Mr. Wizard tests LCD setup for Evo

TaFoKiNtS

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#1
There has been recent discussion in regards to using LCD monitors at FGC events for SSBM. Traditionally, Smashers have been averse to using LCD monitors because of their increased input lag. Many moves in SSBM have narrow timing windows that even the smallest of delays could mean the difference between landing a technique and messing up completely. Over time, LCD technology has improved dramatically to reduce the amount of input delay. In addition, using the AverMedia capture card's component to HDMI converter allows for the Wii to connect to an LCD monitor. In a recent article, there have been reports that a combination of a great LCD monitor along with the AverMedia capture card can produce gameplay that is virtually similar to a traditional CRT setup.


At larger events that feature multiple games, uniform setups would be easier for tournament organizers to handle, reducing the need to supply several CRTs in addition LCDs. Furthermore, using an LCD for Melee would make it easier to stream Top 8 especially at Evo. There would no longer be downtime switching the TVs and wiring to accommodate Melee's setup.

Melee players have been very stubborn about switching from CRTs and have expressed displeasure against Mr. Wizard’s potential request to use LCDs at Evo. Historically, LCDs have had a significant amount of input/display lag that have dismayed smashers from using LCDs. In recent light of a recent article on LCD/Avermedia Setups, players seem to be more open to playing Melee on an LCD monitor. This weekend at a local Socal tournament, Mr. Wizard, one of the main TOs at Evo, brought over a full setup for players to try.


During the test run, several top players such as Fly Amanita, DEHF and HugS all expressed that the gameplay felt comparable to playing on a normal CRT and had no qualms about using LCDs at a national. More other local players agreed that there was no lag and the TV graphics were crisper thanks to the progressive scan on an LCD monitor. There have been reports of the setup blacking out on a Facebook thread, but this was not an issue at Sunday’s demo test.

The price for an LCD/AverMedia setup still remains pricey at roughly $330 total for both the LCD monitor ($179.99) and capture card (~$162). The expectation on the community is not to procure several of these expensive setups for local tournaments. Instead, the hopeful expectation is that the community would be willing to play on these setups if they are already provided by the tournament organizers, especially in the case of Evo 2014. Despite the solid latency, Mr. Wizard has decided to stick with CRTs for melee at Evo 2014 due to the potential risk of blackouts occurring during pivotal matches. With certain Avermedia cards, blackouts may occur intermittently during play.


Tafokints is a Sheik player based in SoCal. He plays SSBM and aspires to train the local community.He can be reached on Twitter, @ TaFoKiNtS TaFoKiNtS
 
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The Slayer

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#3
Well, it's a decent step in the right direction though. Eventually, they might turn out for the better on LCD screens.
 
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Jaxel

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#5
Forget the AVerMedia LGP... its one of the worst capture cards out there... If all you want is LCD, you can use this: http://www.neoya.com/wii2hdmi

It's what I've been using for years on the Wii and everyone has stated there is no lag.


The issue people are going to have with LCD has nothing to do with lag. It has to do with the widescreen.

If EVO is not using IE's widescreen melee hack, then the screen will be stretched. If they are using the hack, then the blast zones will appear smaller (even though they aren't, the viewing area is just bigger).
 
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bicth

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#8
many newer LCD tv's have a game mode which has no input lag. I use it on mine and there has never been any lag.
 

Keitaro

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#11
Forget the AVerMedia LGP... its one of the worst capture cards out there... If all you want is LCD, you can use this: http://www.neoya.com/wii2hdmi

It's what I've been using for years on the Wii and everyone has stated there is no lag.


The issue people are going to have with LCD has nothing to do with lag. It has to do with the widescreen.

If EVO is not using IE's widescreen melee hack, then the screen will be stretched. If they are using the hack, then the blast zones will appear smaller (even though they aren't, the viewing area is just bigger).
The monitors are able to display without stretching.

As for that adapter, it would be best to see what the ms on input lag is caused by the adapter. Cause every screen has input lag, just some are less than others. LGP + BenQ is only about 2ms of input lag which is near impossible to notice. If people think there is no lag with the Wii2HDMI then it likely has a very minimal amount of lag like LGP. However it would be best to know the exact amount. I'll search around.
 

CCD23

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#12
I also play Smash Bros. (and other Wii games) via a component to HDMI "adapter" with no noticeable lag on my older Samsung LCD TV. I purchased an elgato Game Capture HD device for video capturing purposes for my Wii games (and Xbox 360 via HDMI) and it turned out that it's also a component to HDMI adapter with no noticeable lag.

If you like to capture video from your consoles (1080p @ 30fps, 720p @ 60fps or 480p @ 60fps, and maybe other resolutions/framerates), I highly recommend it.

Since this topic is about playing Smash on LCD TVs, I won't elaborate too much about capturing, but if anybody has any questions about the elgato Game Capture HD for capturing or adapting from component to HDMI, feel free to ask me. I also have a few videos on YouTube of video game clips I've captured and can always upload more if someone (or people) want.

But anyway, I just wanted to point out that this device can also be an adapter in addition to the ones already discussed in this thread.

That being said, it seems kind of extreme to have to purchase a capture device just for adapting from component to HDMI if it's not even going to be used to for it's original purpose - to capture video. Wouldn't purchasing something like this for around $30 make more monetary sense than purchasing a significantly more expensive (~$160) capture device? (That's just something I found from a quick Google search. There are more options to choose from...)
 
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Keitaro

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#13
The monitors are able to display without stretching.

As for that adapter, it would be best to see what the ms on input lag is caused by the adapter. Cause every screen has input lag, just some are less than others. LGP + BenQ is only about 2ms of input lag which is near impossible to notice. If people think there is no lag with the Wii2HDMI then it likely has a very minimal amount of lag like LGP. However it would be best to know the exact amount. I'll search around.
Just researched. The Wii2HDMI adapter has nearly no lag at all like LGP. Pretty much unnoticeable. No exact ms numbers but it is clear that if there is any lag it is nearly unnoticeable.
 

smashbro29

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#14
Forget the AVerMedia LGP... its one of the worst capture cards out there... If all you want is LCD, you can use this: http://www.neoya.com/wii2hdmi

It's what I've been using for years on the Wii and everyone has stated there is no lag.


The issue people are going to have with LCD has nothing to do with lag. It has to do with the widescreen.

If EVO is not using IE's widescreen melee hack, then the screen will be stretched. If they are using the hack, then the blast zones will appear smaller (even though they aren't, the viewing area is just bigger).
Are you serious? No one is this stupid. Nobody. If the source is 4:3 the TV will have the option to view it as received. Every single LCD I've ever seen had that feature.
 

Jaxel

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#15
Are you serious? No one is this stupid. Nobody. If the source is 4:3 the TV will have the option to view it as received. Every single LCD I've ever seen had that feature.
Then you've never seen the EVO monitor. Because the EVO monitor has no such feature. TVs have this feature; MONITORS do not. You can even see it in this picture below:



While it may LOOK like its adding pillar-bars to the left and right to conform to a 640x480 resolution; that is actually wrong. 640x480 standard definition signals don't actually run at 640, they actually run at 720x480 (in America). CRT TVs then do something called "overscanning" to wrap the image around the glass of your screen.

What LCD monitors do is take the 720x480 and stretches it to conform over the 16:9. So what its displaying on that monitor in the picture above is a 16:10.667 signal stretched onto a 16:9 screen. I love how you guys act like I haven't been doing these tests FOR YEARS.

I was running Smash tournaments on these LCDs using all these so called "new" methods (they are old to me) over two years ago.
 

TechMage299

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#16
I play on LCD screens, most of the time i don't see problem, however every now and then, i'll fail a wavedash or ledge hop attack, mostly precise timed events
 

smashbro29

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#17
Then you've never seen the EVO monitor. Because the EVO monitor has no such feature. TVs have this feature; MONITORS do not. You can even see it in this picture below:



While it may LOOK like its adding pillar-bars to the left and right to conform to a 640x480 resolution; that is actually wrong. 640x480 standard definition signals don't actually run at 640, they actually run at 720x480 (in America). CRT TVs then do something called "overscanning" to wrap the image around the glass of your screen.

What LCD monitors do is take the 720x480 and stretches it to conform over the 16:9. So what its displaying on that monitor in the picture above is a 16:10.667 signal stretched onto a 16:9 screen. I love how you guys act like I haven't been doing these tests FOR YEARS.

I was running Smash tournaments on these LCDs using all these so called "new" methods (they are old to me) over two years ago.
Monitors, not TVs.

Ok, common misunderstanding. (Though why not just get a TV it's not that much more expensive is it?)

Question though, the widescreen hack changes when you take damage off screen, isn't that grounds for not using it?
 

Jaxel

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#19
Monitors, not TVs.

Ok, common misunderstanding. (Though why not just get a TV it's not that much more expensive is it?)

Question though, the widescreen hack changes when you take damage off screen, isn't that grounds for not using it?
Because Monitors are TONS cheaper. The reason why EVO uses the so called "EVO Monitor" is because its the cheapest thing on the market that doesn't lag. Its a TERRIBLE monitor otherwise. When you have to buy 50+ monitors, price is important.

The widescreen hack technically doesn't change anything. What it does is let you see MORE of the stage than you're used to. So the areas in which you would normally be in the "blast zone" (under the magnifying glass), you are not under the magnifying glass because you can still see yourself... since the screen is wider. People aren't used to this and THINK they have more room; when they really don't.
 

smashbro29

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#20
Because Monitors are TONS cheaper. The reason why EVO uses the so called "EVO Monitor" is because its the cheapest thing on the market that doesn't lag. Its a TERRIBLE monitor otherwise. When you have to buy 50+ monitors, price is important.

The widescreen hack technically doesn't change anything. What it does is let you see MORE of the stage than you're used to. So the areas in which you would normally be in the "blast zone" (under the magnifying glass), you are not under the magnifying glass because you can still see yourself... since the screen is wider. People aren't used to this and THINK they have more room; when they really don't.
Suppose that's fair. Never bought monitors in bulk before.

So I sat and tried the widescreen hack, first off it covers less space than Brawl's widescreen mode. I thought that was a little weird.

Second, it does change gameplay in that you're supposed to get slight damage for remaining in a magnifying glass, doesn't affect much but there is a change there.

Third, there's a lot of messed up stuff in menus and results screens, the prerendered videos weren't fixed to run in a fake 4:3 even the Star Fox conversations' text is off center.

Once it's a bit more polished I'd say it should be the standard, no question.
 

sirchadakiss18

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#21
Well it is known that for every 1000 milliseconds = 1 second, there are 1 milliseconds Monitors out there (ASUS, Ben Q) that are little to $120 - $170 19" - 26 " with no Delay at all, I'm going to get one for viewing ease cause my CRT's sharpness is so blurry, Me and My Mother had it since 2001, so it has gotten dull over the years lol. As for a converter, most HD Capture cards (Roxio, Elgato) that use HDMI as an Output actually ARE converters, so you just output the HDMI to the Monitor and Viola! assuming your Input is Component (Blue, Green, Red inputs), Ez Pz, this is actually the future for gaming tournements, what with Smash 4 coming out, and Wii U using HDMI. Matches on Youtube are gonna look Smexiiii in 720p - 1080p ;D
 
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Jaxel

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#22
there are 1 milliseconds Monitors out there (ASUS, Ben Q) that are little to $120 - $170 19" - 26 " with no Delay at all
Umm no. When a monitor lists "1ms" or "2ms" on the box or spec sheet, they are NOT talking about input lag. They are talking about refresh rate; which is something completely different.

Refresh rate is sometimes known as "grey-to-grey" value. Its basically how long it takes a monitor to display white on the screen; change that white pixel to black; and then change that black pixel back to white again. In 2014, this value isn't really important anymore since every monitor has short refresh rates. But back in the day when LCDs were new, long refresh rates meant you would sometimes see an effect on the screen called "ghosting" where there would be slight afterimages of the previous frames.

This value has NOTHING to do with input lag.

Monitor manufacturers do not publish input lag specs. Because if they did, they would have a hard time selling some monitors. They continue to post the refresh rate spec on the box to confuse consumers who don't understand the difference.
 
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P0pz

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#24
I play with an lcd setup at home, and I've never really had a problem with it. I'm sure the community can adjust given some time, and it would make life so much easier moving forward imo.
 

sirchadakiss18

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#25
Umm no. When a monitor lists "1ms" or "2ms" on the box or spec sheet, they are NOT talking about input lag. They are talking about refresh rate; which is something completely different.

Refresh rate is sometimes known as "grey-to-grey" value. Its basically how long it takes a monitor to display white on the screen; change that white pixel to black; and then change that black pixel back to white again. In 2014, this value isn't really important anymore since every monitor has short refresh rates. But back in the day when LCDs were new, long refresh rates meant you would sometimes see an effect on the screen called "ghosting" where there would be slight afterimages of the previous frames.

This value has NOTHING to do with input lag.

Monitor manufacturers do not publish input lag specs. Because if they did, they would have a hard time selling some monitors. They continue to post the refresh rate spec on the box to confuse consumers who don't understand the difference.

"144Hz rapid refresh rate with 1ms response time. ASUS VG248QE fast gaming monitor shortens the time it takes for rendered frames to display on the screen. Lower monitor latency gives a gamer the opportunity to improve their in-game response time."

I know it means "refresh rate" or so they say, but clarify that which I just quoted, to give people an understanding. ^
 
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Jaxel

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#26
"144Hz rapid refresh rate with 1ms response time. ASUS VG248QE fast gaming monitor shortens the time it takes for rendered frames to display on the screen. Lower monitor latency gives a gamer the opportunity to improve their in-game response time."

I know it means "refresh rate" or so they say, but clarify that which I just quoted, to give people an understanding. ^
This is a problem with monitors. They use the terms "refresh rate" and "response time" interchangeably. The correct way to think of it is as follows:

Response Time = grey-to-grey thing I mentioned before...
Refresh Rate = frames per second.

A 144hz monitor can display 144 frames a second (if your pc has the processing power to support it).

When it comes down to it however... NEITHER value has anything to do with input lag.
 
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