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Guide Moveset Thread - WIP - Moveset update: %, frame data, etc. | On Hold

Rakurai

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https://youtu.be/RuuMdPeifxA?t=152

The homing attack can now be delayed longer, moves Sonic higher in the air, and most importantly, increases the knockback and damage the move deals (It did 21% slightly staled vs. the 9% the uncharged version was doing fresh), to the point where it can probably get early kills, particularly if you're using to chase someone after an up throw or other vertical launching move.
 

Sonic Orochi

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https://youtu.be/RuuMdPeifxA?t=152

The homing attack can now be delayed longer, moves Sonic higher in the air, and most importantly, increases the knockback and damage the move deals (It did 21% slightly staled vs. the 9% the uncharged version was doing fresh), to the point where it can probably get early kills, particularly if you're using to chase someone after an up throw or other vertical launching move.
For a moment I thought that this
1530711182788.png
was his pose from Adventure LOL

Anyway, the move already had gotten those properties when transitioning from Brawl to Sm4sh. They just got buffed, it seems.

Not much to highlight in this video, aside from:
  • SDR/SCR appears to be faster (but could just be placebo);
  • HA's new charging time + new locking mechanic might mean that it's practically a guaranteed hit against airdodges;
  • HA seems to trade hits a lot better now instead of losing almost every single time;
  • the guy spasming everytime he spammed an attack as Sonic. It got annoying pretty fast.
 
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YoYoFantaFanta

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I cant remember the video but I saw a video of a Sonic using a dsmash to edgeguard on Lylat. It's the Smash 4 one.

How good do you think Sonic will be in Smash 4? I think dash cancelling and his lowered aerial lag will keep at least high tier, especially if they fix dashdancing and wavedashing/landing to be like melee style. I'm excited for more aggro Sonic.
 

War Anvil

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All these changes and no Smash 4's Dair spike, eh? Have any of you folks rewatched all that Sonic footage to see if it's in this game?
 

Gregory2590

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Not sure how i feel about scr coming to a complete stop on shield. Won't the opponent have time to counter that?
 

YoYoFantaFanta

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Not sure how i feel about scr coming to a complete stop on shield. Won't the opponent have time to counter that?
I feel like that's a glitch rn, and You'll be able to go through the shields
 

Sonic Orochi

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So Spain uploaded a lot of Sonic in Ultimate vids recently and this happened. Despite people saying it stopped on shields now, Spincharge still goes through here? Might be a charging length thing that determines it now?
https://twitter.com/Iona_RoseFGC/status/1021727185353285632
There's a clip from the official tournament (mango vs mkleo, I think), in which something similar happens (also with a fully charged SD). There's a timestamp in the OP.

This could be bad. So far, everything seems to point to:
  • full charge = always goes through shield;
  • no charge = stops on shield.
Which hinders our mixups by a ton.

On a side note, I'm loving this new pushback effect on SCR:
@2:32

@2:15
 
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Myst_R

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I guess it's a good thing as it is now harder to combo with aerials due to the new KB mechanic
 

Camalange

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View attachment 151466

why does sonic's utilt hit BEHIND him? lol

video in question: https://youtu.be/FwpxThsxoNk?t=145
Anything that makes it slightly more versatile I'll take, lol
I cant remember the video but I saw a video of a Sonic using a dsmash to edgeguard on Lylat. It's the Smash 4 one.
That's kind of a bummer.
There's a clip from the official tournament (mango vs mkleo, I think), in which something similar happens (also with a fully charged SD). There's a timestamp in the OP.

This could be bad. So far, everything seems to point to:
  • full charge = always goes through shield;
  • no charge = stops on shield.
Which hinders our mixups by a ton.

On a side note, I'm loving this new pushback effect on SCR:
@2:32

@2:15
Hm. The new pushback effect is kinda weird cuz it looks like it will really limit our combo routes, but could maybe make for some I guess inconvenient edgeguarding against opponents? Since it sends low, kinda like what dash attack used to do.

Gonna collect some notes from @PeliSSB on Twitter here.

-You can’t spin dash footstool at all
-More nerfs: when Sonic is in ball form after spin dash he can’t airdodge aka easier to OOS punish spin
IMPORTANT: This also means you CANT airdodge out of witch time
-ANOTHER MINOR NERF: If you hold Spin Dash for too long it’ll eventually automatically release
-HUGE NERF: Spring has either minimal or NO i frames
-Dtilt is a combo move for sonic but it’s pretty underwhelming imo, short range and has too much end lag for combos and not enough hitstun, I could only get nair and uair at high % which is eh
-MINOR NERF: Weak hit of bair has far less KB, it won’t be killing well anymore
-I’m not sure what causes it but sometimes Spin Charge Roll pushes them into the ground instead of comboing, if the opponent techs there is nothing you can do
-MINOR NERF: All jabs have slightly less range, I couldn’t even outrange squirtle jab with it, worse OOS option INDIRECT BUFF: Weaker magnet hands makes it easier to fsmash recoveries
-Grab is frame 7, has less range and more end lag - Jab has less range, it’s only slightly more than the nerfed grab - Uair doesn’t work
-MINOR BUFF: Fair has more knockback, got kills at around 110 only slightly offstage with no rage BUT ppl still fall out of it sometimes

Keep in mind that there's still some opinion injected here since its in his own words but a lot of disappointing things to note here...

:093:
 

MERPIS

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Gonna collect some notes from @PeliSSB on Twitter here.

-You can’t spin dash footstool at all
-More nerfs: when Sonic is in ball form after spin dash he can’t airdodge aka easier to OOS punish spin
IMPORTANT: This also means you CANT airdodge out of witch time
-ANOTHER MINOR NERF: If you hold Spin Dash for too long it’ll eventually automatically release
-HUGE NERF: Spring has either minimal or NO i frames
-Dtilt is a combo move for sonic but it’s pretty underwhelming imo, short range and has too much end lag for combos and not enough hitstun, I could only get nair and uair at high % which is eh
-MINOR NERF: Weak hit of bair has far less KB, it won’t be killing well anymore
-I’m not sure what causes it but sometimes Spin Charge Roll pushes them into the ground instead of comboing, if the opponent techs there is nothing you can do
-MINOR NERF: All jabs have slightly less range, I couldn’t even outrange squirtle jab with it, worse OOS option INDIRECT BUFF: Weaker magnet hands makes it easier to fsmash recoveries
-Grab is frame 7, has less range and more end lag - Jab has less range, it’s only slightly more than the nerfed grab - Uair doesn’t work
-MINOR BUFF: Fair has more knockback, got kills at around 110 only slightly offstage with no rage BUT ppl still fall out of it sometimes

Keep in mind that there's still some opinion injected here since its in his own words but a lot of disappointing things to note here...
Of course they'd make sonic bottom tier trash! Why wouldn't they?~
 

infomon

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SuperGirlKels did an analysis video of Sonic in Ultimate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up_tI5XlAJ0

One of the things she mentions that I'm SUPER hype about: the BSBS is gone. i.e. how in Brawl and S4, sonic's grounded-spindash wouldn't restore jump data. Now it does! This will stop random SD's (erm, that's self-destructs) :)
 

infomon

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Double-posting cuz it's one month since last post.

They had the E3 demo available to try at FanExpo in Toronto. w00t!

I used Sonic a bunch because I love figuring out his super goofy moveset mechanics. Here are my notes:

Sonic's moveset definitely has some differences that will take getting used to. It's not as drastic as Brawl to S4, and mostly it seems nice.
  • the BSBS is basically gone. YAY! (check out Sonic Orochi Sonic Orochi 's video on that topic if you don't know about BSBS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXHTudsjMB8)
    • But what I'm really sad about still is that if you double-jump and then spindash onto the ground and SDJ, you can't double-jump again. But that's probably reasonable but would have been SO fun otherwise.
    • Ugh but I forgot to test, if you: double-jump, spindash onto the ground, then walk around without jumping, then spindash again, is your double-jump back? I.e. the BSBS & Knuckles. Ergh I wish I'd remembered to test, but I'm preeeetty sure that even that case is fixed I just didn't note it down in my notes.
  • Even if you double-jump and then land with a spindash (or spincharge) and then do a spinny-jump (SDJ) out of it, you can always double-jump again. That's cool!
  • You can't shield-cancel the side-B :( at all. You side-B, you're stuck in it.
  • Similarly and like in S4, you can't shield-cancel the down-B either. So starting any spindash is more committed. Unless you wait out the charge which sucks.
  • When you spindash and then spinny-jump (SDJ) out of it, from that you can directly Homing-Attack and then still use your double-jump after. i.e. you didn't need to burn your double-jump to escape the SDJ to then HA. Actually that might be true of ASC as well which would be super dope.
  • Homing Attack, you can still tap the button to launch it as quick as before if you want to, but now you can stay in the wind-up for much longer. But the MINIMUM time to launch it is still small.
  • Sonic feels great to play, the aerial spindashes seem to have faster movement speed, or so it felt :)
  • Still flops like a fish if you Fair onto the ground :( :(
  • Bad-Dair's endlag isn't quite as bad, but that might just be the overall lag buffs across the game.
  • I found it hard to dash-dance with Sonic compared to other chars but I'm sure I need to adjust to the timings of Ultimate entirely
  • Cancelling an aerial spindash with a (double-jump into immediate) directional airdodge is totally dope!! Fast quirky movement options :)
 

Sonic Orochi

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  • But what I'm really sad about still is that if you double-jump and then spindash onto the ground and SDJ, you can't double-jump again. But that's probably reasonable but would have been SO fun otherwise.
  • Even if you double-jump and then land with a spindash (or spincharge) and then do a spinny-jump (SDJ) out of it, you can always double-jump again. That's cool!
Sorry, maybe I didn't understand correctly but these statements seem contradictory to me :confused:

You mean
  • double-jump then ASD/ASC to the ground and then SDJ/SCJ = NO double-jump but
  • double-jump then ASD/ASC then FULL STOP then SD/SC (withouth leaving the ground) to SDJ/SDC = double-jump OK?
If so, that's neat but then you said that you didn't test BSBS & Knuckles so I'm very confused right now hahah

  • When you spindash and then spinny-jump (SDJ) out of it, from that you can directly Homing-Attack and then still use your double-jump after. i.e. you didn't need to burn your double-jump to escape the SDJ to then HA. Actually that might be true of ASC as well which would be super dope.
This is actually pretty good, considering how HA has been buffed :shades:

EDIT: I was kinda doubtful but I think this is not actually new hahah I checked my BSBS chart and I think this was already in S4.

v0Yesi2.png

  • Cancelling an aerial spindash with a (double-jump into immediate) directional airdodge is totally dope!! Fast quirky movement options :)
So now it's only possible to use an airdodge after a double-jump then.. Welp, understandable, considering the SD nerf. Using SD then VSJ into waveland would've been pretty much the same as having SDSC all over again.
 
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infomon

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Aye, I think I'm wrong about details. Sorry I can never keep these Sonic moveset things straight, and I didn't main Sonic in S4.

Sorry, maybe I didn't understand correctly but these statements seem contradictory to me :confused:

You mean
  • double-jump then ASD/ASC to the ground and then SDJ/SCJ = NO double-jump but
  • double-jump then ASD/ASC then FULL STOP then SD/SC (withouth leaving the ground) to SDJ/SDC = double-jump OK?
If so, that's neat but then you said that you didn't test BSBS & Knuckles so I'm very confused right now hahah
Sorry let me be more clear. I'm 90% sure this is what I was doing.

Double-jump, aerial down-b charge, land on the ground while still charging, then VSDJ, can still double-jump, and do it again over and over.
So I got my double-jump back by VSDJ'ing off the ground from charge state. If you let go of the spindash e.g. SDR into a normal SDJ then yeah the jump is gone. Probably even if you do an immediate SDJ from charging by pressing Jump from charging state, but I didn't test that one unfortch.

  • When you spindash and then spinny-jump (SDJ) out of it, from that you can directly Homing-Attack and then still use your double-jump after. i.e. you didn't need to burn your double-jump to escape the SDJ to then HA. Actually that might be true of ASC as well which would be super dope.
This is actually pretty good, considering how HA has been buffed :shades:

EDIT: I was kinda doubtful but I think this is not actually new hahah I checked my BSBS chart and I think this was already in S4.
You're right, this is the same as S4. :/

Also, another one:
  • Spinshot is gone :'( If I tried to do it my S4 way (aerial down-B and flick C-stick up), it would just jump vertically as if I'd pressed Jump.
 

Sonic Orochi

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2:10 - new SCR. I sure hope you can't SDI forward to get away in like two hits lol

Then again, even if it was possible, we could just take advantage of that and followup with an early SCJ to uair juggle (or maybe even Spring Ride? lol).


Shoutouts to B.A.M. B.A.M.

0:14 - Dair spamming on Spring is back (it was terrible in Sm4sh);
2:00 - Spring gimping still a thing.


1:00 - Spring SEEMS to recover your 2nd jump;
1:38 - and now it does NOT. I dub this new BS the Brawl Spring Bug Stance's Back, Sonics, or the BSBSBS. Nevermind, dude did a double jump ffs


1:42 - dis guy Homing Attacks.


5:00 - new animation when hitting the wall with a SDR;
6:20 - lol


1:19 - USmash beating Ridley's dair;
1:27 - SD Spinshot;
2:31 - USmash trading with Ridley's dair.


0:57 - USmash trading with Link's nair (similarly to the previous VOD, Sonic's back is hit).


1:52 - it seems that Spring screws up Pac-Man's recovery a little bit too much..
 
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Camalange

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Whoa Sonic's HA happens so fast now, that's kinda sick. I wish I could see the damage on Ness from that multi-hit SCR, that could be really strong for us again considering they removed multihit spins in 4.

Also yay Dair spam is back lol

:093:
 

Sonic Orochi

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I love using HA, even though it's bad. I've wanted it to be good ever since Brawl.. hopefully this is it hahah
 

Camalange

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I love using HA, even though it's bad. I've wanted it to be good ever since Brawl.. hopefully this is it hahah
A good HA is so worth it though. Just when you get too greedy it really ****s you.

Also the Sonic Adventure combo is so satisfying and funny (spin > HA)

:093:
 

Sonic Meaper

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No one seems to notice it's possible to release spin dash during the spin dash charge on hold in the air. If you want a proof, let me know and I'll try to find it and clip the timestamp.
 

shinhed-echi

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It would be pretty sick that, with all that Homing Attack charge time, the longer it revs up, the harder it hits (like in Sonic Lost World where you get multiple recticles that pile up damage).
 
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