MU Discussion: Marth

[NickRiddle]

According to the MU chart, we have a 0 in this MU.
If you disagree in any way, post.
If you agree at all, post why.

Discuss the Marth MU. I will try to stay out of MU discussions and let the other players talk.

 

[infiniteV115]

When I play this MU, I feel like it's in our favour but the Marths I play aren't exactly spectacular so I'll go with 0. Take everything I say on this with a grain of salt cause I guess you could call me inexperienced in this MU.

-We're better at juggling, better offstage and better at killing. Marth has the advantage when it comes to damage output (mainly because of dancing blade) so DB plays a very important part in this MU. If you can bait out DBs and avoid them, shooting paralyzers is a good way to punish because they won't clash with DB as DB is transcendent, and from there you can follow up with dash attack-->something (probably utilt)/grab/sideB (obviously a good Marth won't miss DBs often). I feel paralyzers are good in general as they can trap Marth's landings quite well and they hinder his approaches.
-Run away--> pivot nB/sideB are very good in this MU I feel, they help us space ourselves against Marth.
-Marth should never be approaching with rising aerials; if he does, utilt/usmash/uair.
-Landing fairs can be powershielded-->utilt/dtilt/dash attack (or at least it seems like it, I do it all the time lol) depending on how the Marth spaces it.
-Don't charge dsmash too often, Marth can often nair you for it.
-The entire jab combo works on Marth (ie he can't powershield the 3rd hit unless he SDI's down) but he can dolphin slash out, so...yeah...XD
-Don't approach with sh sideB.
-I think our bair outranges his fair.
-When I SDI out of poorly spaced dancing blades (I get hit by the first 3 hits, then the 4th misses) then punish with dtilt/dash attack. I don't know if you can punish with sideB/grab, I haven't tried.
-Spacing with dtilt is very important.
-Don't use your get-up attack after 100, Marth can upB OoS. This probably works for our regular get-up attack as well (I'm talking about the get-up attack from the ledge)
-Marth either has to commit to kill, kill you at high percents (150%+) with non-tippered aerials/DB or get a hard punish, so be safe on shield once you reach 80/90%. Less utilts, grabs and sideBs (excluding run away pivot sideBs, those are still good). It should be obvious that you want to avoid tippered aerials at all times.
-At low percents I THINK you can avoid fthrow followups (fthrow-->nair and fthrow-->fsmash) with downB, but don't get predictable with it. Pretty sure you can't get CGed.

In general, just avoid DB at all costs. Punish landings with dtilt, dash attack and paralyzer. Punish anything unsafe on shield/whiffed with dtilt/utilt/dash attack/uair(or dsmash, but this shouldn't be happening lol). Zone with run away pivot nB/sideB, and space your dtilts. Uair OoS is good. Juggle the crap out of him at every given opportunity.
We can't edgeguard him THAT well (we're probably not going to land any bairs/2nd hit fairs) so don't get too crazy. Most of the time you can't really get anything other than an uair, so just use that.

Ugh, okay I'm gonna sleep now.

 

[.EXE]

In response to the edgeguarding you probably can edgeguard him it's just harder in a sense. What I do is go close enough to the ledge usually ppl jump and airdodge back onto the stage so what i do is space myself and cover their options by spamming neutral B.

I do it in such a way that he either is able to shield the attack or get hit by it and in some cases they don't expect the hit and Sd by themselves.

So knowing that I'm spamming neutral B remeber they get hit shielded or a miss: if he jumps from the ledge I can probably punish with a SH fair or a full jump, if he rolls onto the stage he either gets F- smash, D smash/D smash any aerials, reverse grabbed, or you can just run lol

Just a reminder though you'd be using Neutral B in such a way that it's ending so the second he gets hit or whatever you can do another attack or at least have a choice to do something other than getting gimped.

 

[NickRiddle]

Full nB works, as long as you mix-up with moving/d-smash/shield. Marths also shouldn't be SDing this far into the game, so don't assume they will.

 

[.EXE]

@ InfiniteV115 yeah you really need to play High quality marths and I'm serious they are way better than ours however since last tourney I did not attend I felt like they were finally catching on.

Marths I recommend are Quest, Mikehaze, Nike or Neo one of those black guys don't remember which or Pug/pugwest one of them is really good/ ok but once you learn/ realize what they're doing it's almost like you realize how bad marth is again and will be like ppl lose to this?

Anyways I recommend High caliber players because they know the strings after each attack or grab and are amazing to play.

Final thing and just imo Marths that Up B too much are bad they need to get it out of their system you can practically bait an Up B.

 

[.EXE]

Nickriddle saw you play ally at MLG Logic had shaggy hair then your play was amazing from what I saw.

 

[.EXE]

I honestly don't recommend Full charged Nb personally because of the time it takes to charge one and I only recommend it at greater distances I want the pressure to be on marth on getting up from the ledge...... Dammit not sure but I think he can get back on with a well placed Neutral air or Fair not sure I should check I know a lot of his moves cancel out our attacks.

 

[infiniteV115]

exe, please don't triple post, double posting is bad enough >.<
Yeah I'd play better Marths if I could...but wifi sucks, and I don't have the money to travel. Not yet. So I have to rely on my experience with Suzaku, and to a lesser extent, Inle.
Maybe I'll face a good one at CoT6.

And I don't think Nike's that good, I don't even think he's ranked in Texas though I could be wrong, I'm too lazy to check. Not to **** on Nike, but...yeah

 

[BioDG]

Nike is good. He seems to have trouble with this MU, but I wouldn't write him off that easily.

Nice analysis btw.

 

[.EXE]

Thank you Bio Senpai! Another thing about marths that determines how good they are or at least knowledgeable is that I noticed they fight within their dash range as does good sorry excellent MK players. So when you hear things like Fair camping you'll understand it , and you may think about such strings (should they hit you) like falling fair, into Dtilt , tap dash fair/neutral air and then idk maybe they finish it off with something fancy.

Those are just some things I'm used to expecting from them also you should notice their attacking style and in this MU I honestly recommend using your shield as little as possible unless you can power shield well like Dakpo. I tend to do a lot of retreating attacks during the match or walking D smash and neutral B's.

A few things I'd say is don't write off your neutral air in this MU notice what type of marth player he is a ground based running with barely any short hops, or a double jumper many things on how he approaches you, or like how he likes to jump and use his double jump to get in on you, and finally what is his short hop tactic they all have different ones so even when playing someone like Killock who ppl say is ranked 5th in north america (Someone told me this) I still manage to find some tactics/ errors of his play.

 

[Nike.]

lol at this infinite guy calling me out

Alot of Marth mains thought this was +1 Marth during the first Matchup Chart Project, but I always felt it to be 0. Lemme find a post I made about it once.

I'm in the minority for the Marth Panel when I say that this MU is even.

Zss sideb and dsmash loses to Marth nair.
However, because Marth has to commit (do nair same time that Zss starts her move), Zss could dash attack the nair.
But then Marth beats dash attack with most defensive options (upb OoS being a big one).

Yea, that's just a few of the many different ways both characters can zone each other out.
At neutral, I see this as Marth approaching while Zss walls.
He has a few calculated tools to penetrate, while she has a few calculated tools to counter his well timed appraches.
Usually the first player to screw up finds himself in a bad position.

Zss' uair may very well be my most hated move in brawl. It's range, speed, and cooldown is beyond broken, ESPECIALLY OoS.
(I've been hit by this witchcraft between both hits of tippered nair on her shield. WTF)

Both characters are amazing at edgeguarding each other.
Marth has an answer to everything she has on ledge.
Zss can do the same, even moreso when Marth is above 100% and with RCO.
They have to play the super patient game and hope the opponent commited to some form of edgeguard.

Marth DOES have amazing armor piece combos. Entire stocks can easily be taken if he gained control of a single piece. Dthrow -> Fair -> repeat is my favorite.

I play a type of Marth that relies of trapping the opponent into using bad air/spot dodges or rolls.
With that said, I find these traps extremely difficult on her.
Her aerial mobility/fall speed combined with an air dodge is really hard to punish.
Her foward roll is fast like lucario/pit. Can't punish from reacting, gotta make the read.
Her UTILT is mad homo.
Buffered Utilt after spot dodge or air dodge comes out extremely fast, hits BEHIND HER, and puts Marth in the air above her.
Her dodges are technically beatable, but they require perfectly timed and calculated punishes, or you fall prey to something ghey (utilt/fast roll).

There's more to the MU (havent even gone into the edgeguarding aspects since Shaya is pretty good at explaining that), but I'll wait.
I can see both arguments for even or slight adv marth, but I view it more as even.

**** Zss.

 

[infiniteV115]

Sorry if that came out wrong, I didn't mean to 'call you out'. I just meant that AFAIK, you aren't regarded as a high/top-level Marth like Mike, Neo, Kadaj, etc.

 

[.EXE]

At nike think lucas MU sorta like a snake vs lucas for when you face Zss but be careful, your marrth will be snake though. Also I appreciate the insight from your perspective now I think I may have an edge against some marth players but still will have to be careful and lots of work to do.

That little bit about the neutral air helps I think but what if it is retreating can you still dash attack it?