early, but I'm going to preemptively say that you shouldn't just approach him any kind of way from the air. His Uptilt and side b are really good antiairs, and upthrow is a kill throw so if he powershields like a falling nair or something it could get you killed late game.
His landings against us though are infact, really really bad.

 

[YoHeKing]

I have an insane amount of fun playing Mewtwo so I'm picking him up as a pocket character that may never get whipped out.

That said, he's absolute combo food, is light as ****, and is definitely a win for us lol. His range is huge so maybe he might be able to reliably keep us out, but honestly...once we get in there its not a fun day for him.

Basic stuff i can say from using him a bit.

• Don't bother trying to gimp a good mewtwo, if they have a jump, they can recover from as low as the bottom blast zone and autosnap the ledge.
• He has to be upclose and personal to kill, but his tilts are really long range so he can keep you out with this. Upthrow is a kill throw.
• Side b forces you to jump away or try to air dodge. Trust me just jump away. We dont' have the range to challenge it on hit confirm.
• This part is pure theory craft, but watch out for side b gimps. I think its the future lmfao.

You should just win this matchup though tbh. As of right now it's mindless.



It's still early, but I'm going to preemptively say that you shouldn't just approach him any kind of way from the air. His Uptilt and side b are really good antiairs, and upthrow is a kill throw so if he powershields like a falling nair or something it could get you killed late game.
His landings against us though are infact, really really bad.

Yes but we have to think of the metagame. Mewtwo defenetly cant be gimped or edge guarded. Could spamming neutral B when yoshis off stahe make him try to recovor by using a jump canceld air dodge to safly get up the beems and get messup by mewtwo? Mewtwos grab really sucks. If he power sheilds it yoshi will land and the lag will cause him not to be grabbed.

 

[HoboJoe]

Yoshi already has a relatively poor neutral game, and Mewtwo has an even worse neutral game. He has limited approach options and his attacks come out very slowly, as long as we stay on the aggressive and play around being shield grabbed and confusion I think the matchup is very much in our favor. The matchup is still worth testing though, but all of our moves have better frame data than his. The one thing we really have to actively worry about is shadow ball, that kills ridiculously early and goes right through our egg toss.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Yes but we have to think of the metagame. Mewtwo defenetly cant be gimped or edge guarded. Could spamming neutral B when yoshis off stahe make him try to recovor by using a jump canceld air dodge to safly get up the beems and get messup by mewtwo? Mewtwos grab really sucks. If he power sheilds it yoshi will land and the lag will cause him not to be grabbed.

I'm not sure what you mean by think of the metagame, and I don't really understand what you're talking about while you're talking about recovery. Like I can't tell who's doing what in the sentence.
Also while mewtwo's grab range does suck, but your last statement wrong just because powershields are lagless. You'll get grabbed i've done it on FG already lol.

 

[YoHeKing]

CelestialMarauder~, post: 19007204, member: 157066"]I'm not sure what you mean by think of the metagame, and I don't really understand what you're talking about while you're talking about recovery. Like I can't tell who's doing what in the sentence.
Also while mewtwo's grab range does suck, but your last statement wrong just because powershields are lagless. You'll get grabbed i've done it on FG already lol.

The grab has lag. A fastfall forward air cant be grabed because of yoshis fair lag makes him so short that yoshi cannot get grabed.

I really wish I had my computer. Mobile really sucks and it always freezes for me. Sorry about this though!

Also mewtwo could be able to gimp yoshi with neutral B move spamming. Its really fast, long ranged and could be a great edge guard tactic against Yoshi. I would have to test this though.

 

[Delta-cod]

I hear Mewtwo's grab comes out on Frame 4 or something ridiculous. If he can't grab it's certainly a matter of hurtbox/hitbox displacement.

 

[YoHeKing]

I hear Mewtwo's grab comes out on Frame 4 or something ridiculous. If he can't grab it's certainly a matter of hurtbox/hitbox displacement.

I dont think so. I already have 500 battles with him and I have really bad time grabing short or small character. I had really bad time against pika even when perfect sheilding his air moves because of mewtwos grabs cant grab under.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Look we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I've done it before so he can shield grab you for nairing his shield. Just because it doesn't always happen doesn't mean it cant.

 

[YoHeKing]

Look we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I've done it before so he can shield grab you for nairing his shield. Just because it doesn't always happen doesn't mean it cant.

Im talking about yoshis fair. Nair yes but fair dosnt get grabed correctly because the landing lag has yoshi laying down.

Also agreeing and disagreeing are normal for MU discussions right? Otherwise if everyone agreed on everything in the MU there wouldnt a use of discussing the MU.

 

[Delta-cod]

Then all Mewtwo has to do when you Fair shield is hit you with something else. He doesn't only have grab as an option.

 

[HoS_Beast]

ill update the main post tomorow.

 

[YoHeKing]

Then all Mewtwo has to do when you Fair shield is hit you with something else. He doesn't only have grab as an option.

Yup. We need to test what type of moves can punish yoshi from that approach. Alot of his moves seem slow enough to be sheilded after the lag. This is a thing I need to test. Also im just saying fair might be a good approach and mind game.

So from what ive noticed is mewtwo dominates yoshi off stage and yoshi dominates mewtwo on stage. My freind has a pretty good yoshi(better then most) and I gimped him at 20% because of nair.

Also seems like 80% of mewtwos combos get broken by yoshi and end up more harmfull for mewtwo.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Yohe the double posting lmao, it's gonna get you in trouble one day.

And he isn't super combo heavy to begin with so i'd imagine a nair would combo break most things if yoshi is close enough.
I don't feel like he really beats us offstage, but i haven't played this matchu much from either side

 

[YoHeKing]

Yohe the double posting lmao, it's gonna get you in trouble one day.

And he isn't super combo heavy to begin with so i'd imagine a nair would combo break most things if yoshi is close enough.
I don't feel like he really beats us offstage, but i haven't played this matchu much from either side

I really wish some1 would explain what double posting is. I only see one post. Anyways mewtwo can pull off some sick combos.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

You only see one post because the Deltacod is using his mod powers to put the posts together. Double posting is when the last 2 posts in a thread are both made by the same person.

 

[Delta-cod]

Double posting is what happens when you have the most recent post in a thread, and then you post again, meaning that there are two posts by you in a row. This is only acceptable under very specific and rare circumstances.

The reason you only see one post is because I'm merging your double posts into one post, to fix the issue. Just because I can do that doesn't make double posting okay.

Any other questions, please PM me about it or go to forum support. This thread is not the place for rule discussion.

Back to Mewtwo, everybody~

 

[YoHeKing]

Double posting is what happens when you have the most recent post in a thread, and then you post again, meaning that there are two posts by you in a row. This is only acceptable under very specific and rare circumstances.

The reason you only see one post is because I'm merging your double posts into one post, to fix the issue. Just because I can do that doesn't make double posting okay.

Any other questions, please PM me about it or go to forum support. This thread is not the place for rule discussion.

Back to Mewtwo, everybody~

Ah had no clue what this ment. I was thought my phone was re sending comments twice. I understand now and thanks! So basicly I must only reply or edit?

You only see one post because the Deltacod is using his mod powers to put the posts together. Double posting is when the last 2 posts in a thread are both made by the same person.

Oh okay cool. Anways back to topic.


Anyways I noticed that his neutral B is good at gimping yoshi.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Double posting is what happens when you have the most recent post in a thread, and then you post again, meaning that there are two posts by you in a row. This is only acceptable under very specific and rare circumstances.

The reason you only see one post is because I'm merging your double posts into one post, to fix the issue. Just because I can do that doesn't make double posting okay.

Any other questions, please PM me about it or go to forum support. This thread is not the place for rule discussion.

Back to Mewtwo, everybody~

get ninja'd kid

Ah had no clue what this ment. I was thought my phone was re sending comments twice. I understand now and thanks! So basicly I must only reply or edit?


Oh okay cool. Anways back to topic.


Anyways I noticed that his neutral B is good at gimping yoshi.

does it break our double jump or something? I don't really see how it would be any better at gimping us that any of the other projectiles like it.

 

[HoS_Beast]

get ninja'd kid

does it break our double jump or something? I don't really see how it would be any better at gimping us that any of the other projectiles like it.

Its not better than any of the similar projectiles (except if its faster to charge or something?). But it is a decent tool to use to stop approaches or punish a bad landing. Its definitively more useful on flat stages with few platforms.
I think that if you are worried about neutral b you should bring mewtwo to battlefield/wuhu island/sunshine map. Or even green hill zone.


Oh, and a thing i noticed yesterday. Right after comming out of teleport to ledge (the instasnap) he can be hit. This could be abused with a well timed fair or dair.

I found this out when a friend played donkey kong and forward air spiked the hell out of me before getting the ledge. Good times were had.


**Update**
updated the main post with more pros and cons. tried to get all of the things said here into their respective places, if i missed anything please let me know

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Double-posting is one of the weirdest and most arbitrary rules I've ever heard of. The fact that people care about it blows my mind.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's fine a first or second time for newcomers, but when they do it 4+ times when told not too along with making a lot of threads to ask questions when one of the first threads you read when opening the Yoshi boards is stickied, it becomes a problem.
As for why it's a rule still, best guess being the whole "don't spam" thing. But then you realize there's 2014/2015 people that have like 10k posts in less than 10 months of them joining by just being in the smash 4 social boards or something.

Shadow ball definitely hits hard enough to knock us back from our DJ even if half charged.

 

[HoS_Beast]

It's fine a first or second time for newcomers, but when they do it 4+ times when told not too along with making a lot of threads to ask questions when one of the first threads you read when opening the Yoshi boards is stickied, it becomes a problem.
As for why it's a rule still, best guess being the whole "don't spam" thing. But then you realize there's 2014/2015 people that have like 10k posts in less than 10 months of them joining by just being in the smash 4 social boards or something.

Shadow ball definitely hits hard enough to knock us back from our DJ even if half charged.

Can someone confirm that Shadow ball knocks us out of Double jump?

 

[YoHeKing]

Neutral air is a very deadly move against yoshi. It can mess up yoshis 2 nd jump but it also can be used to fastfall and bring yoshi down far. A successful edgeuard from mewtwo completly distroys yoshi even at 0% if your a good mewtwo. But from the looks of it mewtwo cannot keep up on stage with yoshi. Almost all of mewtwos combos and moves can get mewtwo naird to the face by yoshi.
Irs not easy to edge guard a good yoshi in the first place.

So the fact that mewtwo can gimp yoshi with the correct reads and skill at lower% or even high could mean its a EVEN MU. Also from what ive noticed fair spamming seems pretty good against mewtwo

 

[HoS_Beast]

Haven't been able to play much(focus wise) due to having people over, so i haven't been able to do any testing. But i should be avaiable tonight(today for you americans). I still don't feel like my body is at its peak though, had one(or ten) too many to drink during smash n drinks yesterday

 

[Sinister Slush]

If there's another thing in common Yoshi mains have outside of wearing contacts/glasses, it's that they can drink good too.
Also edit the OP, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many spoiler tags just to get to the info you have in there.

 

[YoHeKing]

Haven't been able to play much(focus wise) due to having people over, so i haven't been able to do any testing. But i should be avaiable tonight(today for you americans). I still don't feel like my body is at its peak though, had one(or ten) too many to drink during smash n drinks yesterday

Its fine we can test stuff out us two. Its not serious sets or anything. But also up tilt can do more harm to mewtwo then yoshi. I found out the hard way.

 

[HoS_Beast]

If there's another thing in common Yoshi mains have outside of wearing contacts/glasses, it's that they can drink good too.
Also edit the OP, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many spoiler tags just to get to the info you have in there.

The OP is constantly being edited, i just don't want it to be super long, and organized is good in my opinion^^

i CAN remove the general/attack spoilers and just do it simple with a header

also, yeh. i drank a BIT too much though, but what the heck. it was a really fun night^^

@ Sinister Slush Looking better now?