MU Chart v3

clowsui

Brawl Backroom Member
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#1
Hey everyone, I’m clowsui and will be leading your character’s panel for the BBR Match-Up Chart v3. The thread detailing panel leaders, as well as other various information about the project, can be found here.

The current panelists for this panel are:
M@V, DEHF


We are limited to five panelists for this project, and are looking for active and knowledgeable members of the character community to help fill our remaining openings. If you would like to join the panel for this character, please make a post demonstrating your interest in this thread, along with what would make you a desirable panelist. Keep in mind that debating skills are important for all panel members, and those with poor behavior will be ejected from the project if complaints arise.


If you have any questions or concerns regarding this panel or its activities, feel free to post them in this thread. You may also PM me or Ish if you would rather speak to one of us privately. Panelist selections will be finalized in a week or two, at which point we will begin discussing which match-ups to change in the panelist subforum.

I'm not going to lie: right now I very much favor including Kismet and Keitaro on the project. However, if they do NOT post here and they DON'T think that they can be active, then obviously I'm going to choose among the candidates here.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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#2
I would be interested in helping.

I understand the character and how he operates. I understand the cast and have significant experience against the majority of it on top of following other players.

I'm well traveled and that's not stopping anytime soon. That adds to the diversity I've seen first hand and the opportunities I've had to talk with high level players about Falco, his match-ups, and the game itself.

I understand how debate and discussion work and enjoy both. I can both work with and deal with other people in a serious setting (including acknowledging where I'm incorrect and not moving where I'm not after looking at what's been presented). I can abide by a ruling where I'm outvoted.

I'm a big proponent of getting useful information into the hands of the community, so I would like to be involved.

/job application voice
 

kismet2

Smash Ace
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#3
I wouldn't be the greatest panelist for falco but I'm pretty knowledgeable of falco's strategies, options/tools, and how they should be used in most of his matchups. Idk how I can demonstrate it but trust me when I say that I know alot about this character XD
 

clowsui

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#4
@Ryker and all other non-Kismet/Keitaro people - I just put this in the OP, but here it is anyways:

I'm not going to lie. Right now I very much favor including Kismet and Keitaro on the project. However, if they do NOT post here and they DON'T think that they can be ACTIVE, then obviously I'm going to choose among the candidates here.
 

Marcbri

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#8
Already posted in the BBR but w/e.

I can help if needed, done this before, have plenty of time atm and imo I know this character better than almost anyone.

Sup Xonar
 
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#10
The gentleman's club continues.

You should use this thread in future as an update thread. I take it the match-up discussions will be concluded behind closed doors which means none of us will have access to the opinions and reasoning you guys get during the discussions.

I am more than convinced that it will mostly be a polling of a person's feeling regarding a match-up rather than much of a debate of sorts among all of you and achieve a number that way.

But in the off chance you guys try summarizing the match-ups at all or go into specifics maybe you could try highlighting some details of those discussions. Keep it in quotes without being sourced would be enough I believe.
 

DJ Arcatek

Smash Champion
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#11
Hi, I'm interested in joining this.


For those of you who may not know me by now, I'm DJ Jack, a Falco from Florida. At the moment, I'm currently ranked 7th on the Power Rankings and arguably the best Falco in the state. Taking into account how strong of a state FL is and how many top players reside here, you would agree that I've accomplished more than just a minor feat.

I've traveled a good amount in and out of state and have participated in a plethora of tournaments; often placing higher than the average player. I've played many players and characters, so I know a thing or two about character match ups.

When it comes to Falco, I've been using the character since 2008 and I've basically come to grips on the majority of his basics and fundamentals and I feel like I have a great understanding of how he works. That's not to say, of course, that I'm perfect when it comes to using him, but for the most part, I know what to do in certain situations.

I will come out and say that I'm probably not the best at debating, but if I feel strongly towards something, I'll try my best to back up my claim. If I feel like I'm in the wrong and definitely in the minority vote, I'll know when to abstain from speaking any further to prevent outlandish arguments and misunderstandings.


All in all, I feel like I'd make a good addition to the panel and I'm sure I won't disappoint.
 

1PokeMastr

Smash Champion
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Messages
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#12
I'll toss myself into the ring.
Falco has been my main since 2009. I haven't been able to travel much ( Age[ Parents ]/ No Passport ), but I'm currently ranked #6 in my region and I'm also arguably the best Falco in my Province. I do have experience in quite a bit of Mu's and against some top players like Mr.R/ Dabuz/ Will. I'm very well associated with Falco's moveset and what can/ can not be be done. I'm also highly active around here and in my Tournament scene ( I've been to every Showdown In Downtown; SiD 10 was 6 days ago ). I think I'd be excellent for Falco on the BBR Chart.

I am very good at debating, whilst being calm and organized in what I say.
 

clowsui

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#14
Keitaro hasn't responded to anything

So far it's me, M@v, DEHF, Kismet, so I'm allowed to accept one more.

I think DJ Jack will be my last panelist to round out the selection.

Seeing as Kismet's activity on the boards is somewhat shoddy, if he is inconsistent w his posting activity I'll be sure to tag Poke in if that's the case.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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#16
Keitaro hasn't responded to anything

So far it's me, M@v, DEHF, Kismet, so I'm allowed to accept one more.

I think DJ Jack will be my last panelist to round out the selection.

Seeing as Kismet's activity on the boards is somewhat shoddy, if he is inconsistent w his posting activity I'll be sure to tag Poke in if that's the case.
you break my heart :(
 

clowsui

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#17
I'm bored, and since it's allowed, everyone post what you think should happen to (y)our MUs!

Don't post arguments/reasoning/etc because it doesn't matter and all discussion is supposed to happen in private. But I welcome everyone, panel or not, to post your opinions of Falco's MUs.
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

PhD; Smash Community Studies
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#19
It's been a while since I posted in the Falco boards. Most of you probably have no clue who I am lol. Anyway, MU numbers:

Meta Knight 0/-1
Olimar 0/+1
Diddy Kong 0/-1
Ice Climbers -2/-3
Snake +1
Falco +/-4
Marth 0/+1
Pikachu -2/-1 (I'm very optimistic about this MU)
Wario 0/+1
Zero Suit Samus +1
Lucario +1
King Dedede +2
Toon Link +1
Wolf 0/+1
Mr. Game & Watch +2
Fox +1
Peach +2
Pit 0/+1
R.O.B. +2
Kirby -1
Sheilda 0/+1
Sonic +1/+2
Donkey Kong +2
Ike +2
Sheik 0/+1
Yoshi +2
Ness 0
Pokémon Trainer +1
Luigi +2
Lucas 0/+1
Mario +2
Samus +3
Bowser +3
Captain Falcon +2
Jigglypuff +2
Link +4
Zelda +2/+3
Ganondorf +4

Yep.
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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#21
If Mewtwo was in this game what do you guys think the matchup would be?
If he was in exactly like he was in Melee? idk what he would be like (weights and stuff). Would we be able to CG him? Would he be able to CG us? How easy would his Nair be to SDI?

The MU could be anywhere from even to +2/3 depending.

edit: did you ask that because of my avatar?
 

-DR3W-

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#22
If he was in exactly like he was in Melee? idk what he would be like (weights and stuff). Would we be able to CG him? Would he be able to CG us? How easy would his Nair be to SDI?

The MU could be anywhere from even to +2/3 depending.

edit: did you ask that because of my avatar?
All those answers are for your imagination to create and figure out.

And I don't know. Probably. lol
 

1PokeMastr

Smash Champion
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Dec 10, 2009
Messages
2,252
#26
Falco vs Ness is either +1 Falco or +2.
I'm leaning toward +1 based off experience and videos that I've seen.

It's not godly terrible for Ness.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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#28
I'm bored, and since it's allowed, everyone post what you think should happen to (y)our MUs!

Don't post arguments/reasoning/etc because it doesn't matter and all discussion is supposed to happen in private. But I welcome everyone, panel or not, to post your opinions of Falco's MUs.
Sure, why not.

:Falco:
-2 - :pikachu2::popo:
-1 - :metaknight:
0 - :falco::marth::wolf::squirtle:
1 - :diddy::snake::wario::lucario::toonlink::fox:
:sheilda::sheik:
2 - :olimar::dedede::zerosuitsamus::gw::peach::rob:
:kirby2::sonic::dk2::ike::yoshi2::ness2:
:pt::charizard::luigi2::lucas:
3 - :mario2::samus2::falcon::jigglypuff::zelda:
4 - :bowser2::link2::ganondorf:


For the record, I can't stand even MUs the majority of the time. I could be argued up a point against Falco in a few of these.
 

DJ Arcatek

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#29
It's better for Ness than most would think. I've played Shaky enough to know it's not EASY by any means. I'm sure Larry would agree. Also, I think Marth is +1 for Marth and it's -1 for Wolf @ Ryker's list. Some could even argue that vs Fox and Wario is even. Everything else seems fairly accurate.
 

teluoborg

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#31
Bowser is definitely not a +4.
Even though he is a world class sandbag he still has his side B, his up B and his GRs that are all very relevant in the matchup.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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#32
He feels sandbaggy enough to me. His UpB is an absolutely amazing OoS option and reversal, but if you aren't jabbing shields, then I don't see it being used to realistically be stopping your CQC when CQC is required. I don't see how his sideB is relevant at all in this MU. It's not like other aerial command grabs (Like Wario, Kirby, D3, Yoshi) in that it's attached to a Bowser that is currenty stuck playing against Falco. You shouldn't be getting hit outside of getting HEAVILY mind gamed or being beaten in the MU mentally to the point where you're playing scared of Bowser, unless he can get it out of GR, which I'm unsure of. Spekaing of his GR, it should be similarly irrelevant because it requires Falco getting grabbed by Bowser. Why are you shielding against this guy?

And SideB or UpB, what happens? You're put in the air above Bowser. While not ideal, you still don't have to fear much. His ability to follow up on that is subpar.

Shoot at him and shoot at him and shoot at him and he has to approach through lasers in a limiting way. when he finally does get close, grab him and throw him around a little, jab him or tilt him or aerial him, or phantasm. All three can lead to regaining space to shoot some more.

:phone:

:phone:
 

DEHF

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#33
It's better for Ness than most would think. I've played Shaky enough to know it's not EASY by any means. I'm sure Larry would agree. Also, I think Marth is +1 for Marth and it's -1 for Wolf @ Ryker's list. Some could even argue that vs Fox and Wario is even. Everything else seems fairly accurate.
I still believe Ness vs Falco is probably +2. I could see it being +1, but I'm leaning more towards +2. Hopefully I can play Fow's Ness soon and pick apart that match up more!
 

#HBC | Ryker

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#34
It's better for Ness than most would think. I've played Shaky enough to know it's not EASY by any means. I'm sure Larry would agree. Also, I think Marth is +1 for Marth and it's -1 for Wolf @ Ryker's list. Some could even argue that vs Fox and Wario is even. Everything else seems fairly accurate.
Played Shaky, but I dunno about Ness. I'd defer there so long as you're not trying to call it even or something similar.

I agree on Marth. I put him at even because I, personally, don't preform well in the Marth MU and didn't want to let it get out of hand. It's arguable either way, but I feel that it's easier for Marth to capitalize on the zones he beats Falco in. The degree to which that affects the MU is arguable.

I dunno about Wolf being -1. Where's the nod in the MU coming from to you?

Wario I disagree with. Falco advantage, not a major advantage. I've played this thing back and forth since I started this game since my region is crawling with them. It's not like I'm beating Rflex, but I just see him outplaying me because my tools seem better.





I just see Falco underrated constantly and that's not done here.
 

teluoborg

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#35
lots of stuff on Bowser
No, you can't go ahead and say "Falco should'nt attack Bowser's shield", "Falco shouldn't get hit by side B" or "Falco shouldn't be sheilding", that's just bad theorycrafting.

Bowser's up B is relevant because Falco lacks disjoint, it doesn't need to be done oos to interrupt strings and frame traps. Also it kills.

Side B is relevant because it's a falling air grab with huge range and no landing lag. Also it kills.

Grab releases are relevant because they do a lot of damage and can also kill.

So yeah imo this matchup is close to +2 because Bowser can capitalize on Falco's mistakes and he has multiple ways to kill, with 2 of them that go through shields.

At least there's no reason to put him in the same bag as Ganon and Link.
 

PMC66

Smash Journeyman
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#37
Sure, why not.

:Falco:
-2 - :pikachu2::popo:
-1 - :metaknight:
0 - :falco::marth::wolf::squirtle:
1 - :diddy::snake::wario::lucario::toonlink::fox:
:sheilda::sheik:
2 - :olimar::dedede::zerosuitsamus::gw::peach::rob:
:kirby2::sonic::dk2::ike::yoshi2::ness2:
:pt::charizard::luigi2::lucas:
3 - :mario2::samus2::falcon::jigglypuff::zelda:
4 - :bowser2::link2::ganondorf:


For the record, I can't stand even MUs the majority of the time. I could be argued up a point against Falco in a few of these.
This right here is one of the best Falco MU lists i've ever seen good **** son only thing i'd change is Diddy, Luc and Fox to 0. But this is a fantastic list Chuck Norris would aprove xD.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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#38
No, you can't go ahead and say "Falco should'nt attack Bowser's shield", "Falco shouldn't get hit by side B" or "Falco shouldn't be sheilding", that's just bad theorycrafting.

Bowser's up B is relevant because Falco lacks disjoint, it doesn't need to be done oos to interrupt strings and frame traps. Also it kills.

Side B is relevant because it's a falling air grab with huge range and no landing lag. Also it kills.

Grab releases are relevant because they do a lot of damage and can also kill.

So yeah imo this matchup is close to +2 because Bowser can capitalize on Falco's mistakes and he has multiple ways to kill, with 2 of them that go through shields.

At least there's no reason to put him in the same bag as Ganon and Link.
You theory craft one side.

Bowser's UpB can be used. I've already said it's the most relevant of the things you mentioned. It can be used as a reversal, but Bowser's ability to get to a range where that is relevant and then the reward he gains from a successful attempt are not good. Sure, it can kill, but at what percent with DI?

Falling air grab? Pretty sure I already knew that and I'm pretty sure Falco has no business being hit with it because the angle from which Bowser would have to come with it is so otherwise unthreatening. Throw out an Utilt, Nair, Bair, Dair, USmash, or just leave the situation with a roll/phantasm.

Grab release shenanigans still come from a grab, even if they can kill. So tell me where the grab comes from and then you can call it relevant. It's like saying Ike beasts Wario because of his buffered pivot grab realease chain grab infinite (it's a hyperbole because Bowser's, while largely not a factor, is more practical, although the same concept applies in that it doesn't matter if you can't do it). Show me where the grabs come from for it to go from "largely irrelevant" to "MU defining."

All three of those options seem all but eliminated due to Bowser's inability to get through a wall of lasers without coming in on Falco's terms allowing the bird to hit the turtle or leave and shoot at him some more.

I'm not being an *** here, I just don't see it and I'm asking you to explain. You can tell me it exists, but that doesn't make it practical. Especially when all my experience from seeing/playing it says otherwise.

tl;dr

How does Bowser get close enough to Falco AND on the ground so that he can go for grab/UpB without Falco grabbing/hitting/leaving Bowser? In the same vein, how does he get in a position to make his falling air grab relevant? What else does he threaten with from that position to make it not extremely telegraphed and how does he get to that position?
 
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