MU Chart v3 - Bowser's Panel

[Uncle]

You all know who I am, and I know who you all are. The denizens of the Bowser boards are already well-acquainted with each other, so let's cut to the chase, shall we?

Panels for the next version of the BBR's MU chart are being assembled right now, and we need a strong group of dudes to represent the Koopa King. Our boy Zigsta was originally going to lead this panel, but his recent retirement left a void that needed to be filled. I shall be the man to fill that void, so say hello to your new leader.

I may not be the best Bowser player by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm more than confident in my ability to lead, organize, and talk about Bowser's MUs. This is nowhere near a one-man show, though. I want the best team of active Bowser minds I can assemble standing with me in this endeavor. So far, I have..........

Myself
Limit
MrEh
Z'zgashi

All three of these panelists I have chosen are more than suitable for the job, but there's an opening for one more person...........

Ideally, I'd have KingKong be the 5th person, but he hasn't responded to my PM yet, so he's unconfirmed at this point. In the event that there is an opening (or more, if any of my current panelists need to back out), please post here if you are interested in joining the panel. Candidates need........

1. To be knowledgeable about Bowser, preferably through tournament experience
2. To be active on SWF
3. To be capable of good, civil debate

If you have all three of those traits, then you're probably a bad enough dude to rescue the president be on the panel.

UPDATE (November 14): Here is the current status of the panel.

Uncle (Panel Leader)
Limit
MrEh
Z'zgashi
Seagull Joe

Backup Panelists: Player-1, Phiddlesticks (unconfirmed)

 

[Player-1]

I play bowser a lot and have some results with him choose me :3

 

[Cassius.]

I can only think of KingKong that would be suitable honestly

we can always go with ol'faithful Flayl. He's still really knowledgeable about Bowser but it all depends on how he feels. P-1 does play Bowser and he is pretty good so I wouldn't shoot him down.

idk, anyone can fit really.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I'm better than all the above barring the veterans.

 

[Uncle]

P-1, Vex, Seagull, and NickRiddle would all be viable choices, especially Vex, since he was basically one of the founding fathers of Bowser's metagame in North America.

The question is, how many of them are still interested in discussing Bowser matters?

 

[Cassius.]

have you actually asked them?

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Wait, what.
Since when does Player 1 main Bowser?

 

[Cassius.]

he doesn't main bowser. you don't have to main the character to be considered for a panel.

usually if the character is lacking in specific players that can offer something significant to the panel, they turn to proficient players of the character. this wouldn't be the first time we'd have to resort to someone who doesn't main bowser lol

 

[Uncle]

Yeah, Limit, I've contacted them via PM.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I have a pretty good Bopwser and isnt afrain of anyting.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'd like to join the panel. Just got the PM.

Version 2.0:

-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

Version 3.0 (My opinion):

-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

Changes: is definitely a -1 not a +1. We don't lose to -2...-1 is more reasonable. should be +1. should be 0. should be 0. should be 0. might be -3.

 

[Cassius.]

PT is at zero, lol.

That list seems pretty solid, I really feel like disagreeing with your opinion on Lucas but Mekos is in your area so who knows what kind of **** you've been dealing with.

I forgot how Olimar became a -2 anyway, I think it was left up for voting or something, I have no idea.

 

[Seagull Joe]

PT is at zero, lol.

That list seems pretty solid, I really feel like disagreeing with your opinion on Lucas but Mekos is in your area so who knows what kind of **** you've been dealing with.

I forgot how Olimar became a -2 anyway, I think it was left up for voting or something, I have no idea.

isn't currently 0. I accidentally changed the version 2.0 when I edited to change that. is currently -1.

I deal with Pink Fresh more then Mekos. I don't see how we could possibly have an advantage on such an agile character. We can do a lot with a grab, but it's so hard to grab as .

 

[Cassius.]

ohh word. I knew there was some Lucas in your area! Isn't mekos from NC or something? mehhhh whatever they're both nasty with Lucas anyway.

I definitely see the argument, I'm just too optimistic with Bowser...no one is worse in that department than KingKong though ahahaha

but seriously that list is solid, I'm actually excited to see someone who didn't mark bowser down that much.

who ever we pick for the panel though will have to be ready for everyone to get their revenge on us, especially those whose matchups got voted in our favor. -_-

i also told NOID that i'd be back next panel to fight for bowser vs samus to be -1 but i'm not in the mood :/

 

[Player-1]

Vex would be a great choice if he'd be active in it, KingKong too

 

[Seagull Joe]

Vex and KingKong are better then me, but I'm the best candidate after those 2.

 

[Cassius.]

Vex would reply every so often but I don't think he really cares for Bowser haha he just uses him for ****s and giggles.

KingKong has very very strong opinions that are highly valued but he posts just about as often as he changes his underwear (...)

but yeah. We gotta get Wingull Joe in there.

 

[Player-1]

my bowser>seagull's


he's too scared to face me at waba

 

[Uncle]

Mekos lives in my state, but he rarely comes out to our locals and even when he does, I never get to face him in bracket, lol. I have defeated every single Lucas main in NC except for him, so I've always been hungry to face a topnotch Lucas. I personally think the MU is even, but -1 wouldn't feel outlandish to me. I always thought it was completely weird how the previous chart had us +1ing him. The extra frames we get on grab release only give us leniency on our followups, not a license to **** like in the Marth/Lucas MU.

Anyway, that's a overall good-looking MU spread, Joe. I love how you think Peach is a -1, because I've been touting that minority opinion for a long time.

I knew you'd be a good candidate, and not just because I know you in person. It seems that Vex and KK are uninterested (to go along with what Limit just said), so provided that I don't hear a passionate request from one of them, you're in, Joe.

Sorry, Player-1. You're still #3 Diddy to me, though. <3

 

[B!squick]

I always thought the Lucas match-up was slightly in our favor because UpBOoS beats, like, everything he can do. Smart use of that + a couple grabs = game over.

 

[Uncle]

I haven't heard anything from Vex or KK in days, so it seems like they aren't interested for real now. This means that the Bowser panel shall now officially be.......

Uncle
Limit
MrEh
Z'zgashi
Seagull Joe

Looks like a good bunch, if I do say so myself. I think we'll have a nice mix of viewpoints and experiences here.

 

[B!squick]

Does MrEh still play? Don't get me wrong, I have perhaps the most faith in MrEh's ability to talk turkey about the green giant turtle dragon thing out of everyone on that list (not like Bowser's meta has changed since year 1), I just assume he'd have other stuff to do besides talk about Bowser.

Like bringing in the coconut harvest. My Mounds are NOTHING with them!

 

[Cassius.]

We could always consider Phiddlesticks, he came off a hiatus like me and his Bowser has always been solid. He's always had good **** to add also. I actually feel bad for not including him in the first place

 

[Uncle]

If MrEh is too busy/uninterested, then we'll find a replacement for him. I heard he's been busy with school lately and such. He hasn't said anything about being unable to participate yet, but I'll ask him again just to be sure.

Also, Phiddlesticks is actually back?

I would be happy to add him, if he's interested and MrEh needs out. I sent him a PM.

In other news, I'd like to promote Limit to co-leader (if I can), because he deserves it and I saw other panels doing this kind of thing too. It just makes sense.

 

[Uncle]

Are you okay with this, Limit? It's kinda silly of me to forget asking you first.

Also, I'm not even sure I have the power to do this, since all existing "co-leaders" were chosen before the announcement, I believe. I'll ask about it, but only if you accept.

 

[Cassius.]

I dont mind, it's cool. Do what you have to do

 

[Uncle]

On second thought, having two leaders would be kinda redundant. It's not like leaders get more power in the discussions. It's purely an organizational role, so there's no need for more than one.

In other news, MrEh has told me that he WILL be available for the panel, so no backups will be needed. Let's lock it in.

 

[Cassius.]

so...here's the question i've been wondering for a while now:

are we actually looking to change anything in the panel, or will we be hounded for ratio changes throughout the whole process?

i can't really think of anything that i would want changed

 

[Uncle]

so...here's the question i've been wondering for a while now:

are we actually looking to change anything in the panel, or will we be hounded for ratio changes throughout the whole process?

i can't really think of anything that i would want changed

It's a mix of both. If we want any ratios changed, we take it up with the other panels. If the other panels want any ratios changed, they take it up with us. AFAIK, each panel only gets a limited amount of changes to "lobby" for, and that amount hasn't been determined yet.

On that note, I'll give you guys my current MU spread for Bowser, since Joe gave his recently.

-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:

The characters are in no particular order within each MU tier.

Changes
Wolf -1 -> -2
Peach -2 -> -1
Ness -1 -> 0
Lucas +1 -> 0
Ganon +1 -> 0
Jiggs +2 -> +1
Everything else is the same (except soloZelda and soloSheik are removed, only Sheilda remains)

For the most part, the spread is fine. I just think that Bowser is a little overrated against the low-tiers, and a little underrated against Ness/Peach. As for Wolf, he feels approximately as hard as his fellow spacies, and we kinda went into detail on the Wolf board recently.

 

[Cassius.]

I meant because everyone thinks Bowser is bad and will probably try to reverse any and all changes we made positively on the last panel. I know how the process works lol

I personally think Ganon and Jigglypuff are fine as is, Bowser definitely isn't over-rated against either of them. I mean, if you want to be fair we could move Jigglypuff to +1, but in all honesty...I wouldn't be down for that.

There's no MU spread for me to give because there's nothing I would really change. Every match up we're thinking of changing I'm not too experienced on.

 

[Uncle]

Ah, my bad, Limit. I misinterpreted your question. Personally, I predict that only a small number of panels will be coming at us this time, because Bowser's MU spread is already pretty damn accurate and appropriately bleak, lol. As for our end, if all of us are okay with fighting for a particular ratio change, then we'll do it. I just need to hear from everybody, much like I heard from Joe and you just now. With the way things are looking so far, I don't expect us to pursue many changes.

Truth be told, the only ratio changes I feel really compelled to fight for (at the moment) are the Peach, Wolf, and Lucas changes. The other ratio changes I mentioned were "gut picks" more than firm opinions of mine, so they're a low priority for me. I could use some more data/exp on them to solidify my stance. Also, if you guys have any convincing arguments/data to show me, that could also persuade me to support a ratio change.

 

[MrEh]

Peach -2 -> -1
Ness -1 -> 0
Jiggs +2 -> +1

These are the only ones that I might push for.

Like bringing in the coconut harvest. My Mounds are NOTHING with them!

I can do both.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Only changes I would change are:

Peach from -2 to -1
Wolf from -1 to -2
Ness from -1 to 0
Lucas from +1 to 0

Otherwise looks good.

 

[Uncle]

Thanks, guys. Now, we have a fairly good idea of where we stand collectively.

I'll be keeping track of the potential proposals that have at least 3/5 panel support so far.....

-2 to -1
Me, Z'z, MrEh, Joe

-1 to -2
Me, Z'z, Joe, Limit

-1 to 0
Me, Z'z, MrEh

+1 to 0
Me, Z'z, Joe (wants it as -1)

 

[Cassius.]

I'll argue for whatever you guys argue, I just don't have a really strong opinion for either direction, like if it were up to me I would just keep Bowser as is. You guys all know I can make pretty decent arguments lol

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I don't think Wolf is hard unless the player spams smash attacks and the B button.

 

[Cassius.]

Good for you, but those two things do not make the MU worse. That would actually make it easier for Bowser.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Put me on bowser panel I lost to limit once and played flayl for like 5 hours

I therefore know more about bowser than 90% of swf

 

[Flayl]

Yeah, high five!

Which reminds me, if you guys need to test anything I can help with that. Otherwise I'm staying out of it

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Yeah...I don't really expect that to be taken seriously, though. I trust most players in the U.S are decent in the aspect they won't rely on those kind of "tactics" and expect people to actually fall for it.
To be honest, I've had my share of that problem, but yesterday, I just turtled my way with Bowser (something I barely do) and it went REALLY well.