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Guide Moveset Thread - WIP - Moveset update: %, frame data, etc. | On Hold

NeonNote

Smash Apprentice
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82
So is spin dash on shield safe? We know it can't cross up shields anymore, but what happens if an opponent shields it? Can you safely jump up and avoid a counterattack?
 

Sonic Orochi

Smash Ace
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Jan 26, 2008
Messages
874
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So is spin dash on shield safe? We know it can't cross up shields anymore, but what happens if an opponent shields it? Can you safely jump up and avoid a counterattack?
Well, I haven't played the demo but now that running through characters has been confirmed not to be a thing anymore, I think I can somewhat answer your question and expand on it a little bit.

As soon as we commit to SD, we then have a few options:
  1. Release ASAP;
  2. Release before full charge;
  3. Release at full charge;
  4. Keep charging until the attack is released by itself;
  5. VSDJ (won't leave charging state);
  6. VSJ (will leave charging state).
Options 1 and 2 will be met with the same fate should they hit a shield: an instant screech stop animation (just look up in the OP for the word "shield". Plenty of examples).

Options 3 and 4 will allow for a crossup. Essentially, it will act just like it already did in Brawl and Sm4sh. I've seen footage of it but didn't make any notes so.. yeah, maybe more people can corroborate this.

Option 5 will just loop the cycle and 6 will end it there.

So far we don't really know for sure what can be done in the spin jump states. We don't even know if SCJ and SDJ are still considered different moves or not. If (directional) airdodging is still possible during a spin jump (which I strongly believe is NOT), we could just use SC/SD, jump and then waveland back.

One thing is certain, though: uncharged spin moves lost the ability to crossup shields, leaving us with one less option as soon as we commit to that move.

All in all, I'm almost certain this is not something that's totally bad. I'm sure we'll adapt.

Also, EVERYONE seems to be sleeping on Homing Attack. I'm telling you guys: that move is so fast that it's like free %. I'm almost certain it will end up being nerfed back to what it was sooner or later.
 

shinhed-echi

Smash Hero
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Hey there, are my eyes deceiving me? Or has Sonic's Utilt changed in the latest build?

I think I've seen it twice, but it looked to me like he performed Sonic Battle's "Upper", like a flash Kick in place.

Hope this wasn't an illussion, because that would be amazing. I hate his Utilt from Brawl/WiiU
 

SonicTame

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
Messages
2
Hey there, are my eyes deceiving me? Or has Sonic's Utilt changed in the latest build?

I think I've seen it twice, but it looked to me like he performed Sonic Battle's "Upper", like a flash Kick in place.

Hope this wasn't an illussion, because that would be amazing. I hate his Utilt from Brawl/WiiU
Any clips or uploads you saw this from that you could share so we can take a look at this Up-Tilt change?
 

Kytos

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
56
3DS FC
4957-5186-8258
So guys, I just found out there’s a Smash Ultimate exhibition at my local mall. I’ll see if I can stop by this weekend to do some experimenting on what can be confirmed and fill you guys with info.

Any requests??
 
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Sonic Orochi

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
874
Location
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So guys, I just found out there’s a Smash Ultimate exhibition at my local mall. I’ll see if I can stop by this weekend to do some experimenting on what can be confirmed and fill you guys with info.

Any requests??
lol, didn't really see your reply there. Oh well.

Spinshot->Waveland seems to be a thing
https://twitter.com/desumo_ttii/status/1065884301164666880

And I think it was already known but VSDJ is now actually functional
https://twitter.com/desumo_ttii/status/1065860628458262528
 

Sonic Orochi

Smash Ace
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Jan 26, 2008
Messages
874
Location
Brazil
I was just halfway editing the OP with %, frame data and stuff only for a misclick to delete everything at once. :colorful:

I will update this later today.
 

Gregory2590

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 24, 2006
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487
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New Jersey
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So I saw in this clip of a Sonic doing a HA into a bair, killing a Shulk. It was really friggin nutty. I want to link it since i'm not sure if the Shulk was in hitstun, but I don't want to screw the guy's youtube channel since the game isn't out. Maybe someone else who totally doesn't have the game can test?
 
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Chibi-Chan

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
402
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Mexico D.F.
So I saw in this clip of a Sonic doing a HA into a bair, killing a Shulk. It was really friggin nutty. I want to link it since i'm not sure if the Shulk was in hitstun, but I don't want to screw the guy's youtube channel since the game isn't out. Maybe someone else who totally doesn't have the game can test?
I'm not seeing how that's possible. HA sends them pretty far away even uncharged.
 

Ax^2

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I'm not seeing how that's possible. HA sends them pretty far away even uncharged.
I can personally confirm that HA > bair connects. There is multiple different sources of footage showcasing it and its been tested in numerous scenarios.

That being said, it's not a true combo (as of now) and the opponent can airdodge essentially making it a 50/50. Depending how they airdodge you can frame trap them into another bair, or even a dair for style points. I dont want to post the videos here without the uploader's permission, but its there.
 

Ixisnaugus

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Good work on the OP Sonic Orochi Sonic Orochi . I haven't seen it noted anywhere but it appears as though the any Spin rolls bounce (Spin Dash Hop, landing with ASD, ASC etc.) is still a one frame input the moment you make contact with a floor, without lacking a DJ and before you enter a grounded SD/SC roll state.
 
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Kytos

Smash Cadet
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Jan 7, 2015
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While the Spin Dash Cancel is a huge nerf, I think the biggest “nerf” so far is Sonic not being able to run past enemies. It’s such a second nature thing to do at this point and it opens so many more options for movements, counterattacks, evasivene maneuvers, grabbing options, etc. Not having that simple mechanic is so detrimental to his playstyle, that I’m finding it difficult to handle. Even then, out of muscle memory, I end up running up to an opponent and stuff my face at them so often that I just want to scream out of furstration.

Besides that, there’s not many combos I’ve been able to work with that aren’t SC > HA, SC>Nair, SC>Uair (when it wants to), or Grab>Uair.

His landing lag from Dair has been increased too, so it’s offputting to feel that delay so strongly after having a consistent movement flow for years.
 
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SonicTHP

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Yeah, this Sonic feels more like Brawl where you have to chip and chip away at opponents before you can really KO them. The system change to let any move be done out of a dash make Sonic less unique and the decreased landing lag means smaller opportunities to capitalize and the lighter weight means there is less room for error. I'm not giving up, but this Sonic feels rough.

I'm done complaining, though. If anyone has good match or tech videos to share, I'd love to see them. I am committed to sharing the same.
 
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iSpiN

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
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357
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Nashville TN, US
I'm also discouraged, but the best thing is Homing Attack is pretty awesome now in our kit. The best thing we can do is take advantage of everyone having a worse recovery and utilize the additional speed to our advantage.
 

Rucent

Only strive for first place.
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Attack Canceling with Sonic is by far the COOLEST thing ever, and I feel should be something Sonic players should utilize in their tool kit.

Also, several Sonic players on Discord and on Twitter have shared that they can Spin Shot out of Spin Charge, however the timing is very precise. It's easier to use it with L/R set to jump, which is also used to make Attack Canceling easier to perform over X/Y jump.

Here is a thread/video of Spin Charge Spin Shot, as shared by Tonic:

https://twitter.com/cstonic/status/1077256301653176321
 
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iSpiN

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Nashville TN, US
Attack Canceling with Sonic is by far the COOLEST thing ever, and I feel should be something Sonic players should utilize in their tool kit.

Also, several Sonic players on Discord and on Twitter have shared that they can Spin Shot out of Spin Charge, however the timing is very precise. It's easier to use it with L/R set to jump, which is also used to make Attack Canceling easier to perform over tap jump.

Here is a thread/video of Spin Charge Spin Shot, as shared by Tonic:

https://twitter.com/cstonic/status/1077256301653176321
Good find. Also, can I also get a pm for the sonic discord?
 

Camalange

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Attack Canceling with Sonic is by far the COOLEST thing ever, and I feel should be something Sonic players should utilize in their tool kit.

Also, several Sonic players on Discord and on Twitter have shared that they can Spin Shot out of Spin Charge, however the timing is very precise. It's easier to use it with L/R set to jump, which is also used to make Attack Canceling easier to perform over X/Y jump.

Here is a thread/video of Spin Charge Spin Shot, as shared by Tonic:

https://twitter.com/cstonic/status/1077256301653176321
Thanks Rucent, Tonic shared that in the FAQ as well and I've updated my statements across threads since with the new info.

:093:
 

Sonic Orochi

Smash Ace
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In case anyone was wondering.. I haven't really been able to focus on Smash like I used to a few years ago.

And Sonic being lackluster this time around really doesn't help much either. I think might even prefer his Brawl incarnation over Smush's, even though I know that the former is inherently worse. His Spins this time around are just so bad that I get crippling depression everytime I use a SD or SC.

There's also the Spring, HA is better but the targetting still sucks.. And Uair. Holy crap the up air.

gg
 
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Camalange

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In case anyone was wondering.. I haven't really been able to focus on Smash like I used to a few years ago.

And Sonic being lackluster this time around really doesn't help much either. I think might even prefer his Brawl incarnation over Smush's, even though I know that the former is inherently worse. His Spins this time around are just so bad that I get crippling depression everytime I use a SD or SC.

There's also the Spring, HA is better but the targetting still sucks.. And Uair. Holy crap the up air.

gg
This is the saddest post I've ever read :/

:093:
 

Sonic Orochi

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This is the saddest post I've ever read :/

:093:
Oh, don't worry, I'll try to update this sooner rather than later. It's just that I'm really much more focused on other projects.

And I'm hopeful that the DLC and balance patches will make me more willing to play this game a bit more than I am atm.

Sonic will probably still be bad in my eyes, though.
 

Camalange

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Oh, don't worry, I'll try to update this sooner rather than later. It's just that I'm really much more focused on other projects.

And I'm hopeful that the DLC and balance patches will make me more willing to play this game a bit more than I am atm.

Sonic will probably still be bad in my eyes, though.
Truthfully I've been feeling similarly about Ultimate and Sonic.

It sucks...

:093:
 
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