Mr. Game and watch needs to be nerfed.

[Midnoy]

Now before anyone jumps on me saying " but he's never won a tournament" Or "You're just mad because you lost to a game and watch" let me explain.



1.Freefall
Game and watch has no free fall after a recovery, while characters have this same thing they don't have the air game he has. Almost of game and watches moves either give him some kind of coverage of move to fast for a player to react so in the air he is unstoppable.

2.Oil bucket
His oil bucket gives him an instant kill that is incredibly easy to get. The only way not to give him it is to not use projectiles which will completely halt some characters. On top of both of these it is almost completely unavoidable, I personally do not know how to avoid it.

3.His supposed "lightness"
I have hit him with powerful moves at the edge of stage that I know will kill other heavier characters at that same percentage. The moves iv used include Mario's smash attacks, Ness' bat, and Marth's smashes. He does not play like a light character when it comes to damage.

4.Move lag
He has very little lag on most moves and pretty much none on others. His dash attack has none in between each use of it, he can move in between tilts at absolutely no lag, he can go between dodges and shields like nothing, and from his up smash with the helmet he can go straight to his hammers with zero lag or frame rate. On a small last note me and game and watch once clashed in the air (I was Marth). In the time it took me to fall and get up while we were falling at same speeds, he had fallen, gotten up, and ran over to me ready for another hit.

5.9 Hammer
This is by far the one that matters least to me but it deserves a mention. The 9 on the hammer is SLIGHTLY to high for fairness but it does vary. Iv seen people get 2 in one match and also never got one. So i think a slight reduction is needed but it is not to big of an issue.

If you agree sound off and lets see if we can bring this to nintendos attention! Or if I'm just an asshole you can let me know that too but you're wasting your time cause that's not gonna change.

 

[Folie]

N I C E M E M E

no complaining about usmash 0/10 worst troll

 

[A-money2121]

I respect what you think, but I highly disagree; nerfing Game & Watch will only make it worse for him.

 

[TheUndeadReturns]

you know game & watch is like one of the ****tiest characters in this game right. if you cant beat him its probably just you.

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

Hi! Before you get mad at me, I just want to explain some confusions you might have. You see, my friend thinks this exact same way. I would instead like to point out both what you are correct about and also some things you might have glossed over in your summary (and would like to chat about it).

For Freefall:
Game and Watch can freely use any move after cancelling the parachute of up B. His aerials do give him a lot of coverage.

HOWEVER

Game and Watch's aerials have enough lag to be punished on landing quite easily. Forward air, his least laggy aerial, has 15 frames of landing lag. Even Robin and Jigglypuff can shield it and get in close for a Rest or Nosferatu. The ONLY aerial of his that is safe on shield is back air - only if spaced so just the head of the turtle is hitting the shield. He has no trouble landing, but that doesn't mean he can freely land in front of opponents with immediate pressure like some sort of lagless monster (looks at Sheik).

Edit: Game and Watch isn' the only one who can act out of recovery, you know? So can R.O.B., Yoshi, Bowser Jr., Mega Man, and Bayonetta.

For Bucket:
Game and Watch can bucket all energy-based projectiles in the game. Each projectile has its own unit of value that grants the bucket one of four general categories:
Low-power bucket (Fox Laser): deals 18%
Med-power bucket (Luigi Fireball): deals around 30-40%, KO's around 50% at the ledge
High-power bucket (Cloud Blade Beam): deals around 45-48%, KO's around 30%
Ultra-power bucket (Samus Charge Shot): delas 63%, KO's anyone from anywhere

HOWEVER

Game and Watch's bucket has HORRENDOUS endlag, and any good player will use any energy-based projectile they have extremely carefully versus him. Characters like Mario, Ness, Samus, Mewtwo, and even Charizard can easily throw out a weak bucketable attack, let it be bucketed, and have enough time to charge a smash attack in Game and Watch's face. And since we all know how light he is...

For Weight:
We all know that Game and Watch is the third lightest character in the game. There's no stopping or disproving that. Any smash attack KO's him ridiculously early compared to someone like Mario. Also, not KOing with smash attacks, you say? There is such a thing called DI. I highly suggest you recheck your percents and distances on that one, because if not, I want the patch you have.

For Lag:
Yes, his moves are pretty light (pun probably intended) on lag. At low percents, you can true combo up smash into nair into whatever else. Dash attack is not lagless, but is pretty low in endlag, as well as his tilts, minus down tilt.

HOWEVER

Game and Watch has a total of 4 moves that are safe on shield. FOUR. Up smash, sweetspot down smash, sweetspot forward smash, and the edge of back air. There's also 9 hammer, but who uses that in neutral when not trying to go for a hard read? Any other attack he throws out can be shielded and punished oh so easily. Also, did I mention his rolls and techs are terrible?

Edit: Before you say that four is a lot of moves, do you know how hard it is to sweetspot forward samsh and down smash on a moving opponent?

For Hammer:
9 hammer is supposed to be broken. It's balanced because of the risk-reward of the Judgement hammer. It's a literal, unshakeable, unpredictable 1 in 9 chance. 1 hammer is useless (the 12% he deals to himself isn't even necessary with the punish he would recieve for hitting it), and hammers 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 can be shielded without any hassle. However, 3, 4, 5, and 8 can have powerful follow-ups out of them, but the 9 hammer is just as common, just as unpredictable, and just as punishable if it misses.


Game and Watch is a very solid character with only three flaws: his weight, his neutral game, and his ability to land the KO outside of Toot Toot percent ranges.

For Weight:
I personally like the fact that he is super light. No one who mains him should ever really complain about that because he has so much else to offer to compensate for it.

For Neutral:
Game and Watch has a bad neutral. His only safe options are powershield and dash attack, making him very easy to read and outmaneuver. If only we could get a nice landing lag reduction on forward air.

For KO:
After Toot Toot percent ranges, Game and Watch has a good array of kill moves. However, it's a huge challenge to land any one of those moves, since an opponent at high percents is going to be moving around a lot and playing very defensively. Opponents can just sit in shield against him since his up throw doesn't KO until above 220% (Sakurai PLEASE).


All in all, Game and Watch is a good character, but could use some minor buffs to make him fantastic. He is in no way either bad or overpowered. I am disgusted at this recent tier list going around saying he's low tier. I don't like tier lists anyway, but I can definitely say that he is at least high mid tier when played well. If only we could get a couple of buffs, I could see him as high tier even. But again, I think that tier lists are pretty illogical when it comes to that kind of placement.

Let me know of your counter-opinions or agreements, I would love to chat.

And, um, no. Game and Watch should never be nerfed.

 

[Midnoy]

you know game & watch is like one of the ****tiest characters in this game right. if you cant beat him its probably just you.

I can beat my friend with any character he uses EXCEPT game and watch. And that goes the same way for all of my friends. You just haven't seen a good player with him if you think he is ****ty.

 

[Infinite901]

Now before anyone jumps on me saying " but he's never won a tournament" Or "You're just mad because you lost to a game and watch" let me explain.



1.Freefall
Game and watch has no free fall after a recovery, while characters have this same thing they don't have the air game he has. Almost of game and watches moves either give him some kind of coverage of move to fast for a player to react so in the air he is unstoppable.

2.Oil bucket
His oil bucket gives him an instant kill that is incredibly easy to get. The only way not to give him it is to not use projectiles which will completely halt some characters. On top of both of these it is almost completely unavoidable, I personally do not know how to avoid it.

3.His supposed "lightness"
I have hit him with powerful moves at the edge of stage that I know will kill other heavier characters at that same percentage. The moves iv used include Mario's smash attacks, Ness' bat, and Marth's smashes. He does not play like a light character when it comes to damage.

4.Move lag
He has very little lag on most moves and pretty much none on others. His dash attack has none in between each use of it, he can move in between tilts at absolutely no lag, he can go between dodges and shields like nothing, and from his up smash with the helmet he can go straight to his hammers with zero lag or frame rate. On a small last note me and game and watch once clashed in the air (I was Marth). In the time it took me to fall and get up while we were falling at same speeds, he had fallen, gotten up, and ran over to me ready for another hit.

5.9 Hammer
This is by far the one that matters least to me but it deserves a mention. The 9 on the hammer is SLIGHTLY to high for fairness but it does vary. Iv seen people get 2 in one match and also never got one. So i think a slight reduction is needed but it is not to big of an issue.

If you agree sound off and lets see if we can bring this to nintendos attention! Or if I'm just an ******* you can let me know that too but you're wasting your time cause that's not gonna change.

 

[Midnoy]

Hi! Before you get mad at me, I just want to explain some confusions you might have. You see, my friend thinks this exact same way. I would instead like to point out both what you are correct about and also some things you might have glossed over in your summary (and would like to chat about it).

For Freefall:
Game and Watch can freely use any move after cancelling the parachute of up B. His aerials do give him a lot of coverage.

HOWEVER

Game and Watch's aerials have enough lag to be punished on landing quite easily. Forward air, his least laggy aerial, has 15 frames of landing lag. Even Robin and Jigglypuff can shield it and get in close for a Rest or Nosferatu. The ONLY aerial of his that is safe on shield is back air - only if spaced so just the head of the turtle is hitting the shield. He has no trouble landing, but that doesn't mean he can freely land in front of opponents with immediate pressure like some sort of lagless monster (looks at Sheik).

Edit: Game and Watch isn' the only one who can act out of recovery, you know? So can R.O.B., Yoshi, Bowser Jr., Mega Man, and Bayonetta.

For Bucket:
Game and Watch can bucket all energy-based projectiles in the game. Each projectile has its own unit of value that grants the bucket one of four general categories:
Low-power bucket (Fox Laser): deals 18%
Med-power bucket (Luigi Fireball): deals around 30-40%, KO's around 50% at the ledge
High-power bucket (Cloud Blade Beam): deals around 45-48%, KO's around 30%
Ultra-power bucket (Samus Charge Shot): delas 63%, KO's anyone from anywhere

HOWEVER

Game and Watch's bucket has HORRENDOUS endlag, and any good player will use any energy-based projectile they have extremely carefully versus him. Characters like Mario, Ness, Samus, Mewtwo, and even Charizard can easily throw out a weak bucketable attack, let it be bucketed, and have enough time to charge a smash attack in Game and Watch's face. And since we all know how light he is...

For Weight:
We all know that Game and Watch is the third lightest character in the game. There's no stopping or disproving that. Any smash attack KO's him ridiculously early compared to someone like Mario. Also, not KOing with smash attacks, you say? There is such a thing called DI. I highly suggest you recheck your percents and distances on that one, because if not, I want the patch you have.

For Lag:
Yes, his moves are pretty light (pun probably intended) on lag. At low percents, you can true combo up smash into nair into whatever else. Dash attack is not lagless, but is pretty low in endlag, as well as his tilts, minus down tilt.

HOWEVER

Game and Watch has a total of 4 moves that are safe on shield. FOUR. Up smash, sweetspot down smash, sweetspot forward smash, and the edge of back air. There's also 9 hammer, but who uses that in neutral when not trying to go for a hard read? Any other attack he throws out can be shielded and punished oh so easily. Also, did I mention his rolls and techs are terrible?

Edit: Before you say that four is a lot of moves, do you know how hard it is to sweetspot forward samsh and down smash on a moving opponent?

For Hammer:
9 hammer is supposed to be broken. It's balanced because of the risk-reward of the Judgement hammer. It's a literal, unshakeable, unpredictable 1 in 9 chance. 1 hammer is useless (the 12% he deals to himself isn't even necessary with the punish he would recieve for hitting it), and hammers 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 can be shielded without any hassle. However, 3, 4, 5, and 8 can have powerful follow-ups out of them, but the 9 hammer is just as common, just as unpredictable, and just as punishable if it misses.


Game and Watch is a very solid character with only three flaws: his weight, his neutral game, and his ability to land the KO outside of Toot Toot percent ranges.

For Weight:
I personally like the fact that he is super light. No one who mains him should ever really complain about that because he has so much else to offer to compensate for it.

For Neutral:
Game and Watch has a bad neutral. His only safe options are powershield and dash attack, making him very easy to read and outmaneuver. If only we could get a nice landing lag reduction on forward air.

For KO:
After Toot Toot percent ranges, Game and Watch has a good array of kill moves. However, it's a huge challenge to land any one of those moves, since an opponent at high percents is going to be moving around a lot and playing very defensively. Opponents can just sit in shield against him since his up throw doesn't KO until above 220% (Sakurai PLEASE).


All in all, Game and Watch is a good character, but could use some minor buffs to make him fantastic. He is in no way either bad or overpowered. I am disgusted at this recent tier list going around saying he's low tier. I don't like tier lists anyway, but I can definitely say that he is at least high mid tier when played well. If only we could get a couple of buffs, I could see him as high tier even. But again, I think that tier lists are pretty illogical when it comes to that kind of placement.

Let me know of your counter-opinions or agreements, I would love to chat.

And, um, no. Game and Watch should never be nerfed.

I see what you mean on many of your points, But in some instances I have seen the exact opposite to be true In mainly weight. I have no explanation for weight other then that I have seen exactly what I said earlier that he just doesn't play like a light character. Just a little bit ago I saw my friend hit my game and watch player with a limit break cloud attack on a game watch with 93 percent and it did not kill. My friend says he does not DI but it is possible he is doing it without realizing. Me personally I don't think game and watch needs any buffs and should definitely be high tier, anyone who thinks he is bad just has never played a good one or lives by the tier list. I don't think she should ever be made a bad character just made to play by what I see are the rules every other chatacter has to play by. Its the fact that I can beat my friend (or atleast have a chance) when he plays every other character except for game and watch and the same goes for everyone I know who plays the game. Maybe it is a case of he is just that good with him but me personally I feel it has a lot to do with his insanely quick moves, amount of coverage and armor moves, and his easy ways of completely nullifying the use of powerful energy projectiles. To me if you have a character who makes it so you cant use your whole arsenal while being able to outmatch you on speed and power its over powered, and the fact that he keeps his bucket even after death makes it to where even with punishing it IF you get a kill he keeps what you gave him and will continue to fll it. I respect what you say here but personally find game and watch to be just slightly to powerful, but maybe it is just me.

 

[Folie]

guys stop taking the bait this is why people make fun of smashboards

 

[Ace D. Portagas]

I completely agree and understand how you feel... a friend of mine mains G&W and he dominates me every single time, he doesn't play like a light character,

guys stop taking the bait this is why people make fun of smashboards

What makes you think he is trolling.

 

[MasterChef Doesn't Cook]

This thread should be closed. Research (including VODs, frame data resources, and googling the character) proves everything wrong.

 

[Midnoy]

guys stop taking the bait this is why people make fun of smashboards

I am not trolling

 

[Stormghetti]

This thread should be closed. Research (including VODs, frame data resources, and googling the character) proves everything wrong.

He's not trolling.

 

[A-money2121]

I completely agree and understand how you feel... a friend of mine mains G&W and he dominates me every single time, he doesn't play like a light character,

Simply nerfing a character only because you keep losing to it doesn't solve anything, I'm sorry. Have you ever taken the time to learn about your match-ups rather than jumping to the typical nerfing card?

 

[Stormghetti]

Simply nerfing a character only because you keep losing to it doesn't solve anything, I'm sorry. Have you ever taken the time to learn about your match-ups rather than jumping to the typical nerfing card?

Mr. Game & Watch is commonly **** on because of the windboxes.

Simply nerfing a character only because you keep losing to it doesn't solve anything, I'm sorry. Have you ever taken the time to learn about your match-ups rather than jumping to the typical nerfing card?

I mean, he's overpowered (in a way), but not just because of the windoboxes, but for minor things.

 

[A-money2121]

I mean, he's overpowered (in a way), but not just because of the windoboxes, but for minor things.

You're entitled to your opinion and I am to mine, but I don't call him overpowered. If anything, he deserves more buffs than nerfs.

 

[MOI-ARI]

Is this for real

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

Just a little bit ago I saw my friend hit my game and watch player with a limit break cloud attack on a game watch with 93 percent and it did not kill.

You sure that's Game and Watch and not Shield Shulk?

Also, Wario Waft carries over too, it's not an exclusive property.

How about this, my friend code is 0087-2523-4522
He's good. Could be much better with small changes, but far from broken.

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

I don't think he should ever be made a bad character just made to play by what I see are the rules every other chatacter has to play by.

Tell that to Sheik, she evidently existed before lag was programmed into the game.

I mean, he's overpowered (in a way), but not just because of the windoboxes, but for minor things.

How so? I'm interested in what you find broken.

 

[Stormghetti]

You're entitled to your opinion and I am to mine, but I don't call him overpowered. If anything, he deserves more buffs than nerfs.

I don't really think he deserves more buffs, just saying... People wouldn't really enjoy that a lot.

Tell that to Sheik, she evidently existed before lag was programmed into the game.



How so? I'm interested in what you find broken.

Something like how you can Up-Air windbox an enemy, Up-B, hit him with the starting attack and then break from the Up-B instantly and do something like Up-Air again and it would kind off kill in certain situations.

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

Something like how you can Up-Air windbox an enemy, Up-B, hit him and then break from the Up-B and do something like Up-Air again and it would kind off kill in certain situations.

That has always been a dream of mine to pull off. Emphasis on dream. There is no possible way that it would link like that. Fire's FAF when cancelled is far too slow to even string, let alone combo. Not to mention the angle that Fire sends at off of its hitbox at any percent above around 15% makes it impossible to combo from. Even if it did somehow link into up air, up air wouldn't KO from that height until at least 50% on Mario. Also, Game and Watch falling makes the up air impossible to connect with both hits. So, moot point.

Up air's windbox can KO off the top in certain scenarios like Mewtwo or Ness jumping directly above the up air, or ZSS or Sonic up B-ing, but you have to be at least double jump height up to pull that off. It's fun, but almost never works, so, not broken. Just cheesy. And unreliable.

 

[A-money2121]

Something like how you can Up-Air windbox an enemy, Up-B, hit him with the starting attack and then break from the Up-B instantly and do something like Up-Air again and it would kind off kill in certain situations.

Are you kidding? Other characters like Shiek or Mario perform far more annoying combos than that. I mean, I guess if you were to suggest that Shiek or Mario were too overpowered then I guess I'd be capable of seeing your reasons behind it, but it boggles me that out of all other characters, people would complain about a low tier.

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

I don't really think he deserves more buffs, just saying... People wouldn't really enjoy that a lot.

Right here.

 

[Stormghetti]

That has always been a dream of mine to pull off. Emphasis on dream. There is no possible way that it would link like that. Fire's FAF when cancelled is far too slow to even string, let alone combo. Not to mention the angle that Fire sends at off of its hitbox at any percent above around 15% makes it impossible to combo from. Even if it did somehow link into up air, up air wouldn't KO from that height until at least 50% on Mario. Also, Game and Watch falling makes the up air impossible to connect with both hits. So, moot point.

Up air's windbox can KO off the top in certain scenarios like Mewtwo or Ness jumping directly above the up air, or ZSS or Sonic up B-ing, but you have to be at least double jump height up to pull that off. It's fun, but almost never works, so, not broken. Just cheesy. And unreliable.

Uh, I can do it most of the time, but it was just an example with the Up-Air.

 

[Stormghetti]

Are you kidding? Other characters like Shiek or Mario perform far more annoying combos than that. I mean, I guess if you were to suggest that Shiek or Mario were too overpowered then I guess I'd be capable of seeing your reasons behind it, but it boggles me that out of all other characters, people would complain about a low tier.

I know that, but I cannot see how can Mr. G&W be considered as low tier... It's kinda stupid.

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

I know that, but I cannot see how can Mr. G&W be considered as low tier... It's kinda stupid.

Finally we agree on something. But who knows? I heard that Nairo and Abadongo showed Sakurai how broken ZSS and Meta Knight could be. Maybe these weight changes on Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina are a sign that bigger things are coming.

 

[Stormghetti]

Finally we agree on something. But who knows? I heard that Nairo and Abadongo showed Sakurai how broken ZSS and Meta Knight could be. Maybe these weight changes on Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina is a sign that bigger things are coming.

NERF. THEM. ALREADY. FOR ****'S SAKE, SAKURAI! Also, really, you can make extremly good combos with Mr. G&W. I can show you a replay I made (it may not be enough proof, though). Do you want it?

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

I can show you a replay I made (it may not be enough proof, though). Do you want it?

I would absolutely love to see what you think is so broken. While it is true that I devised a combo that deals 58% (the Elevator combo), that's a one-time use thing. Show me this replay, so I can critique it. I'll get to it in the morning.

 

[Stormghetti]

I would absolutely love to see what you think is so broken. While it is true that I devised a combo that deals 58% (the Elevator combo), that's a one-time use thing. Show me this replay, so I can critique it. I'll get to it in the morning.

I already stated what I think it's broken, but there's more, but I'd rather not go into detail, I think you can imagine. Here's the video:

 

[Folie]

my god this is the worse than the thread that said judge was overpowered

 

[Stormghetti]

my god this is the worse than the thread that said judge was overpowered

Why?

 

[NouveauRétro]

[QUOTE="Midnoy, post: 20837065, member: 350393"

3.His supposed "lightness"
I have hit him with powerful moves at the edge of stage that I know will kill other heavier characters at that same percentage. The moves iv used include Mario's smash attacks, Ness' bat, and Marth's smashes. He does not play like a light character when it comes to damage.

4.Move lag
He has very little lag on most moves and pretty much none on others. His dash attack has none in between each use of it[/QUOTE]
3.-u wot m8
Pics or didn't happen

4. How to punish dash attack
If he doesn't cross you up-shield grab
If he crosses you up- ftilt/UpB/turnaround jab out of shield

kthxbye

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

I already stated what I think it's broken, but there's more, but I'd rather not go into detail, I think you can imagine. Here's the video:

Yeah, seriously? Broken? These are common edgeguarding techniques when it comes to Game and Watch. The combos, while not optimized nearly enough, are still easy and fair enough to justify his balancing (hits hard, gets hit hard). Game and Watch is top 3 in edgeguarding. There is nothing about that match that is broken in the slightest. Just learn the matchup, Game and Watch vs Ganon is a one way destruction of either character.

I've presented my facts, opinions, and evidence to rebuff 95% of what both you and Midnoy have said. Sakurai, please buff. I'm done here.

 

[Stormghetti]

Yeah, seriously? Broken? These are common edgeguarding techniques when it comes to Game and Watch. The combos, while not optimized nearly enough, are still easy and fair enough to justify his balancing (hits hard, gets hit hard). There is nothing about that match that is broken in the slightest. Just learn the matchup, Game and Watch vs Ganon is a one way destruction of either character.

I've presented my facts, opinions, and evidence to rebuff 95% of what both you and Midnoy have said. Sakurai, please buff. I'm done here.

I don't want a buff...

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

I don't want a buff...

Do you play Game and Watch?

 

[Infinite901]

Freaking awesome b8 man 420/69

 

[Stormghetti]

Do you play Game and Watch?

Yes, in Melee to, but they're not my mains.

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

but they're not my mains.

Then be silent.

 

[Stormghetti]

Then be silent.

Nah... I'll say what I want.