[MU] Charizard

[Stryker95]

Information from the Discord JMU:

Spoiler: Neutral

Neutral:
Aerials
Zard:

Zard NAir on shield: Safe with excellent spacing and FF a few frames before landing out of a SH AC NAir, possible, but not easy. Link can usually shield grab.

FF AC NAir is used to land and is somewhat safer.

BAir safe on shield, but slow startup. Good range.

Zard tail hitbox no rage on the very edge of BF kills at 75% vs Link

3 sweetspot Bairs can break a full shield, as well as 2 sweetspot Bairs and a FB.

SH FAir can AC, safe on shield.

Fair and Nair can SHFF autocancel if he jumps from platform to lower platforms or from lower platforms to ground

DA can be better than FB to catch endlag of projectiles and SH at mid-range due to good dash speed. Not guaranteed even with perfect shield.

Link:

Link FAir safe on shield if spaced or timed right.

Zard can punish SH retreat BAir 1 on shield with DA unless Link DJ. Zard can punish with SH FAir if Link does not space right.

BAir can connect into another BAir or Up-B at lower %s.

NAir can lead to jab or grab at low %s.

Projectiles vs Zard

Links projectiles lose to FB. Bomb can sometimes win, for complicated reasons which take a while to explain. Just ask Foxy. Zards may not go for FB at all; if they do, keep shield as an option a little more than usual.

Tilts:

Zard:

Main neutral tool is jab, frame 4. Can win CQC. Link jab has better range. Zard jab 1 is -15 on shield. Jab 2 is -16. Jab 3 is -22. Can do Jab mixups. (See “combos”)

UTilt can juggle, anti-air. Wings are invulnerable, hitbox begins at frame 9.

Link:

Jab 2 can allow mixups, but Zard can always jump out. Link can predict and jump FAir.

FTilt can be spaced to be safe.

DTilt is safest on shield and has best range. Can combo to FAir at lower %s.

Specials:

Zard:

Flare Blitz can catch rolls, used for reads otherwise. Breaks at over 15%. Link’s DAir (all parts) and Uair can break Flare Blitz because when fresh they do over 15% (15.75%). On shield, easily punishable. Arrow lock. It can land on a platform making it safer, but still unsafe. SH FAir on the platform.

If Link eats a full Rock Smash without perfect shielding it(the big hit and all the smaller ones) there's a window of time where Flare Blitz is a guaranteed shield break. It's not an oppressively big window but it's something to be aware of.

Link: PS projectiles.

Bomb pull is 40 FAF, so easily punishable. Link’s tend to have bad bomb pulls, Zard can punish with FB.

Boomerang can have several angles.

Bombslides allow Link to approach more quickly and allow a bomb to cover that approach. Bombs allow for combos and kills.

If Zard shields grounded Up-B, it no longer has a hitbox that can hurt him, even if the move is still going, allowing more time to punish.


Grabs:
Zard:

Frame 8

Horrible range, if spaced right most of Link’s moves will be safe on shield.

DAir can cover an airdodge read so be careful, especially with a DThrow by the ledge.

At very, very low percents, Charizard can opt to either up smash to set up a juggle situation, or Nair. If Nair is the chosen option, he can try to followup on an option read. For example, if he reads a jump after the Nair, he can chase with a Fair, otherwise he can jab/regrab, but after the Nair none of the followups are true.

On Smashville's platform, downthrow - Fly becomes a thing as well.

After that, Down Throw's followups are mostly 50/50s or reads. Without rage around 80, dthrow > fair at the ledge becomes a potent 50/50 kill. Never airdodge dthrow before then.

UThrow kills at 110% no DI/rage off top BF platform. 140% with DI down and away (optimal DI)Keep in mind if grabbed below a platform, UThrow will end up on top of the platform.

UThrow kills at 140% no DI/rage on base of BF. 170% optimal DI.

At higher %s near the ledge, DI to avoid BThrow/FThrow from killing, and then adjust DI upon reacting to UThrow/DThrow.

Link:

Frame 12
Great reach, easily punishable

DThrow gets virtually nothing on Charizard except sets up a juggle.

Uthrow kills at 180% no rage/ DI.

Link can f throw and back throw Zard and get an up air if he reads your jump

Shield:
Zard:
Shield Grab- 8 frames
USmash OoS- 6 frames
Up-B OoS- 9 frames
NAir- 16 frames
FAir- 15 frames
Jab- 11 frames
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=0

Link:
Shield Grab- 12 frames
USmash OoS- 10 frames
Up-B OoS- 8 frames
Bomb- 8 frames
BAir- 13 frames
Jab- 14 frames
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=520381524

Spoiler: Combos

Combos:
Link on Zard:

BAir can connect into another BAir or Up-B at lower %s.

DThrow: 60%: Platform Up-B

Zard should DI away from Link (as opposed to behind) and DJ. From 0%-20% Zard can Down-B or Up-B.

Zard can switch from DI toward or away at higher %s to throw off Link’s UAir following DI. Zard can still jump out.


DTilt: Always DI away

0%-3% (0%-6% if Zard doesn’t DJ or A-land) If Zard airdodges, guaranteed airdodge landing lag. 22 frame Link advantage with FH FAir FF, 23 with SHUFF. Recommend FAir, because FAir can get two hits and still allows possible FSmash or another DTilt FAir if airdodged.

0%-20% Close: (Dash) FAir (true)

Mid: (Dash) FAir (not true w/ DI)

Tip: (Dash) FAir (not true w/ DI)

30%- Close: (Dash) FAir (not true w/ DI)

MidDash) FAir (not true w/ DI)

Tip: Nope.

40%-50%Close: (Dash) DJ FAir (not true w/ DI)

Mid:Nope.

Tip: Nope.

60%- Close: Dash FH UAir (not true w/ DI)

Mid:Nope.

Tip: Nope.

Bomb: If a bomb connects grounded Zard, this is what Link can do for the punish. I.E. if Zard is hit above 100% Link will need to FH as opposed to SH to punish. (Buffered FAir

0%-20%: Grab

0%-90%: SH (Not recommended at 0-20)

100%-120%: FH

130%- on: DJ

NAir can lead to grab at low percents.

Close boomerang to FAir.

Zard on Link:

DThrow: DI Up and Away

Guaranteed

0%-20% FAir

30%-60% (Dash) FAir

70%- 90% (Dash) DJ FAir


UTilt: DI Away if Link is grounded. DI Up and Away to avoid juggling. (Always can DJ out)

0%- Avoid another UTilt or USmash with DJ airdodge

10%- USmash

20%- 1st hit USmash will miss with DI Away, then DJ or airdodge out. DI away to avoid UTilt. DI away and airdodge to avoid Up-B.

30%- 40% As above but FAir is now true.

50%- Nothing true, DI away and airdodge


Jab to followups: At 85% Link can begin to jump after Jab 2. For Jab 1, up to forever, Link is forced to land.

Spoiler: Edgeguarding

Edgeguarding:

Link Offstage:

Tether- Zard can run off NAir, BAir.

Up-B- Zard can DAir

Bomb recovery


Link on ledge:

Ledge hop FAir- Zard can rock smash

Ledge hop ZAir

Bomb to cover roll, get up

Ledge jump bomb throw down NAir


Zard offstage:

Two jumps

Flare Blitz: Link can DAir it.

Up-B: Super armor from frames 4-15. Otherwise, Link’s NAir wins.

DAir can cover Zard recovery options due to long hitbox and can 2-frame. Long endlag so can be punished if missed with Zard’s DAir or allows Zard to reverse edgeguard.

Just ledge trap Zard unless you can force him below ledge snap flare blitz range. Then drop down Footstool or up B. Watch out for up B armor. Stage spike bair is bad unless your opponent sucks. Nair is fine. But armor makes it risky.


Zard on ledge:

Ledge hang makes him extremely susceptible to hits. First hit FSmash and USmash can hit, but second won’t.

Two jumps makes ledge hop TJ BAir possible- Ledge hop to second DJ Bair is super telegraphed. Charizard’s second DJ can only be used on the 32nd frame following the first DJ at the earliest

Ledge hop FAir

Ledge hop Rock Smash- Grab

Spoiler: Juggling

Juggling:

Link:

UAir- Lasts through airdodge, Zards can rock smash.

It's certainly effective against Zard since his air speed and hurtbox size makes it hard to drift out of it during an airdodge

UTilt

Zard:

UTilt

UAir

SH AC NAir


Landing:

Link:

DAir- can AC if timed right. Zard can UTilt or USmash to beat DAir. DAir can sneak through hit 1 and hit 2. Rare.

Bomb-

FF Airdodge

B- reverse


Zard:

Rock smash

NAir

Spaced BAir, go to ledge

FAir

Flamethrower

Spoiler: Stages

Stages:
Zard:

Likes platform stages.

Zard loves platforms. A smart Zard would always auto ban FD since it's his worst stage; Especially against projectile character

Fair and Nair can SHFF autocancel if he jumps from platform to lower platforms or from lower platforms to ground.

The platforms open room for more combo potential. His Uthrow is much stronger.

He has effective moves to shark, landing uair, sh nair, utilt, usmash (which is great at poking if you space it)

Link can escape a platform after shielding them though, but after an utilt, nair, or landing uair, Zard can read Links option and try to hit Link.

Link can runoff bair/fair, runoff ff shield, platform drop nair/bair.

Zard could beat Link with dash attack on ending lag or ftilt if read.

Link:

Link benefits from platforms by being able to pressure and shark them. He can also use them to speed up his movement, and avert his 7 frame jump squat start up by walking off and falling through them to instant double jump. Link in general is good at moving up and down short distances due to his amazing fast fall speed and short jump height.

Charizard can’t compare to Link when it comes to shield poking people on platforms. SH Nair alone is better than anything Zard has.

 

[Paul The Beast]

Hi there, mind if I ask what is a platform upb? I have no idea how to follow up charizard at 60% with upb when I was in the lab. Is it a jump upb or like jump fastfall land on platform than upb or something like that lol. I'd like to know how to do it

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hi there, mind if I ask what is a platform upb? I have no idea how to follow up charizard at 60% with upb when I was in the lab. Is it a jump upb or like jump fastfall land on platform than upb or something like that lol. I'd like to know how to do it

It's meant to say 'Platform Drop Up-B', i.e. you're standing on a platform, you grab and do a d-throw, you drop through the platform and then use an aerial up-b. See the meta for more information on everything. https://smashboards.com/threads/lin...rmative-quotes-can-be-found-in-the-op.379659/

 

[Paul The Beast]

It's meant to say 'Platform Drop Up-B', i.e. you're standing on a platform, you grab and do a d-throw, you drop through the platform and then use an aerial up-b. See the meta for more information on everything. https://smashboards.com/threads/lin...rmative-quotes-can-be-found-in-the-op.379659/

Thank You! I didn't know you can do that right after downthrow, that's pretty cool. Also I can't seem to get it to register in the lab as a true combo at 60% for some reason. I think I'm too slow but I also tried it on 1/2 speed as fast as I can in that timing but its still only 5 hits from the upb not registering the downthrow. Is that normal?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Thank You! I didn't know you can do that right after downthrow, that's pretty cool. Also I can't seem to get it to register in the lab as a true combo at 60% for some reason. I think I'm too slow but I also tried it on 1/2 speed as fast as I can in that timing but its still only 5 hits from the upb not registering the downthrow. Is that normal?

Yeah that's normal. Training mode's combo counter doesn't work properly. Charizard can act before getting hit, but he cannot avoid being hit if you perform it right. For example his airdodge only gains intangibility on frame 3, meaning you can still hit him on frame 1 and 2.

 

[Catana]

lets start this off by saying dthrow is probably the most useless against this char. zard can always jump away 100% of the time to avoid any followup, except at mid-ish % you can catch a jump with uair if you read the direction to which zard double jumps, so its kind of a 33/33/33 in that sense because obviously its still airdodgeable too. use f/bthrow for positioning if they know of this instead. with that out of the way, a lot of link players tend to believe this MU is good for us because zard is big and ''easy'' to zone. this is wrong. due to the uselessness of dthrow against zard, he does not have to be afraid to shield at all, which makes this a super strong option because of how high risk low reward grabbing against him makes this. combine this with his solid runspeed and a decent skid, he actually becomes pretty hard to deal with in neutral, since link cannot play a consistent keepaway game vs a char like this. flare blitz is also actually a thing in this MU, any projectile throw/bomb pull attempt that gets hard read can get punished by this. bombs are able to block it sometimes but im not sure how it works exactly ( Fox Is Openly Deceptive help plz). if you successfully bait & block it make sure you punish it by arrow locking him so you can get a much harder punish. zard's 5f (could also be 4f, not sure) jab absolutely destroys us up close especially because of the range it has too, even when blocked its hard to punish because he can cancel the hits much like us but much faster. that said, you only want to stay close to him when you're in an advantageous position, since we also destroy him when we get in on him (especially at the ledge). this is definitely the kind of MU where you want to focus more on getting into advantage state instead of playing a keepaway game all the time (important to keep in mind). that said, zard also destroys us hard once he got in, and probably even harder than we do to him. his combo game against us is good, and most of which put us in a terrible position (near the ledge or off stage) which is where things can get really ugly simply due to flamethrower. if you can, try to throw a projectile at him if you notice he wants to edgeguard with flamethrower. if theres nothing you can do about it, try not to recover with zair; sometimes getting hit out of zair can put us at an awkward angle from the ledge which can cause us to not get close enough on the way up, which will result in a gimp. just stay calm and keep upbing at a proper distance from the ledge (dont mash upb, if you do it too fast you'll skip the ledge due to having been hit right before which will also cause you to skip it, and also cause you to get gimped). when you finally grabbed the ledge, its definitely still not over, because now we have to deal with zard's up close options. his jab is really good at the ledge and can clip us out of our ledgehop options (if he reads a ledgehop with dtilt you die), getting grabbed out of normal getup can lead to dthrow > fair and all that, not a whole lot to say here besides try what you think works, take your time and use your head. pick the wrong option and you're ****ed. when above zard things also get ugly since his usmash (&utilt?) beat our nair and dair easily, at low % these can juggle us forever especially if you used your dj already, so use it very sparingly. when high above zard, try to pull a bomb if you can while drifting away from him and throw the bomb downwards which will end up getting inbetween you and zard, probably the most reliable way to land here but it cant always be applied. this MU is probably even tbh but i could also see zard having a slight advantage but w/e

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

flare blitz is also actually a thing in this MU, any projectile throw/bomb pull attempt that gets hard read can get punished by this. bombs are able to block it sometimes but im not sure how it works exactly ( Fox Is Openly Deceptive help plz).

I totally forgot to reply to this.
I did look into this some time ago. To understand the bomb and FB interaction you need to understand the properties of the moves. FB has a 4% hitbox attached to a moving and twisting hurtbox (charizard) that is trying to detect other hurtboxes, and when it does detect them it loses the superarmor and generates the 15% hitbox. Bombs are a hurtbox that detect other hurtboxes and then generate a transcendent hitbox. Essentially you have two moves trying to detect each others hurtbox, and depending on which detects which first, one or the other will win out. If the bomb detects charizard first, it will generate its hitbox which FB will absorb using its super armor. If instead the FB detects the bomb first or they detect each other at the same time or during hitlag, all kinds of weird things can happen depending on things as odd as how many frames since the bomb pull it has been, but essentially charizard will be stopped, and whether or not he takes knockback from the bomb or if he just reels back because he hit something is another thing.
Because charizard's hurbox is constantly moving during the FB, there is no way that I can think of to guarantee the bomb winning in practice. If you wanted to raise your chances though, I'd recommend doing forward throws. Back throws have a lower arch, and you don't want to hit charizard's head as that will almost always result in the bomb detecting charizard first. What you want is for charizard to be at a point in the move where the bomb can slip past his head. Beyond that there's not much to say.