[MU] Cloud

[epicnights]

One of the most unexpected things to come to smash yet, Cloud Strife has broken the limit and made his way into smash. Death Battle says that that Link wins the matchup, but what does our courageous hero need to do in order to succeed against this ex-soldier? Give your strategies, counterplays, trump cards and overall opinions of the Link vs. Cloud matchup in Smash for Wii U.

 

[LEGOfan12]

Why is this called "The Final Fantasy Duel"?

 

[epicnights]

Cloud is from Final Fantasy, and a lot of people allude to Link and Cloud being rivals ever since the Death Battle video. Figured it'd be a more interesting title than "[MU] Cloud".

 

[Lawz.]

Link loses this, anyone who disagrees can get at me.

Link suffers against characters with good mobility who can zonebreak his projectile game. That's something Cloud can do very well. Cloud has good aerials that can autocancel and lead into uair strings as well as his down-b limit break.

While Link can edgeguard Cloud, Cloud can also edgeguard Link as well. His dair hits underneath the ledge and with 2 frames of vulnerability on ledge grabs, that can easily spike Link's disgustingly linear recovery.

 

[Rewrite]

Cloud is from Final Fantasy, and a lot of people allude to Link and Cloud being rivals ever since the Death Battle video. Figured it'd be a more interesting title than "[MU] Cloud".

I feel the need to ask, why is it on the Link boards you guys can't just call it the 'Insert character name here' Match-Up thread or something like that?

Anyways, moving on to the actual discussion:

Link loses this MU by a long shot, one of the biggest reasons is Link can't find a lot of solid footing to pressure Cloud. A big part of this is Cloud's Limit which forces Link to play outside of his strengths.

As Link, if you want to try to zone with projectiles it won't work since Cloud will just stand there and charge Limit for free, simply shielding whenever your projectile comes near. Whenever his Limit is full he becomes faster, making it even easier for him to zone break, which already was not a difficult thing for Cloud to do in this MU.

Either Link has to approach himself which he has terrible options for, fight closer range which is still really bad since the Buster Sword out-ranges the master Sword significantly, or try and projectile which essentially gives Cloud free Limit.

it's also pretty difficult to get grabs because of Cloud's good mobility. Conditioning him to sit in shield will also be incredibly difficult since Cloud can simply drop shield after blocking and punish with his decent oos game with moves such as retreating n-air and Climhazard.

Link also has few options to escape combos, juggles, and set-ups outside of air-dodge which Cloud still has set-ups to bait and punish. Cloud's up-air is almost incontestable by any of Link's attacks outside of throwing a bomb downwards. Dair and Nair are near useless for combo breaking outside of mix-ups when Cloud is heavily anticipating air-dodges. Up-tilt is also a massive pain.

Link also will have some difficulty juggling Cloud. Cloud's nair can break from the sides and even from above if you are careless. Dair also has ton of range can sometimes trade or simply beat out your attacks. Another option Cloud has as mix-up is fast fall up-air, which will completely reverse the situation if it lands.

As epic as it is seeing Link and Cloud being able to officially duke it out for the first time (Nomura's promotional art piece looks fantastic), Link is super limited in his options and so very rarely finds himself in a position of power. Cloud is just too overwhelming.

~~~~~~~~~~

EDIT: I forgot to mention Limit Blade Beam. It has transcendent priority, comes out either just as fast or faster as any of Link's projectiles (which won't really matter since it will ignore them due to transcendence), ignores Hylian Shield, and will kill you. he can use it to punish almostanything Link does. Have fun.

 

[~Unknown~]

Link doesn't lose this mu. If anything it's even but I'd say slightly in links favor. Let's go over a few things about this mu.

charging limit: to put it short, let cloud charge limit. I'm not saying stand there n let him charge but keep your mid range while approaching him with projectiles to get damage on him. Most clouds like to charge limit n. wait for the opportune time to use it. Rushing into cloud while he charges is a bad idea. By him charging it gives link the time to begin his set ups. Limit is going to come anyway so use that as an opportunity to set up your traps. fighting cloud should not be about ruining his charge or rushing in.

Keys to victory: Get cloud offstage. Sounds pretty obvious but I'd say even more so in this mu. One good read n cloud will lose a stock. On the case he brings you down with him using upb cloud will always die first assuming he has no limit of course. Besides Nair/Fair mix it up. SH arrow and gale works wonders.
"Example" Down angled gale if timed right will bring cloud on to the stage as he tries to recover using upb. He'll still be in ff animation which equals a free punish. Also throwing gale towards stage using wind effect could work (need more labing with this)

Disadvantages: Where link loses this mu is when he is above cloud. He can easily bait out an air dodge into uair. N I'm not sure if link dair beats it. (Unfortunately no labbing partner :/) Nair definitely doesn't beat it. Cloud is fast but he's not rush down imo. He can rack up damage on link rather well n kill early with limit moves. With that being said.

Rage: Link is more of a threat with rage then cloud. Cloud out ranges link yes but he has no guaranteed combos from throws. Does have limit set ups that are percent dependent but overall he has to get a read or bait a sheild drop to kill. Cloud will rank up damage on link fast but that'll just make link hit harder when going for gimps. Speaking of which. Back to the second point.

Gimps: even at low percents. Forget getting combos such as dthrow utilt, etc. I just go straight to getting cloud uncomfortable which is throwing him off stage. Also stage choice is important but I'll stop here as I'm at work. But will go more in depth when I'm actually home

 

[Rewrite]

Link doesn't lose this mu. If anything it's even but I'd say slightly in links favor. Let's go over a few things about this mu.

charging limit: to put it short, let cloud charge limit. I'm not saying stand there n let him charge but keep your mid range while approaching him with projectiles to get damage on him. Most clouds like to charge limit n. wait for the opportune time to use it. Rushing into cloud while he charges is a bad idea. By him charging it gives link the time to begin his set ups. Limit is going to come anyway so use that as an opportunity to set up your traps. fighting cloud should not be about ruining his charge or rushing in.

Keys to victory: Get cloud offstage. Sounds pretty obvious but I'd say even more so in this mu. One good read n cloud will lose a stock. On the case he brings you down with him using upb cloud will always die first assuming he has no limit of course. Besides Nair/Fair mix it up. SH arrow and gale works wonders.
"Example" Down angled gale if timed right will bring cloud on to the stage as he tries to recover using upb. He'll still be in ff animation which equals a free punish. Also throwing gale towards stage using wind effect could work (need more labing with this)

Disadvantages: Where link loses this mu is when he is above cloud. He can easily bait out an air dodge into uair. N I'm not sure if link dair beats it. (Unfortunately no labbing partner :/) Nair definitely doesn't beat it. Cloud is fast but he's not rush down imo. He can rack up damage on link rather well n kill early with limit moves. With that being said.

Rage: Link is more of a threat with rage then cloud. Cloud out ranges link yes but he has no guaranteed combos from throws. Does have limit set ups that are percent dependent but overall he has to get a read or bait a sheild drop to kill. Cloud will rank up damage on link fast but that'll just make link hit harder when going for gimps. Speaking of which. Back to the second point.

Gimps: even at low percents. Forget getting combos such as dthrow utilt, etc. I just go straight to getting cloud uncomfortable which is throwing him off stage. Also stage choice is important but I'll stop here as I'm at work. But will go more in depth when I'm actually home

No.... This is all... incorrect, to put it nicely. "Oh, just let him hit you so that we have rage to kill him." What are you talking about? Cloud is absolutely ridiculous with rage. FInishing Touch, Cross Slash, and Blade Beam under limit with rage are stock enders, and are all amazing. This also includes all of Cloud's smashes and aerials which are already amazing in their own right. Using Link's projectiles to approach, for real? What are some properties of Link's projectiles, all of which when fired or pulled, cause him to cease all movement? You can throw bombs to pressure shield, but again Link has poor follow-ups, especially against Cloud's great oos game. Cloud also has Blade Beam, which he can use the transcendence

Also, just letting Cloud charge limit for free is a bad, but you pretty much can't help but approach him when he does it since he can just shield all your projectiles on reaction and you have poor approaching options. You are severely underestimating Cloud with Limit. Even without it, Cloud can just go in and eat Link's face. He dominates Link hard in neutral to the point where it's almost an s&m relationship. Link just gets so hard outspaced by forward tilt, and if you whiff anything you're eating a d-tilt into aerial set-ups.

Also, if you're just letting Cloud charge limit for free then that means he will also have it when you put him off stage. With limit, Climhazard can recover from essentially the bottom of most stages, and while it is still edge-guardable, it's a lot trickier and Cloud can use the combination of insane vertical and horizontal movement to mix it up. Even if you just throw Cloud off-stage without limit, his recovery isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Yes, it's really poor and exploitable, but the Cloud just isn't going to sit there and take it.

It's like how everyone says "Oh, Little Mac is easy: Just put him off-stage!" and then you fight a competent Little Mac and you realize how ridiculously good he is in neutral and it's notgoing to be as easy as you first though. Except it's harder because it's Coud, and Cloud is really goodi.

This approach with projectiles and fight him up close sounds so for glory it hurts, and against slightly competent Cloud's will true combo into you getting rekt.

Link fights by using his projectiles to force his opponents to approach on unfavourable terms since they can't be used to effectively wall against even Ganondorf, and then hit them once they've tried to come in. Once they;ve been knocked away, what you'll usually want to do is rinse and repeat, and Cloud just beats all of it.

 

[~Unknown~]

I'm speaking from tournament experience against the character. Also are you speaking from cloud perspective or links? Based on everything your saying cloud vs link is 100 - 0 lol. So let me ask you. Are you speaking based off tournament or FG. Also you say alot of why cloud beats link so in your opionion what would link have to do to contend with cloud? Lastly link beats lm but that's a whole nother story.

 

[Rewrite]

First, where did I ever say that it was a 100-0 MU? I said it was very unfavourable. There is no such thing as a 100-0 MU.

Second, the question of "What does Link have to do to beat Cloud" is part of the reason why this is such a bad MU. Link has poor options in this match-up and that's why its bad. When every action a character takes requires them to almost always outplay another with no safe pokes or pressuring tools, that's a bad sign for that MU.

Nothing Link has is safe against Cloud barring long range projectiles that barely hinder him. Speaking of projectiles, Link's are terrible for approaching outside of throwing a bomb since upon usage it cuts your mobility. In a sword fight Cloud simply overpowers Link with his superior range and frame data and doesn't give a damn about projectiles whatsoever. There are simply no advantageous positions for Link outside of actually having Cloud in hit stun. it's all uphill for Link and most of your actions will punished if you don't land hits.

I don't know what Cloud's you've been fighting, but when you're playing a character with both inferior range AND frame-data and your simply running up to them and hitting them, then the Cloud's you're fighting are probably very bad.

 

[~Unknown~]

Are you speaking from tournament or FG. Matter of fact link me some of your gameplay.

 

[rosebudz]

EDIT: I forgot to mention Limit Blade Beam. It has transcendent priority, comes out either just as fast or faster as any of Link's projectiles (which won't really matter since it will ignore them due to transcendence), ignores Hylian Shield, and will kill you. he can use it to punish almostanything Link does. Have fun.

I agree with everything you said, except bombs actually can hit limit blade beam and activate its multi-hit.

 

[Rewrite]

Are you speaking from tournament or FG. Matter of fact link me some of your gameplay.

I wouldn't personally use my gameplay as examples of match-ups because I think I'm a below average player. I'll always start off strong because of my game knowledge and ability to abuse my opponent's disadvantages in the match-up, but they'll slowly start to catch up as they figure out my tactics and exploit my still weak ability to adapt.

I'm actually blessed to have an amazing local tournament scene for Smash 4 where most of the top players are willing to just throw down with anyone if you ask. I also attend my local tournaments whenever able.

If anything, I want to see the videos of the Clouds you fight where you can run up to them and swing your sword
Again, you're the one whose speaking from what appears to be a heavy fg standpoint. Run up to Cloud and swing your sword? God damn, that's stupid. Go look at Kurogane Hammer's charts to see how hard Link is out frame-data'd and out-ranged.

I'll let you sit here and be delusional thinking Link actually stands on even footing in this MU.

 

[Rinku リンク]

I'd say it's slightly unfavored for Link because of Cloud's mobility and range but I don't think it's too bad for us. Beam Blade can be annoying to deal with but it doesn't exactly outcamp our projectile play so he still has to approach us. His approach options are pretty good but pretty limited overall so it's nothing too scary.

Offstage he definitively has an advantage but he's pretty easy to gimp as well without limit break so it goes both ways honestly like Lawz. said.

I'd say it's a 55:45 or 60:40 Cloud's favor but again I don't find the MU all that bad personally if you play your cards right.

 

[FooltheFlames]

Cloud has great aerials, great aerial mobility and out ranges Link on most everything. He can combo well in early percentages and kill you early too. He can also edge guard and gimp you quite well.

But His projectile isn't as spammy as any of Links projectiles, and Link still has his Zair match Clouds aerial range. Also Link can still setup good edge guards on Cloud even if he has limit break, killing him earlier than you would expect.

What hurts Link here is he has to get Cloud up high in the percents for the guaranteed kills on the stage, while Cloud doesnt have to get that high of percents on Link for the kills, and Cloud can be good at maneuvering Links projectiles with some effort, which is where alot of the built up damage Link is aiming for against his opponents comes from in other match ups. So Link has to play more safe, poking when he can, while Cloud feels freer to do what he wants here

So Match Up for Link vs. Cloud = 35-65, 40-60 ???
MU is more in favor for Cloud here, but not impossible for Link

 

[DarkDeity15]

First, where did I ever say that it was a 100-0 MU? I said it was very unfavourable. There is no such thing as a 100-0 MU.

Second, the question of "What does Link have to do to beat Cloud" is part of the reason why this is such a bad MU. Link has poor options in this match-up and that's why its bad. When every action a character takes requires them to almost always outplay another with no safe pokes or pressuring tools, that's a bad sign for that MU.

Nothing Link has is safe against Cloud barring long range projectiles that barely hinder him. Speaking of projectiles, Link's are terrible for approaching outside of throwing a bomb since upon usage it cuts your mobility. In a sword fight Cloud simply overpowers Link with his superior range and frame data and doesn't give a damn about projectiles whatsoever. There are simply no advantageous positions for Link outside of actually having Cloud in hit stun. it's all uphill for Link and most of your actions will punished if you don't land hits.

I don't know what Cloud's you've been fighting, but when you're playing a character with both inferior range AND frame-data and your simply running up to them and hitting them, then the Cloud's you're fighting are probably very bad.

Just stop lol. You're acting as if the MU is terrible, when you hardly know anything about Link, not to mention that you've already admitted you're a below average player. What makes you think we should take you seriously? You're arguing with people who have tournament experience, and you're a below average player. Does that sound right to you? You don't even take into consideration what Link can do in certain situations because you don't know what his options are. At all. Basically all you're regurgitating here is "Cloud is faster and out ranges Link so Cloud beats Link in every way hur hur". The bias you have for Cloud is completely obvious. Gtfo.

And to say Link has no safe pokes or pressuring tools is ********. Bombs and Zair. Fair is also quite safe on shield and it kills, though it has some start-up so it's not something we should throw out without considering Cloud's options given the situation. Getting hit by a bomb at kill % for Fair will probably mean that Cloud is going to die. If it doesn't straight up kill Cloud, he's still way off stage which as far as what's known is a terrible position to be in unless he has limit, which we can still take advantage of. Cloud will get bodied off stage while trying to recover. Recovering on stage might end up with Cloud being sent off stage again or getting killed depending on what Link is doing, though Cloud will probably be safe most of the time. Getting hit by bombs in general is a scary position to be in at kill %. Bombs come out at frame 5 which makes them potent OoS and Link can follow up from pretty far off for the kill, so Cloud needs to play safely at mid range. Link can also just grab you right out of limit cross slash if you miss thanks to its incredible range so that isn't a safe kill option. It's also among the best tether grabs in general. So yeah, Cloud isn't completely safe against Link just because Link's frame data isn't amazing. Link can also close gaps with bomb slides fairly easily and abruptly if Cloud gets too comfortable.

Blade beam and even limit blade beam should be pretty useless outside of edge guarding. Not only can Link just power shield BB easily due to how slow it moves and is pretty unsafe if you aren't super far away thanks to Link's tether grab, but bombs and Hylian shield negate it. Pretty much anything can negate it though lol. Limit blade beam can also still be negated by bombs so they aren't a threat as long as Link has a bomb in hand and doesn't get hit with it while recovering.

If you play unsafe, you're either going to take a lot of damage or you're going to die early. If you make a mistake or a bad decision, often you're going to regret it. This can be said for both sides which has me believing that this is a pretty fun MU if both players are at an equal skill level and know the MU themselves. MUs where both characters destroy each other are awesome lol. I suppose it's the same reason why Falcon mirrors are fun. It's almost as if they designed these characters to destroy each other, which makes sense. It's a pretty legendary MU after all.

Overall I'd say it's pretty even or slightly in either character's favor. I'll add a few tidbits of information once and a while, but Link does in fact have the tools to compete with Cloud.

 

[Rewrite]

Just stop lol. You're acting as if the MU is terrible, when you hardly know anything about Link, not to mention that you've already admitted you're a below average player. What makes you think we should take you seriously? You're arguing with people who have tournament experience, and you're a below average player. Does that sound right to you? You don't even take into consideration what Link can do in certain situations because you don't know what his options are. At all. Basically all you're regurgitating here is "Cloud is faster and out ranges Link so Cloud beats Link in every way hur hur". The bias you have for Cloud is completely obvious. Gtfo.

And to say Link has no safe pokes or pressuring tools is ********. Bombs and Zair. Fair is also quite safe on shield and it kills, though it has some start-up so it's not something we should throw out without considering Cloud's options given the situation. Getting hit by a bomb at kill % for Fair will probably mean that Cloud is going to die. If it doesn't straight up kill Cloud, he's still way off stage which as far as what's known is a terrible position to be in unless he has limit, which we can still take advantage of. Cloud will get bodied off stage while trying to recover. Recovering on stage might end up with Cloud being sent off stage again or getting killed depending on what Link is doing, though Cloud will probably be safe most of the time. Getting hit by bombs in general is a scary position to be in at kill %. Bombs come out at frame 5 which makes them potent OoS and Link can follow up from pretty far off for the kill, so Cloud needs to play safely at mid range. Link can also just grab you right out of limit cross slash if you miss thanks to its incredible range so that isn't a safe kill option. It's also among the best tether grabs in general. So yeah, Cloud isn't completely safe against Link just because Link's frame data isn't amazing. Link can also close gaps with bomb slides fairly easily and abruptly if Cloud gets too comfortable.

Blade beam and even limit blade beam should be pretty useless outside of edge guarding. Not only can Link just power shield BB easily due to how slow it moves and is pretty unsafe if you aren't super far away thanks to Link's tether grab, but bombs and Hylian shield negate it. Pretty much anything can negate it though lol. Limit blade beam can also still be negated by bombs so they aren't a threat as long as Link has a bomb in hand and doesn't get hit with it while recovering.

If you play unsafe, you're either going to take a lot of damage or you're going to die early. If you make a mistake or a bad decision, often you're going to regret it. This can be said for both sides which has me believing that this is a pretty fun MU if both players are at an equal skill level and know the MU themselves. MUs where both characters destroy each other are awesome lol. I suppose it's the same reason why Falcon mirrors are fun. It's almost as if they designed these characters to destroy each other, which makes sense. It's a pretty legendary MU after all.

Overall I'd say it's pretty even or slightly in either character's favor. I'll add a few tidbits of information once and a while, but Link does in fact have the tools to compete with Cloud.

You mean I'm showing bias towards the character whom I think wins the Match-up? What a novel concept. Also, I just played in a tournament today, so balls to that statement.

I will admit to being a slightly below average player, but I certainly think I'm better than most of the Link boards, the boards where a good chunk of players think Link's dair is a good option to beat out the Zero Skill Spamus combo. You have no basis for your assumptions about my game knowledge. I did say that my weakness as a player comes from be getting downloaded despite gaining early leads by abusing my MU knowledge.

I already went into how hard Cloud can punish link with his good oos game. Them fairs aren't looking so hot when Cloud just comes at you oos with nair. Even if Cloud can't punish you off of bombs and zair he can still run in after which isn't a favourable position for Link. Also, saying Limit Cross Slash is an unsafe KO option barely matters, since pretty much every KO option in Link's arsenal is unsafe as well lmao. Who's the biased here here again? Cloud's also don't throw out limit moves randomly. They'll save it for a punish or read, like most powerful moves that are considered unsafe. Cloud also has a very safe and powerful KO options in the form of up-air and bair, and drop zone nairs can wreck havoc on characters whom have lost their second jump. On certain stages Cloud's dair will go underneath the ledge, but that doesn't matter too much since the giant hitbox downward will hit Link out of Spin Attack which lacks good coverage above.

Also, yes, please use Link's bomb slides to come in and do Cloud;s approaching for him. You mentioned two things Link has as safe approaches (which can be punished, but okay,) but Cloud still has many safe ways to poke at and pressure Link. Link's options are limited in this MU while Cloud is free to use almost all of his.

Also, limit Blade Beam is a very powerful tool in this match-up in the form of a PUNISH tool which I stated so earlier. Again, it ignores the Hylian Shield and while bombs can stop it, Clou can use it as a great punish that can KILL if you whiff a projectile, pull a bomb at the wrong time, or an attack. Even if Link shields it, it traps him in shield so Cloud can just run up to him which is an unarguably unfavourable position.

I repeat: there are few favourable positions for Link apart from getting Cloud off stage. Cloud still dominates neutral and essentially doesn't give a **** about Link's general tools. Cloud doesn't just out-range Link on every attack, he also out frame-datas him in everything too with the exception being forward and up smash, fair, and bair. Wowzers. Again, I don't know what Cloud's you guys have been fighting, but they must be pretty bad.

Better mobility, range, frame-data, and can basically ignore his projectile game? I'd say that's a bad match-up for Link.

At what point during this MU can you say that Link has an advantage? All you can say is off-stage, but I repeat: Have fun getting Cloud there. I'll just leave the Link boards to their delusions now.

 

[DarkDeity15]

You mean I'm showing bias towards the character whom I think wins the Match-up? What a novel concept. Also, I just played in a tournament today, so balls to that statement.

I will admit to being a slightly below average player, but I certainly think I'm better than most of the Link boards, the boards where a good chunk of players think Link's dair is a good option to beat out the Zero Skill Spamus combo. You have no basis for your assumptions about my game knowledge. I did say that my weakness as a player comes from be getting downloaded despite gaining early leads by abusing my MU knowledge.

I already went into how hard Cloud can punish link with his good oos game. Them fairs aren't looking so hot when Cloud just comes at you oos with nair. Even if Cloud can't punish you off of bombs and zair he can still run in after which isn't a favourable position for Link. Also, saying Limit Cross Slash is an unsafe KO option barely matters, since pretty much every KO option in Link's arsenal is unsafe as well lmao. Who's the biased here here again? Cloud's also don't throw out limit moves randomly. They'll save it for a punish or read, like most powerful moves that are considered unsafe. Cloud also has a very safe and powerful KO options in the form of up-air and bair, and drop zone nairs can wreck havoc on characters whom have lost their second jump. On certain stages Cloud's dair will go underneath the ledge, but that doesn't matter too much since the giant hitbox downward will hit Link out of Spin Attack which lacks good coverage above.

Also, yes, please use Link's bomb slides to come in and do Cloud;s approaching for him. You mentioned two things Link has as safe approaches (which can be punished, but okay,) but Cloud still has many safe ways to poke at and pressure Link. Link's options are limited in this MU while Cloud is free to use almost all of his.

Also, limit Blade Beam is a very powerful tool in this match-up in the form of a PUNISH tool which I stated so earlier. Again, it ignores the Hylian Shield and while bombs can stop it, Clou can use it as a great punish that can KILL if you whiff a projectile, pull a bomb at the wrong time, or an attack. Even if Link shields it, it traps him in shield so Cloud can just run up to him which is an unarguably unfavourable position.

I repeat: there are few favourable positions for Link apart from getting Cloud off stage. Cloud still dominates neutral and essentially doesn't give a **** about Link's general tools. Cloud doesn't just out-range Link on every attack, he also out frame-datas him in everything too with the exception being forward and up smash, fair, and bair. Wowzers. Again, I don't know what Cloud's you guys have been fighting, but they must be pretty bad.

Better mobility, range, frame-data, and can basically ignore his projectile game? I'd say that's a bad match-up for Link.

At what point during this MU can you say that Link has an advantage? All you can say is off-stage, but I repeat: Have fun getting Cloud there. I'll just leave the Link boards to their delusions now.

Limit blade beam should not be putting Link in that position unless he is at point blank range. Even then, the absolute worst thing Cloud can do is throw Link for positional advantage. You don't even know what's safe or not with Link so you're just going to insist that nothing is, even if it's already been shoved into your face lol. How the hell does Cloud not give a **** about all of Link's tools? Do Link's tools just magically go through him with no effect whatsoever? And you're better than most of the Link boards? Lmao, just stop already. Do you realize the position you just put yourself in? Any and all of the credibility you might've had just disappeared as soon as you typed that. Oh wait... You never had any to begin with.

Do you see now why we shouldn't take MU information from below average players seriously? I'm going to advise you to not post here again at least until you know better, but if you must go on, please do.

 

[Dumbfire]

Do you see now why we shouldn't take MU information from below average players seriously?

lol why are you posting anything about this mu then

I will admit to being a slightly below average player, but I certainly think I'm better than most of the Link boards, the boards where a good chunk of players think Link's dair is a good option to beat out the Zero Skill Spamus combo.

one ****** said that and was immediately called out on it by 2 different people, what the **** are you on about a "good chunk of players". now if you're gonna call people out better share footage

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

No more ad hominem arguments please. This is supposed to be a MU discussion. You may talk about anything relating to the Link and Cloud MU. Do not talk about other people's tournament experience or skill or supposed lack thereof. While I do appreciate that there are times when raising such doubts can be helpful, most of the time it is fruitless and is a waste of everyone's time. In fact, in many instances I'd call it spam as it is not even on-topic, especially if the issue has already been addressed. Try not to push it.

There are some perfectly legitimate points being raised; if you cannot argue directly against them, then maybe you shouldn't post at all. And if it is at all possible, though I know I'm now probably asking for too much, some minimal degree of mutual respect would be very much appreciated, not just by me, but by everyone concerned I'm sure. It's still relatively early days with this MU, so you shouldn't feel the need to cement yourselves into positions that you cannot give ground to, which is unhealthy in any case.

 

[Rewrite]

lol why are you posting anything about this mu then

one ****** said that and was immediately called out on it by 2 different people, what the **** are you on about a "good chunk of players". now if you're gonna call people out better share footage

Yeah, IDK what I was doing. I was mostly just trying to call out that one guy, but then I went and generalized the whole Link forum. I even remember looking at that one dude's post who said the same thing a while thinking he was ********. I realized shortly after I posted what a dumbf**k I was being and came back not to edit, but make a post about how I was ****** and apologize to the Link boards overall, but the thread was locked when I came back. I'm glad it was unlocked so I could comeback and post an apology. Sorry about derailing the thread.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Yeah, IDK what I was doing. I was mostly just trying to call out that one guy, but then I went and generalized the whole Link forum. I even remember looking at that one dude's post who said the same thing a while thinking he was ********. I realized shortly after I posted what a dumbf**k I was being and came back not to edit, but make a post about how I was ****** and apologize to the Link boards overall, but the thread was locked when I came back. I'm glad it was unlocked so I could comeback and post an apology. Sorry about derailing the thread.

It's all good. I actually have a lot of counter arguments which have useful information I couldn't come out with for... reasons lol. Anyway, Nair OoS doesn't work against Link's Fair on shield for one. Link will be able to roll or run away long before Nair can hit him if spaced well. Climhazard OoS though idk, though at first glance it doesn't seem to have enough range to punish a well spaced Fair and climhazard comes out at frame 7. Fair 2 is especially tricky to punish OoS. If Cloud tries to Nair OoS before Fair hits shield, Link can react in time to avoid being hit.

For Limit blade beam, of course it is dude. But Link can just spam bombs to counteract this, and bomb tosses as well as rang have low end lag, so attempting to punish those is not ideal. Link can wiff as many rangs and bombs as he wants if all you want to punish them with is limit blade beam. Cloud must approach either way which is what Link wants. Staying at midrange is pretty bad for Cloud overall since that is where Link gets rewarded the most, so in order to stay safe Cloud should either stay far away or be past Link's zone and in his face. Having limit will make it a bit easier and safer, although Link will combo Cloud harder if he messes up due to the faster fall speed.

Bombslides should not be taken lightly. Link will slide up to you real quick to try and follow up off of the tossed bomb or to rush in for a punish, or both. With the non-fakeout versions though, specifically. I can see Cloud having a hard time against planted bombs, since they limit his options on the ground, and he can easily blow the bombs up on himself by accident because of his big ass sword. They also render both versions of blade beam completely useless alongside the ground. As for safe kill options, Link has either bombs into Fair/aerial spin attack or Utilt (which is frame 8 I believe). Dsmash is by far the quickest and safest smash attack he's got. Lastly just running in after Link throws a projectile without a plan will likely end up with Cloud getting pivot Ftilted in the face, which is also a powerful and fairly safe kill option. Getting pivot grabbed (which is a much better answer to Cloud's dash attack) at kill % may mean that Cloud will get Dthrow Uaired although I need to check if that combo is true on Cloud.

Edge guarding Cloud is a breeze. If he goes a little bit past the ledge (or is just in range), then Ftilt, Dtilt (the spike hit box is devastating) and Dsmash (2nd hit of Dsmash is also devastating since it hits Cloud at a very horizontal angle) will lead into a kill at kill % or potentially kill him at an incredibly low % without limit, and you can watch as Cloud is sent to the shadow realm each time. Link can also Zdrop bombs on or just off the ledge which may lead into a Dair spike or pretty much anything. Snapping to the ledge with Braver (the downward swing of Cloud's up b) can also be dealt with by a well timed grab or Fsmash, though it's probably pretty tricky to pull off the timing since Cloud comes down pretty fast. And if Cloud has a double jump try your best to steal it from him, otherwise watch out for double jump Uairs from him at the ledge.

 

[Vince Rose]

IMO this matchup might prove to be dead even as time goes on. I might say it's in Link's favor, though I could be biased due to being a Link main (I've been using Cloud on the side lately as well though).

Now let's see my points...

Neutral Game: Link wins neutral thanks to projectile game. Cloud does have options to deal with Link's zoning, but the amount of possible plays, setups, traps, etc with Link's zoning game provides a considerable advantage. Link's zoning will also allow him to avoid Cloud's Limit Breaks since, ideally, he will always be at a safe distance and will be able to avoid getting hit by them, by all of Cloud's moves really (this will be important later on).

Punish game: Cloud has the better punish game. When they manage to get in on each other they can both punish each other hard, however I give this to Cloud simply due to how strong his juggle game is with his Up Air strings and how easy it is to combo Link in general (Cloud himself is also pretty easy to combo though). It's always been disadvantageous to be above your opponent though, especially if they're a swordsman.

Edgeguarding: I'm going to assume Cloud has his Limit Break charged since he always should at high levels. With this, the edgeguarding game becomes pretty even. Link's edgeguard game is amazing, but Cloud Limit Break Climhazzard is very hard to edgeguard due to it's speed and distance. The hitbox it has whilst travelling also makes it very risky to deal with. Cloud's edgeguarding game against Link is also very good, but Link has plenty of mixups with his recovery such as Zair and Bomb Jump. So when it comes to edgeguarding they both edgeguard each other well. It's important to note, however, that when Cloud does not have his Limit charged the edgeguard game is completely in Link's favor due to how limited (dat pun) Climhazzard is as a recovery move.

Damage output: Pretty even as well. Link will be getting a lot of mileage from his zoning and Cloud will get it from his juggle strings. Don't see one over the other here.

Kill ability: I'll give this one to Link due to having more consistent kill setups. Both have great kill power, but Cloud suffers here due to having inconsistency in landing his finishers as well as the access to finishers to begin with. This is where having Limit charged is important. When he has it, he has access to decisive finishers. When he does not, he gets Marthritis. The problem with landing kill confirms is also still present. First he'll need to get past Link's zoning and then he needs to make sure he lands a kill confirm if not a raw kill move. Having no follow ups out of throws at kill percents, for example, shows the problem. The fact that you lose the Limit Charge when you wiff the Limit doesn't help either. Having to charge for another 6 seconds is not good. Luckily many of Cloud's normals have kill power so he doesn't have to rely entirely on Limits, but the issue of not having confirms and Link having such a strong zoning game still hurts him. Link on the other hand gets confirms from his projectiles and his throws (along with a viable kill throw around 150-160 percents), which gives him more opportunities to kill.

Shield Pressure: About even. Don't see one over the other here either. I'd probably place Link at an advantage here as well due to how good he is at putting up pressure from varying distances (whereas Cloud mostly focuses on close-range), but that may be my bias towards Link showing.

OoS: I see Link having a better time here due to having options such as Sex Kick Nair, Up B and Bomb toss. His grab range is also far better than Cloud's. Link's range with his options help counter Cloud's sword range whilst the same can't be said about Cloud. If Cloud is getting shield pressured by Link he'll probably be too far to hit Link with an OoS option due to Link putting zoning pressure.

Basically, the way I see it is that Link can win the matchup very handily as long as he plays his game properly. If he makes a single mistake, however, Cloud WILL bring it back. HARD. I put this at an even 50-50, if not possibly 55-45 Link's favor.

One thing I'd like to point out is that, if I'm not mistaken, there was an article some time ago about Cloud's development in the meta where Cloud experts weighted in and there was agreement between them that Cloud does not deal very well against zoning type characters (with the worst of these matchups in their opinion being ROB). Link being one of these should mean he has an advantage. Don't be so quick to count Link out.

 

[supremE_]

. . . . . . . .

 

[Tri Knight]

There's absolutely no way in hell this is an even MU for Link...

Clearly, with Cloud's god awful speed and horrible frame data as well as his inability to even get in on Link's impenetrable wall, obviously it's in Link's favor.

And if you actually believe that, then god save you.

 

[ZSaberLink]

For those who don't know, ~Unknown~ is a very good Link player who does really well in his local scene in Southern VA. There's a reason why people are listening to what he says, since he does well with Link. Look up Sova Unknown to see how he plays.

Anyways if you look at the 2 main Clouds in the US now (Tweek & Mew2King), you'll notice that Bladebeam, even with Limit is super easy to block and they basically never used it in Shots Fired 2 as an example (M2K did I guess, but it was blocked every time). It comes out at frame 16. Honestly it's the least scary of all Cloud's Limits and probably the worst.

One advantage Link does have in this matchup is that Cloud's grab has no followups past the really early %s. It's essentially there just to buy time to charge limit for Cloud. As such, the best defensive option against Cloud seems to be Shield. Like Unknown said, edgeguarding cloud is a good strategy.

 

[Lord Renning]

This is a crew battle vs M2K. 7's Link was the only one to takes stocks off Mewtwo's Cloud, and it's at the front of the video. I'm leaving here as material for the MU if anyone can garner insight or discussion from it.

 

[LakerLink]

My expeirence, I have played several clouds at local tournies. I prefer playing cloud on flat maps with less to none platforms, that way I can pressure cloud with projectiles(mostly arrows) so he won't charge, forcing him to chase or come and attack you.

I usually wait for cloud to attack first and wait to punish, or I wait till he is in distance for the grab

Those are my three cents of tips in this fight, flat maps, spam arrows, and counter/punish cloud after he attacks.

I still think cloud has the matchup advatage Cuase of his sword reach, but I'm very comfortable going against a cloud now.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

A couple of things.

Link wins the vertical aerial game. Link's Uair will beat Cloud's Dair, and Cloud's Uair can at best trade with Link's Dair if he takes it head on. The only way for Cloud's Uair to beat Link's Dair is from the side at the end of Cloud's sword such that Link's Dair hitbox cannot reach Cloud's hand, but then we're no longer talking about a strictly vertical contest anymore. Cloud will have to outmaneuver Link in the air or swing first rather than directly challenge him to a vertical range/disjoint contest.

My expeirence, I have played several clouds at local tournies. I prefer playing cloud on flat maps with less to none platforms, that way I can pressure cloud with projectiles(mostly arrows) so he won't charge, forcing him to chase or come and attack you.

I usually wait for cloud to attack first and wait to punish, or I wait till he is in distance for the grab

Those are my three cents of tips in this fight, flat maps, spam arrows, and counter/punish cloud after he attacks.

I still think cloud has the matchup advatage Cuase of his sword reach, but I'm very comfortable going against a cloud now.

You'd be better off taking Cloud to Lylat if possible, or any stage with low platforms. Cloud is going to get his limit no matter what if they are competent and if they are persistent, regardless of what stage you're on, and projectiles won't be enough to stop them. At least on Lylat you have the tilting stage to mess with his Up-special recovery that doesn't ledge snap on the way up, and you have the platforms to hinder Cloud's FH Dair approaches.


Note about Lylat's tilting stage:
Some moves will follow the contours of the stage while others will always act as if Link is standing on a flat surface. When you're facing down-hill for example, F-tilt won't hit as low at full reach because it will continue to act the same as it would on a flat surface, but of course if you're facing up-hill, it will hit much lower below stage than usual. D-smash on the other hand will adjust where it hits in relation to the surface it is used on (except on extreme slopes; it has a limit to how far it will adjust), so on Lylat it will always hit at the same distance from the ground regardless of the slope.
Because characters hanging on ledges behave as if they were hanging on a ledge attached to a flat surface, D-smash will actually hit 'lower' in relation to them, even though it is hitting at the same distance away from the line of the stage.
Because the outer edges of Lylat are at an angle, the tilting of the stage will never actually fully compensate for it and so you'll never actually be able to take advantage of F-tilt hitting lower than usual. At best the outer edges of the stage will always have the slightest slant downwards, even when the stage is fully tilted the other way.
With that said, against a recovering Cloud on Lylat, you'll probably want to favour either the first or second hit of D-smash except when the stage is tilted all the way up; only then will F-tilt hit lower than D-smash as usual.

 

[ZSaberLink]

A couple of things.

Link wins the vertical aerial game. Link's Uair will beat Cloud's Dair, and Cloud's Uair can at best trade with Link's Dair if he takes it head on. The only way for Cloud's Uair to beat Link's Dair is from the side at the end of Cloud's sword such that Link's Dair hitbox cannot reach Cloud's hand, but then we're no longer talking about a strictly vertical contest anymore. Cloud will have to outmaneuver Link in the air or swing first rather than directly challenge him to a vertical range/disjoint contest.


You'd be better off taking Cloud to Lylat if possible, or any stage with low platforms. Cloud is going to get his limit no matter what if they are competent and if they are persistent, regardless of what stage you're on, and projectiles won't be enough to stop them. At least on Lylat you have the tilting stage to mess with his Up-special recovery that doesn't ledge snap on the way up, and you have the platforms to hinder Cloud's FH Dair approaches.


Note about Lylat's tilting stage:
Some moves will follow the contours of the stage while others will always act as if Link is standing on a flat surface. When you're facing down-hill for example, F-tilt won't hit as low at full reach because it will continue to act the same as it would on a flat surface, but of course if you're facing up-hill, it will hit much lower below stage than usual. D-smash on the other hand will adjust where it hits in relation to the surface it is used on (except on extreme slopes; it has a limit to how far it will adjust), so on Lylat it will always hit at the same distance from the ground regardless of the slope.
Because characters hanging on ledges behave as if they were hanging on a ledge attached to a flat surface, D-smash will actually hit 'lower' in relation to them, even though it is hitting at the same distance away from the line of the stage.
Because the outer edges of Lylat are at an angle, the tilting of the stage will never actually fully compensate for it and so you'll never actually be able to take advantage of F-tilt hitting lower than usual. At best the outer edges of the stage will always have the slightest slant downwards, even when the stage is fully tilted the other way.
With that said, against a recovering Cloud on Lylat, you'll probably want to favour either the first or second hit of D-smash except when the stage is tilted all the way up; only then will F-tilt hit lower than D-smash as usual.

Very interesting info. Actually Fox, would it make sense to put this Lylat information in a more general thread? This clearly applies to Link on Lylat in general as opposed to just the Cloud matchup.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Very interesting info. Actually Fox, would it make sense to put this Lylat information in a more general thread? This clearly applies to Link on Lylat in general as opposed to just the Cloud matchup.

You're quite right. I was thinking the same thing when I wrote it but I never got around to fixing it. I'll revive the stage discussion thread.

 

[Stryker95]

Patch 1.1.6
Options Out of Shield for Cloud MU:
For data on shields I used this document by LordWilliam1234 and looked at the advantage drop and advantage out of shield (I called the disadvantage drop and disadvantage out of shield so I don’t have to deal with negative numbers). I tested every move on shield to test if they pushed Link away or how well they could space and then tested what options we had that could still reach.
Link’s OOS:

Spoiler: Link's OOS

Jump cancelled Up-B- 8 frame start up

Jump cancelled U-Smash- 10 frame start up

Shield Grab- 10 frame start up (12 frame grab start up, 3 frame spot dodge start up for Cloud, keep in mind that the tether will take longer to grab if the opponent is further away)

Jab- 14 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 7 frame jab)

U-Tilt- 15 (7 frame shield drop, 8 frame start up)

D-Smash- 16 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 9 frame start up)

D-Tilt- 18 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 11 frame start up)

F-Tilt- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up) Can take a few frames longer as F-Tilt has hitboxes can hit later depending on when the Master Sword connects.

F-Smash- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up)

Dash Attack- 28 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 1 frame to start dash, 20 frame start up) Can take a few frames longer as F-Tilt has hitboxes can hit later depending on when the Master Sword connects.

Bomb throw- 8 frame start up (7 frames start up, 1 frame before blast)
Note on bombs: Bombs will connect even if enemy is right in your face. They come out faster than grab, but while both are active (tether and bomb moving through the air) tether moves faster than a bomb.

Some abbreviations (because I don’t want to write them out all the time):

Spoiler

DD: Disadvantage drop- this means how many frames Link has to punish Cloud after dropping shield first.
For example, Link has a jab with a 7 frame start up. If the DD of a move is 7 or more, Link can punish Cloud with this move.

DO: Disadvantage out of shield- this means how many frames Link has to punish Cloud using a direct OOS, like grab or jump cancelled moves.
For example, Up-B OOS has an 8 frame start-up, so if the DO is 8 or more, than Up-B OOS will punish.

I tested this in training mode 1/4 speed hold L, so these are frame perfect, keep that in mind when deciding what you want to use for your punish. I list all possible punishes considering good spacing and the fact that some moves push Link away, making some options that are fast enough not an option, I will point these out as they come.

If I state something as “perfect spacing” I mean Cloud hitting the edge of shield, meaning he would have whiffed entirely if Link was not shielding.

"Good spacing" means Cloud would barely hit Link if Link was not shielding.

"Bad spacing" means Cloud and Link are very close together.

Next are Cloud’s moves:

Spoiler: Jab

Jab (1): DD: 15, DO: 22
At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, F-Smash, D-Tilt, and D-Smash can punish. (D-Smash can go under Clouds front foot, but if Link is a few frames late he can hit Cloud’s foot as it returns to the ground)

At good spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, F-Smash, D-Tilt, Up-B, U-Tilt, U-Smash, and D-Smash can punish. (D-Smash can always punish as it will hit Cloud’s back foot)

Jab (2): DD: 17, DO: 24
At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, F-Smash, D-Tilt, F-Tilt, Up-B, D-Smash, and U-Smash can punish. (If late, U-Smash will not reach Cloud. If done on time Link will hit Cloud’s knee on the way down)

At good spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, F-Smash, F-Tilt, D-Tilt, Up-B, U-Tilt, U-Smash, and D-Smash can punish.

Jab (3): DD: 20, DO: 27
At any spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, F-Smash, F-Tilt, D-Tilt, Up-B, U-Tilt, U-Smash, and D-Smash can punish.

Dash Attack will not punish as Cloud can shield it or if he does nothing Link will jump over Cloud.

Spoiler: F-Tilt

F-Tilt: DD: 11 DO: 18
At perfect spacing Grab and Bomb will punish.

At good spacing Grab, D-Tilt, Jab, D-Smash and Bomb will punish.

At bad spacing Grab D-Tilt, Jab, D-Smash, U-Smash, U-Tilt, U-B and Bomb will punish.

Spoiler: D-Tilt

D-Tilt: DD: 20 DO: 27
When the end of the hit box hits Link’s shield, meaning he is farthest away from Link as possible and has the most time to recover.

Spoiler: Situation 1

Grab, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, U-Tilt, U-Smash, and Up-B will punish. Cloud can shield Dash Attack and F-Tilt. F-Smash will go over Cloud’s head. Bomb will go over Cloud’s head unless Link drops shield and then throws it.

Spoiler: Situation 2

2 Grab, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, U-Tilt, U-Smash, F-Tilt and Up-B will punish. First hit of Up-B may go over Cloud’s head but next hit will connect before Cloud can shield. Dash Attack, F-Smash, and Bomb will all go over Cloud’s head.

Spoiler: Situation 3

3 Turnaround Grab, Turnaround Jab, Turnaround D-Tilt, Turnaround D-Smash (second hit will not connect as Cloud can perfect shield), U-Tilt, U-Smash, Turnaround F-Tilt, Turnaround Bomb, Turnaround F-Smash and Up-B will punish.

Spoiler: Situation 4

4 Turnaround Grab, Turnaround Jab, Turnaround F-Tilt, Turnaround F-Smash, Turnaround D-Tilt, Turnaround D-Smash, and Up-B will punish.

Spoiler: U-Tilt

U-Tilt: DD: 13 DO: 20
Cloud’s U-Tilt has a hitbox that comes out behind him, like Link’s. If this hits, no matter the spacing, Grab, Bomb, Up-B, U-Smash, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, and U-Tilt will punish.

If the front hit connects spacing perfectly then Grab, Bomb, Up-B, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, and will punish.

If the front hit connects with good spacing then Grab, Bomb, Up-B, U-Smash, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, and U-Tilt will punish.

Spoiler: Dash Attack

Dash Attack: DD: 21 DO: 28
If Cloud does his Dash Attack and goes through Link then Up-B, U-Tilt, U-Smash, Turnaround Grab, Turnaround Jab, Turnaround F-Tilt, Turnaround F-Smash, Turnaround D-Tilt, Turnaround D-Smash and 2nd hit D-Smash and Turnaround Bomb will punish.

If Cloud ends up in front of Link and has perfect spacing (meaning he ends up as far away as possible from Link) Grab, Bomb, Jab, Up-B, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, and F-Smash will punish.

With good spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, Up-B, U-Smash, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, and F-Smash will punish.

Spoiler: F-Smash

F-Smash: DD: 19 DO: 26
At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, and Walk-up Jab will punish.

At bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, U-Tilt, U-Smash, F-Tilt, F-Smash, and Up-B will punish.

Spoiler: D-Smash

D-Smash: DD: 30/11 DO: 37/18 (Second number is for second hit)

1st hit: At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, Walk-Up Jab, Walk-Up D-Tilt, Walk-Up D-Smash, Dash Attack, Walk-Up F-Tilt, Walk-Up F-Smash, Walk-Up Up-B, Walk-Up U-Tilt, and Walk-Up U-Smash will punish.

At good spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, Dash Attack, F-Tilt, F-Smash, Walk-Up Up-B, Walk-Up U-Tilt, and Walk-Up U-Smash will punish.

At bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, Dash Attack, F-Tilt, F-Smash, Up-B, U-Tilt, and U-Smash will punish.

2nd hit: At any spacing Grab and Bomb will punish.

At bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, and Up-B will punish.

Spoiler: Up-Smash

Up-Smash: DD: 15 DO: 22
Cloud facing any direction: At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, and D-Smash will punish.

At good spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, Up-B, and D-Smash will punish.

At bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, Up-B, U-Tilt, U-Smash and D-Smash will punish.

Aerials: This is tricky. Aerials will vary because of when they hit the shield (on top, the middle, etc.), sweetspot or sourspot, autocancelling, or if the opponent screws up or not. I will just place the DD and DO as well as landing lag and auto-cancels at the end of moves. (Note: If auto cancelled, Cloud suffers only 4 frames of landing lag.)

Spoiler: Nair

Nair: DD: 2 DO: 9 Landing lag: 10 Auto-cancel: 31>
Bomb and Up-B may punish.

Spoiler: Fair

Fair: DD: 1/2 DO 8/9. (Second number is for weak hit) Landing Lag: 10 Auto-cancel: 11>
Both hits: Bomb and Up-B may punish.

Spoiler: Bair

Bair: DD: -2 DO: 5 Landing lag: 12 Auto-cancel: 31>
Can’t punish if done correctly.

Spoiler: Dair

Dair: DD: 9/13 DO: 16/20 (Second number is for weak hit) Landing lag: 30 Auto-cancel: 53>
Both hits: Up-B, Grab, Bomb, U-Smash, Jab, U-Tilt may punish.

Spoiler: Upair

Upair: DD: 0 DO: 7 Landing Lag: 21 Auto-Cancel: 47>
Can’t punish if done correctly.

Specials

Spoiler: Blade Beam (Neutral B)

Blade Beam: DD: 27 DO: 34
Blade Beam pushes Link a very small distance, so if Link is in range of hitting Cloud with a move before his shield is hit, he can punish with that move after the Beam hits.

At max grab range, Grab and Bomb may still punish as well as Dash Attack. Dash Attack can punish very slightly past grab range.

Spoiler: Limit Blade Beam

Limit Blade Beam: DD: 1 DO: 8
With bad spacing Up-B can punish. If Link lets go of shield any time during the active frames, the shield will drop and Link will get hit as the shield stun is not enough to keep Link in shield. Link can safely let go of shield as soon as the largest (and last) explosion occurs.

Spoiler: Standard Explosion

Spoiler: Large Explosion

Spoiler: Cross Slash (Side B)

Cross Slash 1: DD: 19 DO: 26
At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, Walk-Up Jab, F-Tilt, and F-Smash will punish.

At good spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, F-Smash, and Up-B will punish.

At bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, F-Smash, U-Tilt, U-Smash, and Up-B will punish.

Cross Slash 2: DD: 19 DO: 26
At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, and F-Smash will punish.

At good spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, F-Smash, and Up-B will punish.

At bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, F-Smash, U-Tilt, U-Smash, and Up-B will punish.

Cross Slash 3: DD: 18 DO: 25
At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, Walk-Up F-Tilt, Walk-Up Jab, Walk-Up D-Tilt, Walk-Up D-Smash, Walk-Up Up-B, and F-Smash will punish. The first two hits of Cross Slash 3 will push Link far enough away where the third hit will not hit Link’s shield, making many of these possible. Dash Attack may also punish but if done too early Link will get hit.

At good spacing Grab, Bomb, and F-Smash will punish.

At bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, F-Smash, U-Tilt, U-Smash, and Up-B will punish.

Spoiler: Limit Cross Slash

Limit Cross Slash: DD: 8 DO: 15
Limit Cross Slash will push Link far enough away where the last part of the move will not hit. So at perfect or good spacing (with the first hit of the move hitting Link's shield) Grab, Bomb, and Walk-Up Jab will punish. (Example)

At bad spacing, Grab, Bomb, Jab, Up-B, U-Tilt, and U-Smash will punish.

Spoiler: Finishing Touch (Down B)

Finishing Touch: DD: 54 DO: 61
Anything can punish.

Spoiler: Climhazzard (Up-B)

Climhazzard: Anything can punish.

Climhazzard Follow-up: DD: 29 DO: 36
Anything can punish.

Spoiler: Limit Climhazzard (Up-B)

Limit Climhazzard: Anything can punish.

 

[SalemtheEngineer]

The way I deal with Cloud's Limit Beam is also by bombs. However when on the ground I set up traps with the bomb (meaning I throw them but they stay on the ground and don't explode unless in contact with an attack). So when he uses his Limit Beam is hits the grounded bomb and doesn't get far.

I actually ticked off a lot of Cloud players by doing this.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Anyways, now that it's been a whole month, I feel like there's some more to add to the matchup.

If Cloud has limit and you're near kill %, they are likely going to use Limit Cross Slash. Shielding this attack (or baiting the Cloud to use it incorrectly) are really the ways to go about this. Getting stuck offstage while the Cloud has limit just sucks in general because of this attack. Cloud can basically cover every ledge option with this attack on reaction.

He can try to stage spike you with Limit Cross Slash, or attack near the edge to cover jump, attack, and normal getup. He'll have to turn around for roll. Limit Cross Slash is really quick (comes out on frame 10, Cloud's invincible from frame 6 iirc) and has very little end lag.

If you have enough time to chase Cloud off the edge when trying to recover (like with a bomb or boomerang), I feel like it's worth doing. Having a bomb in hand if you're hanging on the ledge might work if you can get it to explode while near Cloud (like rolling through him).

 

[Natmax]

Anyways, now that it's been a whole month, I feel like there's some more to add to the matchup.

If Cloud has limit and you're near kill %, they are likely going to use Limit Cross Slash. Shielding this attack (or baiting the Cloud to use it incorrectly) are really the ways to go about this. Getting stuck offstage while the Cloud has limit just sucks in general because of this attack. Cloud can basically cover every ledge option with this attack on reaction.

He can try to stage spike you with Limit Cross Slash, or attack near the edge to cover jump, attack, and normal getup. He'll have to turn around for roll. Limit Cross Slash is really quick (comes out on frame 10, Cloud's invincible from frame 6 iirc) and has very little end lag.

If you have enough time to chase Cloud off the edge when trying to recover (like with a bomb or boomerang), I feel like it's worth doing. Having a bomb in hand if you're hanging on the ledge might work if you can get it to explode while near Cloud (like rolling through him).

I just want to note that while shielding cross slash is certainly a good option, it is also a dangerous one. I have lost tournament sets from getting shield poked by cross-slash--it does massive shield damage. The shield damage itself is dangerous as well, in my experience you can't really shield for the next few seconds for fear of shield break, which cloud will attempt to take advantage of.

On another topic, I think we can all agree that cloud's recovery is exploitable, but I'm curious as to what people think are the best options in particular. Unknown mentioned downward angled boomerang. Foxy was talking about Dsmash and Ftilt on stage, what do people think about dropzone nair/fair/dair? z-dropping bombs? Any other options?

 

[ronniem3]

Should read the writeup posted by M2K, starting at line 27: http://pastebin.com/v9G29KnL.

An example of this in a match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2LRDAQr6VY&feature=youtu.be&t=11m01s

I usually jump and fall within range of a double jump nair to pressure. Trades can happen, so be aware you may have to tech if there's a chance of being stage spiked.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Should read the writeup posted by M2K, starting at line 27: http://pastebin.com/v9G29KnL.

An example of this in a match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2LRDAQr6VY&feature=youtu.be&t=11m01s

I usually jump and fall within range of a double jump nair to pressure. Trades can happen, so be aware you may have to tech if there's a chance of being stage spiked.

Hm, in theory you could throw a boomerang up towards the cloud to force him to react right? You'd probably want a bomb in hand to make sure you can make it back, but that then limits you to boomerang, arrow, Up-B or throwing away the bomb.

 

[Derpnaster]

Double bombs offstage is one way I do it. Another is actually a normal Gale away from stage while the Cloud recovers possibly forcing an airdodge. a quick uncharged bow also works. The big thing with how I edgeguard is that I play against very aggressive players so they almost always will try to kill, I've tailored my skill to that. In reality I only want on weak it to kill the second jump, and if they dodge gale the first time when it comes back they have the risk of getting pulled under the stage by it's wind, if the bombs are out they can eat jumps and Up b, even a Limit one I've learned, which makes the cloud desperate.

 

[Natmax]

So in terms of limit, is the only option really just to let Cloud charge it like unknown mentioned? I've found in bracket that this MU is not terrible, but I started playing online recently and I'm really struggling with Cloud just camping platform and charging limit. Like Unknown said, charging in often does not go well. What mid range options can you use to punish platform camping? I find every option I try just gets shielded. Boomerang, arrow, bomb, and since he's on a platform if I try to jump up and grab I just get hit. Should I just lay down some bombs and wait or something? sharking with fair doesn't seem like an awful option, but in some cases it can be punished

 

[Bigbomb2]

For the pretty decent Cloud I go against frequently, I've basically stopped trying to go for him when he platform camps his limit charging if he's already partway fully charged. If he just started charging I may Fair at him but otherwise I'll just be setting myself up for pain. Using projectiles for pressure still isn't a bad idea; it's just actually going for him tends to get me punished.
I'm starting to play much more patient vs. Cloud, and learning to respect his auto canceled aerials. I'm a sucker for that Dair for some reason

 

[ZSaberLink]

So in terms of limit, is the only option really just to let Cloud charge it like unknown mentioned? I've found in bracket that this MU is not terrible, but I started playing online recently and I'm really struggling with Cloud just camping platform and charging limit. Like Unknown said, charging in often does not go well. What mid range options can you use to punish platform camping? I find every option I try just gets shielded. Boomerang, arrow, bomb, and since he's on a platform if I try to jump up and grab I just get hit. Should I just lay down some bombs and wait or something? sharking with fair doesn't seem like an awful option, but in some cases it can be punished

If you get both hits of Fair while the Cloud is platform camping, it'd at least do a good bit of shield damage. Just make sure you land safely. I think about 2 Fairs would get pretty close to breaking the opponent's shield. Also soft throw a bomb near the Cloud. If he picks it up you now can expect either a bomb or a special. If he just leaves it there, you get a shield opportunity.