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Guide Moveset Thread - WIP - Moveset update: %, frame data, etc. | On Hold

Sonic Orochi

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
874
Location
Brazil
Snagging the code from my old thread because

In-depth Guide on 5onic's Moveset
chara_5_sonic_00.png

  • 11/26/18: updated with moveset %, frame data, etc;
  • 09/10/18: more VODs. BSBSBS discovered nvm dat, im dum;
  • 08/27/18: one more VOD added. One deleted (video was not available anymore);
  • 07/04/18: more VODs added. New SCR mechanic and DSmash footage;
  • 06/21/18: third VOD added. Weird ASC, no airdodging out of spinball, Up Tilt FINALLY fixed and HA buff, no more BSBS;
  • 06/13/18: updated with new (old) layout;
  • 06/12/18: thread created.

  1. General stuff
  2. Normal Moves
    • Standard Attack
    • Running Attack
    • Tilts
      • Forward Tilt
      • Up Tilt
      • Down Tilt
    • Smash Attacks
      • Forward Smash
      • Up Smash
      • Down Smash
    • Aerial Attacks
      • Neutral Air
      • Forward Air
      • Back Air
      • Up Air
      • Down Air
    • Grab
      • Pummel
      • Forward Throw
      • Back Throw
      • Up Throw
      • Down Throw
  3. Special Moves
    • Homing Attack
    • Spin Dash
    • Spring Jump
    • Spin Charge
    • Spin Moves
  4. Quick Reference

General stuff
  • Instant Dash Attack is now done by pressing the C-stick in the same direction as the run;
  • All aerials had their landing lag reduced;
  • You STILL can't walljump by pressing jump against a wall: you'll have to actually tap the analog stick away from the wall in order to do so;
  • It's possible to pivot land now. For instance, when facing right, do an autocancelled Dair then press :GCDL: in order to pivot the landing;
  • It's not possible to footstool an opponent in the reeling/tumbling state anymore, so spinstool is obviously not a thing now.

Standard and Running Attacks
Standard Attack :GCA:


Move Specs - Jab Combo |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 2.4%, 1.8%, 4.8% (total: 9.0%)
Frame Data (jab1) | 3: hitbox active
| 7: Jab1->2 transition
FAF | 20
Frame Data (jab2) | 2: hitbox active
| 6: Jab2->3 transition
FAF | 22
Frame Data (jab3) | 4: hitbox active
FAF | 36


  • Last attack of jab combo slightly changed. Also, jab combos seem to always lock the opponent into place now, with a special property of also not turning them around when you hit their backs, apparently;
  • Does not move Sonic forward anymore.

Running Attack:GCR::GCCR:/:GCR::GCR::GCA:


Move Specs - Running Attack |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 7.2% (initial hit), 4.8% (late hit)
Frame Data | 5: hitbox active
FAF | 50

  • Dash Attack is the same as Sm4sh's last hit only (aka: no more edgeguarding with the low horizontal knockback from the multihit part);
  • Instant Dash Attack is now done by pressing the C-stick in the same direction as the run;
  • The strong hitbox can crossup shields.

Tilts
Forward Tilt :GCR::GCA:


Move Specs - Forward Tilt |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 4.8%, 8.4% (total 13.2%)
Frame Data | 6: 1st hitbox active
| 8: 2nd hitbox active
FAF | 36
Other info | Can be angled up/down.


  • The first hitbox tends to knock people away from the second one at higher percents;
  • Second hitbox can make opponent trip.

Up Tilt :GCU::GCA:

Move Specs - Up Tilt |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 2.4%, 7.2% (total: 9.6%)
Frame Data | 6: 1st hitbox active
| 13: 2nd hitbox active
FAF | 40

  • New animation. Hitboxes come out way faster now;​
  • Vertical range might have been increased but horizontal one is as meh as ever.

Down Tilt :GCD::GCA:


Move Specs - Down Tilt |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 7.2%
Frame Data | 6: hitbox active
FAF | 28

  • Sends the opponents upwards again, just like it was in Brawl;​
  • Doesn't have a "tipper" hitbox anymore.​

Smashes
Forward Smash :GCR::GCA:/:GCCR:



Move Specs - Forward Smash |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 16.8% ~ 23.5%
Frame Data | 18: hitbox active
FAF | 48
Other info | Can be angled up/down.

  • Seemingly the same as before.

Up Smash :GCU::GCA:/:GCCU:



Move Specs - Up Smash |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 6.0%, 6x 1.2%, 3.6% (total: 16.8%) ~ 8.4%, 6x 1.6666%, 5.0% (total: 23.5%)
Frame Data | 18: 1st hitbox active
Invulnerability frames | 18-20
FAF | 66

  • Seemingly the same as before but with increased KO power.

Down Smash :GCD::GCA:/:GCCD:



Move Specs - Down Smash |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 14.4% ~ 20.1%
Frame Data | 12: hitbox active
FAF | 55

  • Front hitbox was increased SIGNIFICANTLY;
  • There's no difference between front and back hit aside from their range.

Aerial Attacks

Neutral Air :GCA:


Move Specs - Neutral Air |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 14.4% (initial hit), 9.6% (right after starting), 6.0% (mid to end of the move's duration)
Damage (fresh, 1v1, shorthopped) | 12.2% (initial hit), 8.1% (right after starting), 5.1% (mid to end of the move's duration)
Frame Data | 7: 1st hitbox active
Landing FAF | 11

  • Seemingly the same as before.

Forward Air :GCR::GCA:


Move Specs - Forward Air |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 5x 0.96%, 3.6% (total: 8.4%)
Damage (fresh, 1v1, shorthopped) | 5x 0.81%, 3.01% (total: 7.1%)
Frame Data | 5: 1st hitbox active
Landing FAF | 17 frames

  • The first hitbox is way better now, making it possible to scoop up EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER in the cast from the ground with a buffered shorthop Fair;
  • The new multihit changes in the engine makes this move much more consistent now;
  • Increased KO power, apparently.

Back Air :GCL::GCA:


Move Specs - Back Air |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 16.8% (initial hit), 12.0% (late hit)
Damage (fresh, 1v1, shorthopped) | 14.2% (initial hit), 10.2% (late hit)
Frame Data | 13: hitbox active
Landing FAF | 19 frames

  • Seemingly the same as before, but the late hit KO power has been nerfed.

Up Air :GCU::GCA:


Move Specs - Up Air |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 3.6%, 9.6% (total: 13.2%)
Damage (fresh, 1v1, shorthopped) | 3.05%, 8.15% (total: 11.2%)
Frame Data | 5: 1st hitbox active
| 14: 2nd hitbox out
Landing FAF | 14 frames

  • In addition to the first hitbox nerf, the new engine change that makes it impossible to go through other characters (even in the air) makes connecting both hits a whole lot harder.

Down Air :GCD::GCA:


Move Specs - Down Air |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 9.6% (inicial hit), 8.4% (late hit)
Damage (fresh, 1v1, shorthopped) | 8.1% (inicial hit), 7.1% (late hit)
Frame Data | 17: hitbox active
Landing FAF | 22 frames

  • Spike hitbox is now instant (the moment the hitbox is active).

Grab

Grab / Dash Grab / Pivot Grab:GCZ:
Move Specs - Grab |:ultsonic:
Frame Data (grab) | 7: hitbox active
Frame Data (dash grab) | 10: hitbox active
Frame Data (pivot grab) | 11: hitbox active

Pummel :GCZ::GCA:

Move Specs - Pummel |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 1.56%
Frame Data | 1: hitbox active
Rehit rate | every 7 frames

Forward Throw :GCZ::GCR:

Move Specs - Forward Throw |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 1.2%, 7.2% (total: 8.4%)
Frame Data | 10: 1st hitbox active
| 11: 2nd hitbox active
FAF | 27 (after releasing opponent)
| 38 (from flicking the analog stick)
Trajectory | fthrow traj.png
  • Trajectory is now more horizontal than vertical.

Back Throw:GCZ::GCL:


Move Specs - Back Throw |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 8.4%
Frame Data |
FAF | 24 (after releasing opponent)
| 67 (from flicking the analog stick)
Trajectory | bthrow traj.png
  • Seemingly the same as before.

Up Throw :GCZ::GCU:



Move Specs - Up Throw |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 1.2%, 6.0% (total: 7.2%)
Frame Data | 22: 1st hitbox active
| 23: 2nd hitbox active
FAF | 20 (after releasing opponent)
| 43 (from flicking the analog stick)
Trajectory | uthrow traj.png
  • Seemingly the same as before.

Down Throw :GCZ::GCD:


Move Specs - Down Throw |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 3x 1.2%, 6.0% (total 9.6%)
Frame Data | 18: 1st hitbox active
Rehits on | 26, 34, 42
FAF | 33 (after releasing opponent)
| 75 (from flicking the analog stick)
Trajectory | dthrow traj.png
  • It seems like we have 6 frames of advantage even if the opponent DIs down and techs the throw.

Homing Attack :GCB:

Move Specs - Homing Attack |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 8.4% (quick cancel/charge) ~ 24% (no cancel/full charge)
Frame Data | 13: fastest cancel
| 80: full charge release
FAF | 27 after hitting shields/opponents
| 75 after hitting ground
| 32 after landing a missed HA
| 48 after releasing a unlocked HA and recovering in the air (while dropping around 12 training stage units)
| 54 after releasing a locked HA and recovering in the air
Other info | Damage increases by around 0.2~0.3% per extra frame of charging
Trajectory (uncharged) |

Trajectory (charged) | ha charged.png

  • It is SO much faster now;
  • The opponent is sent away from where the HA hits (just like it was in Brawl);
  • After connecting, Sonic will steer slightly backwards before being able to act again. Therefore, when edgeguarding, it's advised to use HA with your back towards the opponent;
  • Neutral airdodging takes around 50 frames with only 26 frames of invincibility. It's entirely possible to bait an airdodge, wait for it to finish and then release the HA.


Spin Dash :GCR::GCB:


Move Specs - Spin Dash |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 6% (hop), 9.6%~13.1% (roll initial hit, speed dependent), 4.8%/8.4% (roll final hit - no idea how to get the stronger hit consistently), 8.4%~13.4% (aerial version initial hit, can hit twice if uncharged and if holding forward, CHARGE dependent), 8.4%~13.4% (aerial version, speed dependent), 3.6% (jump)
Frame Data | 8: Double Jump cancel possible (aerial version only), ISDJ possible, VSDJ possible
| 9: VSJ possible (and ISDJ not possible anymore)
| 17: SDH/aerial hitbox active
| 23: Spinshot possible
| 47: full charge

  • The hop now only occurs when SD isn't fully charged;
  • Spin Dash now doesn't seem to make Sonic "spasm" all over the place when charging;
  • SDR trail is now yellow instead of blue when fully charged;
  • Its aerial version isn't just the hop anymore;
  • For the "speed dependent" aerial version, just holding forward is enough to get the 13.4% hitbox. The initial hitbox depends only on the charge;
  • The short hopped spin jump's aerials count as full hop aerials (i.e.: no damage penalty).

Spring Jump :GCU::GCB:



Move Specs - Spring Jump |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 4.8%
Frame Data | 3: Spring Ride
| 5-7: invincibility frames
| 12: ledge grab possible
FAF | 19


  • Invulnerability was heavily nerfed.


Spin Charge:GCD::GCB:


Move Specs - Spin Charge |:ultsonic:
Damage (fresh, 1v1) | 2.2%~2.8% (1st hit), 2.0%~2.6% (2nd hit), 1.9%~2.5% (3rd hit), 1.8%~2.3% (4th), 1.8%~2.2% (5th), 1.8%~2.0% (6th), 1.8%~1.9% (7th), 1.8% (8th), 4.8% (last hit), 7.2% (jump), 3.0% (aerial version initial hit, can hit twice if holding forward), 1.8% (aerial version)
Frame Data | 14: first charge, VSJ possible
| 15: hitbox active (if released)
FAF (uncharged) | 41

  • While incredibly weak in its aerial version (a mere shadow of what it was in Brawl), the ground version is more reliable than SD for comboability;
  • It's possible to link Dair spike after a SCJ at around 50%~70%.

Spin Moves :ultsonic:
  • There are some moves that can be done either from the Spin Dash (side B) or the Spin Charge (down B). Even though they might look the same, they don't always act the same!
  • When charging the SD/SC and pressing the attack button or the jump button (only with SC), you'll do the Vertical Spin Jump (VSJ). This move, as its name implies, is a vertical jump with an active hitbox. Unlike Brawl, if you hit an enemy with this, they'll be sent the same direction that Sonic's facing;
    • Pressing the jump button while charging a SD will result in a Vertical Spin Dash Jump (VSDJ), which is basically a jump while still charging the SD;
    • Unlike Smash 4, you can actually release the SD while doing a VSDJ;
    • Buffering the SD release during a VSDJ can lead to an almost as fast (if not as fast) SD from a higher height. This technique is known as Hop Dash (HD);
  • The rolls you transition into after releasing the SD or the SC look similar but are quite different!
    • The roll from SD is the Spin Dash Roll (SDR). It is a stronger singlehit move;
    • The roll from SC is the Spin Charge Roll (SCR). It is a weaker multihit move;
  • The jumps from the rolls look similar but are also different (albeit not much):
    • The jump from SDR is the Spin Dash Jump (SDJ). It has a more horizontal knockback;
    • The jump from SCR is the Spin Charge Jump (SCJ). It has a more diagonal knockback;
      • Using a grounded SC and immediately pressing any direction on the C-Stick (except for down) will lead into an "almost instant" SCJ;
  • The aerial versions of the moves also look similar but act differently:
    • The ASD is a different move now, and kind of works like a Spin Dash Hop (SDH) and SDR combined into one;
    • The ASC is terrible now;
  • A roll that goes off a platform will transition into a new move:
    • A SDR will become an ASD;
    • A SCR will become an ASC;
  • Spinshotting can now be done from SD only:
    • For SD, you'll have to time an attack or jump press right after releasing the SD (the C-Stick also works);
    • The ground version can only be done from SD;

Sonic's most damaging moves:
  1. Full charge Homing Attack (24%);
  2. Fully charged Forward and Up Smashes (23.5%);
  3. Fully charged Down Smash (20.1%);
  4. Uncharged Forward and Up Smashes, sweetspotted Bair (16.8%);
  5. Uncharged Down Smash, sweetspotted Nair (14.4%);
  6. Forward tilt, Uair (13.2%)

Spring Ride:

Consists on using Spring right below the opponent, making it possible for both characters to be sent upwards by the trampoline.

As a general rule, it should be possible to use it after an Uthrow with a single hop up to around 40% for floaties, 50% for average and 60% for heavies. Also works with a quick double jump at around 0.8~1.2 of that value.

In SmUsh it's possible for Sonic to use the Spring before the opponent does (literally 1 frame earlier than usual), making it possible for him to act earlier during the Ride. Certain characters that bounce too high for Sonic's Uair2 to reach them can actually be hit if this happens.

Character-specific shenanigans:


| Footstool Dair (same/opposite direction FS) | Buffered SH Aerials vs. standing opponent (Uair2 may need one or multiple of the following: crossup, RAR, Uair1's outer hitbox). Fair works on ALL characters (though not perfectly against Pikachu and only Pikachu). | Spring Ride effectiveness (whether Uair works or not) | Uthrow to Hop Dash (may need to be reversed before the jump; can lead to Spring Ride or even a footstool. "Combos" based on what Training mode tells us. HD can be delayed a bit and combo on even higher % sometimes.)
:ultbayonetta: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair | Works | Combo (up to 13%), followup (up to 24%)
:ultbowser: | Opposite | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1) | Doesn't work | Combo (up to 18%), followup (up to 32%)
:ultbowserjr: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Uair | Works | Combo (up to 13%), followup (up to 21%)
:ultfalcon: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair | Doesn't work | Combo (up to 20%), followup (up to 29%)
:ultcloud: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair (not too reliable), Uair (1) | Works | Combo (up to 20%), followup (up to 34% o_O)
:ultcorrin: | Opposite | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1) | Works | Combo (up to 18%), followup (up to 20%)
:ultdiddy: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Uair (1) | Doesn't work | Combo (at 0% - frame perfect), followup (up to 21%)
:ultdk: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair | Works | Combo (up to 17%), followup (up to 28%)
:ultdoc: | Opposite | Nair, Fair, Uair (1) | Works | Followup (up to 5%)
:ultduckhunt: | Opposite | Nair (not too reliable), Fair, Uair (1) | Works | Combo (up to 2%), followup (up to 9%)
:ultfalco: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1) | Doesn't work | Followup (up to 9%)
:ultfox: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Uair (1) | Doesn't work | Combo (up to 13%), followup (up to 21%)
:ultganondorf: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair | Works but timing is strict | Combo (up to 13%), followup (up to 18%)
:ultgreninja: | Doesn't work | Nair (not too reliable), Fair, Uair (1) | Doesn't work | Combo (up to 14%), followup (up to 18%)
:ulticeclimbers: | Opposite (main), Both (CPU) | Nair, Fair, Uair (1) | Works | Followup (up to 9%)
:ultike: | Same | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair | Works | Combo (up to 22%), followup (up to 24%)
:ultincineroar: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1) | Doesn't work | Combo (up to 6%), followup (up to 23%)
:ultinkling: | Opposite | Nair, Fair, Uair | Works | Combo (up to 2%), followup (up to 9%)
:ultisabelle: | Can work both ways but is finnicky | Nair, Fair, Uair (1) | Works (2 hits) | Followup (up to 9%)
:ultjigglypuff: | Same | Nair, Fair, Uair (not too reliable) | Works (2 hits) | Combo (up to 1% lol), followup (up to 8%)
:ultkingdedede: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair | Works | Combo (up to 17%), followup (up to 23%)
:ultkrool: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair | Works but timing is strict | Combo (up to 31%)
:ultkirby: | Same | Fair | Works (2 hits) | Combo (up to 1% lol), followup (up to 9%)
:ultlink: | Same | Nair, Fair, Uair | Works | Combo (up to 15%), followup (up to 19%)
:ultlittlemac: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Uair (1) | Works | Combo (up to 12%), followup (up to 17%)
:ultlucario: | Same | Nair, Fair, Uair (not too reliable) | Works | Combo (up to 15%), followup (up to 20%)
:ultlucas: | Same | Nair, Fair, Uair (1) | Works | Followup (up to 8%)
:ultluigi: | Opposite | Nair, Fair, Uair (1) | Works | Followup (up to 3%)
:ultmario: | Opposite | Nair, Fair, Uair (1) | Works | Followup (up to 8%)
:ultmarth: | Opposite | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair | Works | Combo (up to 17%), followup (up to 23%)
:ultlucina: | Opposite | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair | Works | Combo (up to 17%), followup (up to 23%)
:ultmegaman: | Same | Nair, Fair, Uair (1) | Works | Combo (up to 12%), followup (up to 18%)
:ultmetaknight: | Doesn't work | Fair, Uair (1) | Works | Followup (up to 8%)
:ultmewtwo: | Both | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1) | Works | Combo (up to 17%), followup (up to 27%)
:ultmiifighters: | :4miibrawl::4miisword:: doesn't work ; :4miigun:: same | :4miibrawl::4miisword::4miigun:: Nair, Fair, Uair (1)
:ultgnw: | Same | Nair, Fair, Uair (1)
:ultness: | Same | Nair, Fair, Uair (1) | Works (2 hits) | Combo (up to 1% lol), followup (up to 9%)
:ultolimar: | Opposite | Fair, Uair (1 - not too reliable)
:ultpacman: | Opposite | Nair, Fair, Uair (1)
:ultpalutena: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
:ultpeach: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (not too reliable)
:ultdaisy: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
:ultpichu: | Doesn't work | Fair
:ultpikachu: | Can work when facing opposite ways but it's finnicky | Fair | Works | Combo (up to 1% lol), followup (up to 11%)
:ultpiranha: | |
:ultpit: | Same | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
:ultdarkpit: | Same | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
:ultpokemontrainer: | :squirtle::charizard:: doesn't work ; :ivysaur:: same | :squirtle:: Nair (not too reliable), Fair, Uair (1); :ivysaur::charizard:: Nair, Fair, Uair (1)
:ultridley: | Same | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair | Works | Combo (up to 34%), followup (up to 39%)
:ultrob: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair
:ultrobin: | Same | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
:ultrosalina: | Opposite | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair
:ultroy: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
:ultchrom: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
:ultryu: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
:ultken: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
:ultsamus: | Both | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair | Works (2 hits) | Combo (up to 21%), followup (up to 27%)
:ultdarksamus: | Both | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair | Works (2 hits) | Combo (up to 21%), followup (up to 27%)
:ultsheik: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
:ultshulk: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
:ultsimon: | Same | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1) | Works | Combo (up to 21%), followup (up to 25%)
:ultrichter: | Same | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1) | Works | Combo (up to 21%), followup (up to 25%)
:ultsnake: | Same | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
:ultsonic: | Same | Nair, Fair, Uair (1)
:ulttoonlink: | Same | Nair, Fair, Uair (1)
:ultvillager: | Can work both ways but is finnicky | Nair, Fair, Uair (1)
:ultwario: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Uair (1)
:ultwiifittrainer: | Opposite | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (not too reliable)
:ultwolf: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Uair (1)
:ultyoshi: | Can work both ways but is finnicky | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1) | Works (2 hits) | Combo (up to 10%)
:ultyounglink: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Uair (1)
:ultzelda: | Opposite | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (not too reliable)
:ultzss: | Doesn't work | Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair (1)
 

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ENCOREY

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
33
- Dair seems to have less landing lag
- Spring seems to be nerfed (Less vertical distance)
 

Sytal

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Messages
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NNID
Sytal
Something I noticed: in the trailer:
During one segment, Sonic performs what appears to be a mid-air dodge, but with directional influence reminiscent of Melee.
I was unable to see any other dodges in the trailer, but its possible that Melee's areal dodges may be returning.

Edit: Apparently the trailer I watched wasn't the full one, and the mid-air dodges are explained in the full one.
Ignore my ignorance here please
 
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Fusion-Aura

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
1
Gonna watch one of the videos again to confirm this but I fear BSBS is back...ffs
Edit: Maybe not? https://youtu.be/qpjFpt-7k_Y?t=1310 He used his jump up
Many of the same animations.
Spin Dash still has the hop. Maybe when it is charged or that was the Spin Charge
 
Last edited:

Camalange

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BRoomer
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May 12, 2008
Messages
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Seattle
NNID
Camalange
3DS FC
1160-9836-5007
Switch FC
SW-4197-1438-9208
So glad to see you here, Sonic Orochi.

Things that have been relayed to me from E3 attendees...

> SDSC is removed
> Spinshot is still in, but is apparently more difficult to perform
> Dtilt launches vertically again like in Brawl
> Harder to fall out of Usmash hits?
> Has a weird slide after he does a dodge roll
> Most Uthrow confirms seem to be in tact, with the exception of high percent Uthrow > Spring > Aerial confirms, possibly

Gonna watch one of the videos again to confirm this but I fear BSBS is back...ffs
Edit: Maybe not? https://youtu.be/qpjFpt-7k_Y?t=1310 He used his jump up
Many of the same animations.
Spin Dash still has the hop. Maybe when it is charged or that was the Spin Charge
Looks like they used a double jump before doing Spin Dash.

Sonic was used a lot during the tournament so if I notice more things that haven't been mentioned I'll report back.

EDIT: Finished updating after my rewatch.

:093:
 
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Sytal

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> SDSC is removed
Woah woah woah: Hold up here.
We can't shield from spins anymore?
Of all the things they decided to change, THAT was on the top of their list?
 
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Sonic Orochi

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With the new "do-whatever-you-want out of a run" tech, I'd say it's not as bad as it could've been.
 

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Supposedly, BSBS has been fixed. I haven't seen visual confirmation though.

Also heard it takes longer to act after Spring.
Woah woah woah: Hold up here.
We can't shield from spins anymore?
Of all the things they decided to change, THAT was on the top of their list?
Seems so...
>old dtilt is back
neat
man i miss playing smash
You're back, just like old dtilt.

:093:
 

MarKO X

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Couple of things I've noticed from playing the game (playing at Nintendo NY this morning)

Absolute: homing attack can charge for waaaaaaaaaaaaay longer.
90% positive: uthrow is no longer a kill throw at any reasonable percent.

And yes, losing the spin dash shield cancel sucks, but being able to do whatever you want out of run is wonderful.
It's like, you did something laggy alllll the way over there? Hold my fsmash. lol
It'll be a small adjustment to make. I like it.
 

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Couple of things I've noticed from playing the game (playing at Nintendo NY this morning)

Absolute: homing attack can charge for waaaaaaaaaaaaay longer.
90% positive: uthrow is no longer a kill throw at any reasonable percent.

And yes, losing the spin dash shield cancel sucks, but being able to do whatever you want out of run is wonderful.
It's like, you did something laggy alllll the way over there? Hold my fsmash. lol
It'll be a small adjustment to make. I like it.
I've been hearing about this doing anything out of run thing.

Is it different from how we used to have screech stop? Does every character basically have screech stop now or is more like you can jump cancel Usmash with any move?

:093:
 

SonicTame

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Is it just me or does Sonic's ground jump seem to be faster? MKLeo seemed to do follow ups out of up-throw much quicker and easier now. Might just be the game speed itself.
 

Gregory2590

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You're back, just like old dtilt.

:093:
I'm even more impressed that someone remembered me.

Also, i'm not sure how to feel about the new Fthrow. If it's like Brawl's bthrow(killing at relatively early percentages), I guess I don't mind.
 

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Is it just me or does Sonic's ground jump seem to be faster? MKLeo seemed to do follow ups out of up-throw much quicker and easier now. Might just be the game speed itself.
I heard that jumpsquats are no longer a thing in this game.
I'm even more impressed that someone remembered me.

Also, i'm not sure how to feel about the new Fthrow. If it's like Brawl's bthrow(killing at relatively early percentages), I guess I don't mind.
I remembered ^_^

I kinda hated the old Fthrow, though I haven't seen the new one yet. If it actually goes forward instead of the most livable, diagonal angle then that's cool.

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MarKO X

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I've been hearing about this doing anything out of run thing.

Is it different from how we used to have screech stop? Does every character basically have screech stop now or is more like you can jump cancel Usmash with any move?

:093:
I'm almost sure that every character can do it, but I can't absolutely confirm because I only did it with Sonic. NinjaLink said that everyone can though.
It's basically screechstop, but you can act even faster(?) out of it.

More importantly, you know how you tap the stick for a moment and get that slide that Sonic gets, and if you press a button too soon you get a dash attack?
This time, you get whatever attack you input.
:093:
 

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I'm almost sure that every character can do it, but I can't absolutely confirm because I only did it with Sonic. NinjaLink said that everyone can though.
It's basically screechstop, but you can act even faster(?) out of it.

More importantly, you know how you tap the stick for a moment and get that slide that Sonic gets, and if you press a button too soon you get a dash attack?
This time, you get whatever attack you input.
:093:
Damn, this changes a lot. Pretty cool though.

Makes screech stop less impressive though RIP I guess :(

:093:
 

Sonic Orochi

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We have no idea on most HA properties so far, but considering how fast its recovery seems to be now (VODs and timestamps in the first post), I'd say it's at least safer, unless if its recovery is inversely proportional to its charge.

The targetting and trajectory calculations also seem to have changed, considering that, in the video, the HA is released when Fox is a little bit above the ground and then the attack finally hits him when he's practically crouched, and we can even see a little adjustment throughout its trajectory. If it was the old HA, it would've most probably miss, making that weird "S" curve path that you'd get sometimes.

Here's the path it takes now, compared to how it would've probably been on previous Smashes. Notice how it does seem to curve down a lot more this time.
1528984770859.png
1528984176824.png
1528984061958.png
1528984303813.png


HOWEVER, it doesn't seem like we get a good height after hitting someone with it (and possibly a shield, too), making it easier to punish, I guess.

1528984394579.png
1528984432327.png


On a side note, here's the (possible) FAF, at 44:
1528984526266.png


ALSO, I think using HA is just asking to be countered by the new parry mechanic.

But, hey, there's an on-screen target reticle when you use it now, so.. cool?
 

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ALSO, I think using HA is just asking to be countered by the new parry mechanic.

But, hey, there's an on-screen target reticle when you use it now, so.. cool?
Correct me if i'm wrong since I haven't played smash in eras, but wasn't using raw HAs to begin with a bad idea? Wouldn't you normally hit confirm into it with something like a SD>HA? Also, I have an interesting theory that needs to be tested: What if you can switch who you're targeting with HA during the charge up animation? Would give relevance to the reticle outside of fanservice flavor.
 

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Maybe outside of 1v1 he can target multiple opponents lol like Lost World

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Sonic Orochi

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Remember how everyone who had a descending Dair had an extra hitbox once they hit the ground EXCEPT for Sonic?

Well, looks like that's actually a good thing in SSBU:

1:19
 
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Sytal

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That looks like a good find. Maybe that'll make me less salty about the discrepancy between Sonic's Dair and other similar Dairs.
However, even if we don't have the additional hit, I'm curious to see how perfect shielding would affect Sonic's Dair.
Wouldn't we still have a problem from the new mechanics if the Dair gets Perfect shielded just before we hit the ground?
 

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We still would, yes. However, it's just that the opponent get's less opportunities to punish. That's all. My big worry is an opponent perfect shielding our spindashes since we can no longer shield cancel them. Never mind the fact that our SDJ etc. adds another hitbox to be parried from. I guess our mixups just won't be as spindash centric anymore.
 

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My big worry is an opponent perfect shielding our spindashes since we can no longer shield cancel them..
Ack. That notion didn't even occur to me. Now I'm even more concerned.
I'm not sure how many beneficial changes the Spindash is getting in Ultimate, but considering that shields were already eating spins in Sm4sh, this might not bode well for Sonic. Hopefully it either won't be that bad or changes made to spin dash may reduce the problems that would come from hitting shields all the time.
 

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Ack. That notion didn't even occur to me. Now I'm even more concerned.
I'm not sure how many beneficial changes the Spindash is getting in Ultimate, but considering that shields were already eating spins in Sm4sh, this might not bode well for Sonic. Hopefully it either won't be that bad or changes made to spin dash may reduce the problems that would come from hitting shields all the time.
Yeah, it might be ****ty. I was hoping ASCSC would return from brawl, but with the perfect shielding, i'm not sure if I want it back. I'm not going to write off Sonic just yet, though. After all in the videos in the OP, sonic straight up murdered Fox from the further end of SV with a fsmash at 98%(this is a melee kill percentage, mind you) in a four player match where damage and knockback(?) are scaled down until 1v1s. That being said, in one of the other videos on battlefield, he Fsmashed mario at 90+ at the edge and he lived...I guess it's just blast zone ****ery.
 
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Sonic Orochi

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I wouldn't worry too much about SD (for now) because our main option in neutral now will be running and dashing anyway (I think).

Also, there's also the possibility that VSDJ and VSJ got buffed somehow.. Maybe we can just VSDJ and waveland? It's definitely not as good as SDSC but it's something. And maybe SD gets different properties after it's fully charged, aside from losing its hop.

Aaaaand there's SC which has barely been shown yet.

I believe Sonic's gonna be high tier at minimum, at least as far as the E3 build goes.
 

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HA still have that weird "S" thing....at least looks like it...
Looks like you can now cancel it at the moment you want too...
It annoys me that the reticle is more for aesthetics than being actually functional...
and besides from what direction it hits the opponent (and this one flies, like in brawl) the rest of the move looks like still works like in smash 4
 

Gregory2590

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>that dair landing lag
son

>that new HA trajectory
SON

Like, that new HA trajectory might make HA a more legit neutral tool. Running up to someone but they start throwing out an attack? Stall it out with a millisecond HA and they'll eat it(provided they don't out prioritize you....)
 
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Smashmar2

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The more Changes I see the more I cannot wait to play this game! Sonic looks like he's gonna be LIT!
 

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Hey what's good. Havent been on smashboards in years.

Do we know what Sonic's down smash and down taunt are? Those are the only moves I haven't seen footage of.

Also, why don't Sonic's nair, bair, and fair autocancel from a shorthop? There's no reason for it.
 

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15:15 on the bottom video shows the new dsmash animation. It's kinda like Sonic Flare from Sonic Battle, except his legs don't go in the sky.
 

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I still have yet to see Dsmash as well lol wth not even Ken or MKLeo seemed to have done it once.

:093:
 
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