[MU] Bayonetta

Stryker95

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2015
Messages
252
Location
Texas
All but matches provided are patch 1.1.6
This is a project that will take some time so I will be updating this as I go with pictures and videos if need be.
Because of her options (holding A after an attack as an example) each move has different shield stun data, I will add these as I go.
Options Out of Shield for Bayonetta MU:

For data on shields I used this document by LordWilliam1234 and looked at the advantage drop and advantage out of shield (I called the disadvantage drop and disadvantage out of shield so I don’t have to deal with negative numbers). I tested every move on shield to test if they pushed Link away or how well they could space and then tested what options we had that could still reach.

Link’s OOS:
Jump cancelled Up-B- 8 frame start up

Jump cancelled U-Smash- 10 frame start up

Shield Grab- 8 frame start up (12 frame grab start up, 5 frame spot dodge (bat within does not avoid grabs) start up for Bayonetta, keep in mind that the tether will take longer to grab if the opponent is further away)

Jab- 14 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 7 frame jab)

U-Tilt- 15 (7 frame shield drop, 8 frame start up)

D-Smash- 16 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 9 frame start up)

D-Tilt- 18 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 11 frame start up)

F-Tilt- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up) Can take a few frames longer as F-Tilt has hitboxes can hit later depending on when the Master Sword connects.

F-Smash- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up)

Dash Attack- 28 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 1 frame to start dash, 20 frame start up) Can take a few frames longer as F-Tilt has hitboxes can hit later depending on when the Master Sword connects.

Bomb throw- 8 frame start up (7 frames start up, 1 frame before blast)

Note on bombs: Bombs will connect even if enemy is right in your face. They come out faster than grab, but while both are active (tether and bomb moving through the air) tether moves faster than a bomb.

Some abbreviations (because I don’t want to write them out all the time):

DD: Disadvantage drop- this means how many frames Link has to punish Bayonetta after dropping shield first.

For example, Link has a jab with a 7 frame start up. If the DD of a move is 7 or more, Link can punish Bayonetta with this move.

DO: Disadvantage out of shield- this means how many frames Link has to punish Bayonetta using a direct OOS, like grab or jump cancelled moves.

For example, Up-B OOS has an 8 frame start-up, so if the DO is 8 or more, than Up-B OOS will punish.

I tested this in training mode 1/4 speed hold L, so these are frame perfect, keep that in mind when deciding what you want to use for your punish. I list all possible punishes considering good spacing and the fact that some moves push Link away, making some options that are fast enough not an option, I will point these out as they come.

If I state something as “perfect spacing” I mean Bayonetta hitting the edge of shield, meaning she would have whiffed entirely if Link was not shielding.
"Good spacing" means Bayonetta would barely hit Link if Link was not shielding.
"Bad spacing" means Bayonetta and Link are very close together.

Next are Bayonetta’s moves:

Jab (1): DD: 7, DO: 14
At perfect spacing Grab, Up B, Bomb, and Jab will punish.
At good or bad spacing Grab, Up B, U-Smash, Bomb, and Jab will punish.

Jab (2): DD: 12, DO: 19
If jab 1 hits shield at any spacing jab 2 will move Bayo so close that Grab, U-Tilt, U-Smash, D-Smash, Up-B, D-Tilt, and Jab will punish. Bomb will punish at any spacing except when Jab 1 hits at bad spacing as the end of Jab 2 will place Bayo too close to Link.
There is a small window between Jab 1 and Jab 2. In that window Up-B, Bomb, and U-Smash will punish.

Jab (3): DD: 13 DO: 20
If jab 1 and then jab 2 hits shield at any spacing jab 3 will move Bayo so close that Grab, U-Tilt, U-Smash, D-Smash, Up-B, D-Tilt, and Jab will punish. Bomb will punish at any spacing except when Jab 1 and then jab 2 hits at bad spacing as the end of Jab 2 (and 3) will place Bayo too close to Link.

There is a small window between Jab 2 and Jab 3. In that window Up-B, Bomb (except for the close spacing), U-Smash, and now Grab will punish.

Rapid Jab: Between the last hit of the Rapid Jab and the Rapid Jab Ender Bomb and Up-B can trade.

Jab Ender DD: 22, DO: 29
At any spacing anything but Dash Attack will punish. Dash Attack will not punish as it takes the active frames too long to reach Bayo as she ends fairly close to Link. Moves with poor range such as U-Tilt, U-Smash, and U-B may require Link to walk up first.
F-Tilt(1): DD: 8 DO: 15
At perfect spacing only Grab will punish.
At good spacing Grab and Bomb will punish.
At bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, Up-B, U-Smash and U-Tilt will punish.

F-Tilt(2): DD: 17 DO: 24
At any spacing Grab, Bomb, Up-Smash, U-Tilt, Up-B, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt and F-Smash will punish.

F-Tilt(3): DD: 15 DO: 22
At any spacing Grab, Bomb, Up-Smash, U-Tilt, Up-B, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt and F-Smash will punish.
D-Tilt: DD: 7 DO: 14
At perfect spacing nothing can punish.
At good spacing Grab will punish.
At bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Up-B, Jab, and U-Smash will punish.
U-Tilt: DD: 8 DO: 15
At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, and Jab will punish.
At good or bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, and U-Smash will punish.
Dash Attack: DD: 16 DO: 23
If Dash Attack hits Link’s shield and Bayo ends up in front of Link anything but Dash Attack will punish.

If Bayo begins her Dash Attack right next to Link she will pass through him. The back hitboxes of U-Tilt, Up-B, and U-Smash usually will not reach. Turnaround all others will reach.

Note: In every example Link begins with toes on the line.
F-Smash: DD: 38 DO: 45
At perfect and good spacing only Bomb will punish without walking up. All others require walking towards Bayo to punish but all will punish.

Depending on how close Bayo is will determine if Link needs to walk up to punish.
D-Smash: DD: 29 DO: 36
At any spacing anything will punish but may require walking up first. Grab, Dash Attack, and Bomb never require Link to walk up first.
Up-Smash: DD: 35 DO: 42
At any spacing anything will punish but may require walking up first. Grab, Dash Attack, and Bomb never require Link to walk up first.
Aerials: This is tricky. Aerials will vary because of when they hit the shield (on top, the middle, etc.), sweetspot or sourspot, autocancelling, or if the opponent screws up or not. I will just place the DD and DO as well as landing lag and auto-cancels at the end of moves. (Note: If auto cancelled, Bayonetta suffers only 4 frames of landing lag.)
Nair: DD: -3/-2 DO: 4/5 Landing lag: 10 Auto-cancel: 34>
Second hit for late hit. Nothing will punish.
Fair (1): Data not found. Landing Lag: 14 Auto-cancel: 28>
Grab, Bomb, Jab, U-Smash, and Up-B may punish.

Fair(2): Data not found. Landing Lag: 14 Auto-cancel: 32>
Grab, Bomb, Jab, U-Smash, and Up-B may punish.

Fair(3): DD: 2 DO 9. Landing Lag: 14 Auto-cancel: 32>
Grab, Bomb, Jab, U-Smash, and Up-B may punish landing lag.
Bair: DD: -4 DO: 3 Landing lag: 12 Auto-cancel: 29>
Nothing will punish
Dair: DD: 16 DO: 23 Landing lag: 28 Auto-cancel: 1-2, 50>
Grab, Bomb, Jab, Up-B, U-Tilt, F-Smash, F-Tilt, D-Smash, D-Tilt, and U-Smash may punish.
Upair: DD: -2 DO: 5 Landing Lag: 12 Auto-Cancel: 1-2, 26>
Nothing can punish.
Specials
Bullet Climax: DD: 19/16 DO: 26/23 (Uncharged, full charge)
Anything but Dash Attack can punish depending on distance between Bayo and Link.

I plan to add pictures on the furthest we can be and punish when I get back home.
Heel Slide: DD: 42 DO: 49
Anything can punish.

Heel Slide (Held): DD: 11 DO: 18
Depending on where Bayo ends up, Grab, Bomb, U-Smash, Up-B, U-Tilt, Jab, D-Smash, and D-Tilt may punish.

After Burner Kick: Lag is landing lag, after move connects Bayo requires 23 frames before she can act.

Nearly anything can punish landing lag of After Burner Kick, but the timing can be difficult. Too late and Link will not have enough time to punish. Too soon and Link will get hit by the move. If Link shields the move Bayo will just bounce off. Upon landing Bayo will slide a short distance, so keep that in mind when punishing. Run up grab seems like the most effective move as it can keep it's distance from Bayo and adds time to the punish as Bayo's spotdodge is slow. (Frame 5)
Witch Time does not affect shield.
Witch Twist: No shield data.
All punishes are difficult but possible. Keep in mind Witch Time is always a factor if you are too slow.

A jump cancelled bomb throw up can punish but Bayo can catch it with an airdodge.
FH U-Air can punish if perfect.
Aerial Up-B can punish but the extra hits come out too late so they won't interrupt Bat Within.
FH Nair can punish, but keep in mind if done too late it can be Witch Timed.
FH DJ BAir may punish.
FH delayed BAir may punish or activate Bat Within if Bayo airdodges. If she does, the BAir will end soon enough for Link to punish with BAir 1 to whatever or possibly Nair. (Footstool may also be an option).
For DThrow followups on Bayo, go here under "D-throw Combos, Strings and Mixups".
For Link's shield safety data on Bayo, see here.
There is much more to follow, this is just the basics. I will add pictures and different scenarios as I go.

With Foxy’s help I plan to work on figuring out ways to beat her approaches as well (example After Burner Kick punishes).
Heel Slide
Heel Slide is a good approach as it covers alot of ground, can catch a short hop or a roll back, and start a combo.
First, here is the maximum distance a Heel Slide can reach.
Here is the closest Bayo can be to Link when she begins her Heel Slide and still can hit Link with her kick after passing through Link's shield.
Any closer than this and her kick will miss Link, giving us more time to punish.
Now for the difference between Heel Slide and the B held Heel Slide.
One may notice that on the B held Heel Slide a few stray bullets will connect on Link's shield before the kick comes out.
Bayo_slide_1.gif
One may think that if those bullets are seen, then Link should hold shield knowing the kick is coming. However, Bayo has some options. Bayo can tap side B and right as she lays down to begin the slide press and hold B and the bullets will be delayed, allowing it to look like a regular side B.
Heel_Slide_2.gif
Or Bayo can hold side B and release it after the second bullet and the kick will not come out.
Heel_Slide_3.gif
If one can multishine or side B shorten in Melee, than one can get these timings down if deemed important enough.
Oh yeah, and a bomb will go over her.
So how do we beat this. Well, jab can at least trade, if timed well FTilt and DTilt can beat it completely, but these may be difficult. Up-B can also beat this and because of the multihits it is easier to do (remember when playing tennis with Ganondorf, spin attack was easier than a jab, [but really the bottle was best]). A pre soft thrown bomb can stop this approach as well as grab. A pivot may be helpful, especially pivot grab as it covers both options and is easier to get as the length of time for our grab is rather long, but one must be comfortable with the spacings. This is where the pictures may come in handy, if she is close enough one can know to shield and then drop shield as soon as she goes by to have enough time to punish whether a kick will come out or not. If too far one may be able to pivot grab or just reaction grab. I would not suggest jumping as Heel Slide does wonders in catching jumps.
If one shields the first kick of the attack and does an Up-B OOS it can punish before she can recover or the kick comes out, but the kick still has a chance of hitting Link anyway depending on spacing.
If hit by heel slide beginning at 60% Link can avoid the followup kick by DI'ing up.
Due to patch 1.1.6, Bayonetta has difficulty carrying opponents into the blastzones so now she has to find alternate ways to kill. As of the time of this edit, the most common methods of killing are the use of BAir and Witch Time to a laggy smash attack. (UAir has kill potential but is less used.)
BAir is one of Bayonetta's best methods of killing. This move has the same range as our FAir, but is not a disjoint. It kills at 115% on the ledge of BF and at 140% from the center of BF. Link does not have an OoS that can beat BAir so we have to find other ways to beat it. If the Bayonetta is fishing for the BAir, the best method seems to be to avoid and punish or out space it with FAir. One can pivot FTilt to catch the leg of her BAir, pivot grab or pivot FSmash to catch the landing, or pivot bomb throw to a confirm.

The Bayonetta will most likely try to get a BAir confirm off of a combo starter or an airdodge read, so to avoid this one must not get hit by a combo starter. The Bayonetta will also try to get in an advantageous position in order to avoid all our possible options mentioned above.
Witch Time begins on frame 5 and ends on frame 21, where Bat Within takes over. Witch Time affects all attacks, to include projectiles and ZAir. Witch Time stales even if it is not activated by an attack, thrown out to often and it will be useless even if it connects with an attack.
Witch Time can only be activated with our projectiles when close. The distance is shown below:


Bombs are different because bombs only explode once they detect a hurtbox. If the bomb detects her hurtbox on frame 4 of Witch Time, it will explode on frame 5 causing us to be in Witch Time if close enough.

If detected on frame 1-3, Bayo will be hit. If the bomb reaches Bayo from frames 5-16 it will go through her as she is intangible and it will land/explode on the ground behind her. If the bomb detects her from frames 21-on (so explodes on frame 22) Bat Within is activated and as we had 21 frames to recover from the bomb toss and she still has to go through the Bat Within animation, she is in a dis-advantaged state.
If the bomb detects her from frames 17-20 (If it detects her on frame 21 it explodes on frame 22 activating Bat Within) Witch Time will be activated.
So she can only activate bombs at a close range and only on frames 4 and 17-20. This makes a rather small window, making bombs not a guaranteed best option, but a good option none the less.
On top of that, if Witch Time is activated from frames 17-20, Bayo will have to wait longer to punish, so instead of having a FAF on frame 50, if Witch Time is activated on frame 17 the FAF becomes frame 66, which if it isn't a fresh WT could mean Link gets out for free.
One must keep in mind that Bayo can Witch Time the explosion of the bomb, so if the opponent becomes comfortable with the timing one may want to use less soft thrown bombs.

Grab can be a rather strong option against Witch Time. Like all counters, Witch Time is weak to grabs. One must keep in mind the length of our grab vs the distance traveled by the Witch Time when deciding to grab.


Note that her foot began with toeing the line.
Our Grab is about twice the distance of her Witch Time.
ZAir:
A note on ZAir. ZAir is susceptible to being Witch Timed, but it can be used as a bait. Because we can cancel ZAir's length at any distance by landing, we can make it difficult for Bayo to know if it will hit her. And because Witch Time stales even if whiffed, we can bait out the Witch Time through conditioning the Bayo to know we will ZAir but then we cancel the ZAir by landing before it can reach her and she ends up whiffing her Witch Time and staling the move. One must keep in mind, however, that shorthops can be punished by Heel Slide instead, so it may be best to use this when you know the Bayo wants a kill at higher percents and not when Bayo wants to approach and deal damage at lower percents.

Link Vs Bayo videos (1.1.6)
Nimious Vs Jaylen (Friendly)
LinkEa vs Sekai Doggo
SovaUnknown vs Otacon
Slenderman vs Demitus
 
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DarkDeity15

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
1,662
Location
Edison, New Jersey
NNID
DarkDeityLink015
I don't know why this bothers me so much lol. Some important MU information at least (as in, things to keep in mind aside from OoS options, they suck anyways and you'll eventually figure out what options you could go for OoS on your own, and lol, I wonder how I can punish a laggy smash attack if it hits my shield hur hur) would be nice but w/e. This is nice though, I appreciate the work you put into these.
 
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Stryker95

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2015
Messages
252
Location
Texas
I don't know why this bothers me so much lol. Some important MU information at least (as in, things to keep in mind aside from OoS options, they suck anyways and you'll eventually figure out what options you could go for OoS on your own, and lol, I wonder how I can punish a laggy smash attack if it hits my shield hur hur) would be nice but w/e. This is nice though, I appreciate the work you put into these.
Cat, Foxy and I are actually working on that. I personally have zero Smash 4 exerience (I have some Melee, but that is it) so I am hesitant to try and sound like I know what I am saying so just stick to pure numbers where labbing skills are required and not actual MU experience. Also, because of the patch her playstyle has changed, watch Badr at counterpick 13 (1.1.6) and compare it to his matches before, he spends much more time on the ground and playing a bait and punish style than an approaching combo heavy style.
We currently have no 1.1.6 MU data against Link so I can only view Bayo vs other characters but I am studying them and finding patterns.
I plan to go in depth on every character once I finish the shield data on every character first, I am only beginning Bayo now as she has given many people a scare.
TL;DR You don't want me stating my MU opinion, providing numbers are what I can be trusted with. More will follow upon discussion with experienced players like Cat but until we get more data that may be difficult.
 

Shoopdawooper

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
92
How do you other Links feel about recovering vs Bayonetta? I often find myself struggling with it. Tether to the ledge is in my opinion very risky due to how easy and fast Bayonetta can drop down with nair or dair. And Bayo's neutral b often forces me into a low recovery. Which makes it really tricky to recover. My strategy so far is to pull a bomb (as we always do when recovering from far) And either using the extra safety it provides to stall the up-B making it unpredictable, or throwing it upwards at bayonetta if she goes off stage with an aerial, when recovering low.

On the other hand, my personal playstyle with Link often heavily involves ledgeguarding which I'feel is also very ineffective versus Bayonetta. At least the way I do it. Any tips there are welcome too :p I just found run off back air to be effective when the Bayo recovers with double witch twist to second jump. Since the double jump has no hitbox and often times lingers before she gets the ledge snap.

So yeah, not a fan when off stage versus Bayonetta.
 
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