Moves you think deserve a nerf

Crucible

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#1
While 3.10 was probably the best smash patch to date imo, there’s definitely still some balancing to be made in the name of some moves.

Maybe I’m just not good enough or play too much WiFi to be able to accurately react to a few moves but imo dying from moves like any of Ganon’s spammable, long ranged, disjointed, extremely powerful smash attacks, PK Freeze, Roller(why do I know this is coming but still struggle to avoid it), Zelda’s neutral B, and NIKITA just to name a few, is beyond frustrating.

Personal opinions?
 

Sean²

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#2
Ganondorf's smashes are also slow. You can avoid getting hit by them by A. Not running face first into them, or B. Not trying to land directly on top of him. Play smart and you can destroy most wifi Ganons.

PK Freeze is dumb when it hits but you can tell where it's gonna end up from 15 miles away. Any time I fight a Lucas player I might get hit by it maybe once in 5 or so games. Lucas honestly needs that move to be as-is so it isn't useless again.

You can shield Roller and Inkling can't do a damn thing about it. You get a free hit.

Nayru's Love is a Wifi-only move. You can also wait it out and attack in the endlag.

Nikita is still stupid. I'll give you that. Snake players who circle the ledge with it can be frustrating if you're forced to recover low, and he has no real risk involved because he can throw it out from midstage. But if you can mix up your recovery a bit, he won't have enough time to act in the endlag of the move to be able to follow up very well unless he releases it prematurely.
 

Crucible

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#3
Ganondorf's smashes are also slow. You can avoid getting hit by them by A. Not running face first into them, or B. Not trying to land directly on top of him. Play smart and you can destroy most wifi Ganons.

PK Freeze is dumb when it hits but you can tell where it's gonna end up from 15 miles away. Any time I fight a Lucas player I might get hit by it maybe once in 5 or so games. Lucas honestly needs that move to be as-is so it isn't useless again.

You can shield Roller and Inkling can't do a damn thing about it. You get a free hit.

Nayru's Love is a Wifi-only move. You can also wait it out and attack in the endlag.

Nikita is still stupid. I'll give you that. Snake players who circle the ledge with it can be frustrating if you're forced to recover low, and he has no real risk involved because he can throw it out from midstage. But if you can mix up your recovery a bit, he won't have enough time to act in the endlag of the move to be able to follow up very well unless he releases it prematurely.
Ganons smashes aren’t really THAT slow. If you watch Nairo he consistently lands then on players like samsora multiple times a match. Bad WiFi players spam them and all it takes is one to hit your med-light character and you’re pretty much done with that stock.
 
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#4
Ganons smashes aren’t really THAT slow. If you watch Nairo he consistently lands then on players like samsora multiple times a match. Bad WiFi players spam them and all it takes is one to hit your med-light character and you’re pretty much done with that stock.
First of all, you're talking about Nario on WiFi. Players as good as Nario struggle to find a Quickplay match at all let alone one in his own region for a stable connection of any kind. Of flipping course landing a slow move isn't going to be hard. Literally anyone could do it with enough lag on their side.

Second of all, while not connected to someone potentially half way across the planet, input lag is brought down SIGNIFICANTLY giving any normal human enough time to react. Once inputted, the move comes out 0.4833 seconds later (29 frames) unless the move is held which is way more than enough time needed to keep yourself safe from it and punish however you would like.
 

Arrei

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#5
Nairo still lands those smashes playing against opponents in the same room as him. He hangs out with other tourney-level smashers. It isn't just a wifi thing.

Avoiding Ganon's smashes really isn't about reacting to them, it's about not giving him the room to throw them out in the first place. Those smashes are why his mobility is awful and his fastest option is frame 7, you have to really manhandle him with pressure. It's a balancing game where being too afraid of challenging him gives him the room he needs to throw out attacks, but attacking too haphazardly allows him to smash for a brutal whiff punish and spotdodging too predictably allows him to chuck one out on prediction. If both players are standing there doing nothing and Ganondorf pulls out his sword, sure, you can react to that, but most commonly people are going to get hit when they decide to try the wrong action at the wrong time. As strong as they are, it took being this strong for a super-slow smash attack to not be trash tier like Ike or Snake's forward smashes.
 
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Crystanium

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#6
Ganondorf's smash attacks aren't that quick. Respect the damage output on both you and your shield, but pay attention on when these smash attacks are used. Ganondorf might use f-smash or u-smash while you hang on the ledge to bait you into rolling or just getting up. He might try side special and watch the direction you roll or tech to land f-smash or d-smash.

PK Freeze works on opponents not paying attention. It's quick and kills in double-digits, especially if you don't feel like breaking your controller to mash out. Still, it's predictable and easily avoidable.

To avoid Roller, shield more, or jump often, or use platforms. If you're at high enough damage and your opponent tries using Roller on you and misses or fails, he/she has shown his/her hand. Avoid Roller now.

Zelda's Nayru's Love is annoying. I agree here in that it needs to be toned down a bit. It makes Zelda invincible and has intangibility, meaning if you go for a grab (tethers, especially), you'll miss. It also has quite a bit of range and is easily spammable. I say increase cool down.

Nikita can be hit, and it seems the hitbox goes away for a bit. Take advtange of that.
 
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$.A.F.

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#7
Ganons smashes aren’t really THAT slow. If you watch Nairo he consistently lands then on players like samsora multiple times a match. Bad WiFi players spam them and all it takes is one to hit your med-light character and you’re pretty much done with that stock.
Doriyah is frame 30. For God’s sake.
 

Sean²

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#8
Ganons smashes aren’t really THAT slow. If you watch Nairo he consistently lands then on players like samsora multiple times a match. Bad WiFi players spam them and all it takes is one to hit your med-light character and you’re pretty much done with that stock.
They are that slow, in comparison to many of the game's other characters. He trades off speed for strength, like most other super heavies.

You just don't get close enough for him to throw them out. You can bait bad wifi Ganons into throwing out smash attacks and you have so much time to punish them with whatever you want. Zoners make life for this guy not fun because the only way he can deal with good projectiles are jumping over them or picking a defensive option. He also has one of the worst recoveries in the game, catch his jump offstage and he's done for.

And the Nairo comparison isn't really fair. He mostly plays Ganondorf in friendlies and online, and the pros he plays generally don't try as hard as they do in tournament in those arenas. The Light set was pretty awesome, but since then, his Ganon hasn't really been seen as much when he plays seriously. He's also godlike at getting reads, and Ganondorf is basically "good reads the character".

When you lose to your average wifi Ganon, he doesn't beat you, you beat yourself. Normally by trying to land on top of him when he's throwing out a strong attack. At least that's what I see people do most often.

He can be stressful to fight in the right hands, but he's basically a gatekeeper character for newer players. If you want to get yourself into that next echelon of play, you gotta know how to beat your average Ganon player, strong smashes or not. Nerfing that stuff would inch him closer to Brawl and Smash 4 Ganon, and those abominations shouldn't be repeated.
 

Mogisthelioma

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#9
Ganondorf's Smash attacks are slower than the speed of dirt forming. If you constantly run into them then you're just inexperienced, end of story.

Anyways, moves that need to be nerfed IMO (some of these are definitely unpopular):

-Pkachu's b-air
-Roy/Lucina's nair
-Remove Peach/Daisy's float cancel and fix their aerial cheats
-Bring back 50% knockback on hits when buried
-Ivysaur's Up B, u-air, d-air, and side B
-Remove Bayo's Bat Within
-Cloud's side B and b-air (but buff his nair for crying out loud)
 

P.Peach

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#10
I have a few moves I think should get nerfed and they are as such. Snakes Neutral special and Nikita because they are way to spammeble and reward sloppy/spammy gameplay. maybe add some more lag on entering Nikita and pulling/throwing a Gernade? Or take it a step further and reduce the launching ability of the gernades as well and make them more or a combo tool then something to throw at will and hope for a lucky launch or kill. Other then these two particular cases I would say roll back some of diddy's buffs because he is looking way to good at the moment, I'm not sure where I would begin with that process but it is concerning how much they buffed him and I fear he will be everywhere taking games like no other.
 

$.A.F.

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#11
I have a few moves I think should get nerfed and they are as such. Snakes Neutral special and Nikita because they are way to spammeble and reward sloppy/spammy gameplay. maybe add some more lag on entering Nikita and pulling/throwing a Gernade? Or take it a step further and reduce the launching ability of the gernades as well and make them more or a combo tool then something to throw at will and hope for a lucky launch or kill. Other then these two particular cases I would say roll back some of diddy's buffs because he is looking way to good at the moment, I'm not sure where I would begin with that process but it is concerning how much they buffed him and I fear he will be everywhere taking games like no other.
Grenade doesn’t kill until like 200+. Also you have to cook them and place them etc. if you want to be “spammy” which is the exact opposite of sloppy. Also what has diddy done to deserve nerfs? You don’t nerf characters because they could probably do something in my opinion. The only win Diddy has on a top player was a first to ten WiFi money match. Stop begging for nerfs on things that aren’t problematic
 

Crucible

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#12
Doriyah is frame 30. For God’s sake.
29 actually and with the 6 frame minimum input lag online it’s not that hard to make a mistake and get hit by its enormous and ridiculously strong hitbox... I realize it is slow but my point is all it takes is one to hit and you’re basically done. Maybe I play too much WiFi..
 

Love Tap

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#14
1) Pk thunder. I would simply make the ball easier to disable with a hitbox.

2) Lucina's shield break, I'd like it to have a bit more end lag.

3) Rob's spin dash. The hitbox is huge and stays out forever, you can't really challenge it, and has good shield pressure. I've played countless robs and I still have trouble timing the punish correctly. Not sure what would be a reasonable nerf, though. I'd probably just reduce the distance or add some kind of visual cue to better indicate where the hitbox ends, like the steaks rob cuts through the air being more pronounced or something. I don't know.

And this is just me. If you quote me and argue why these nerfs would be bad because pros can deal with them, you're the worst lol.
 

$.A.F.

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#15
29 actually and with the 6 frame minimum input lag online it’s not that hard to make a mistake and get hit by its enormous and ridiculously strong hitbox... I realize it is slow but my point is all it takes is one to hit and you’re basically done. Maybe I play too much WiFi..
It’s definitely your fault online or not if you get hit by a frame 30 move. Falcon punch is also slow but one hit KOs, LeT’s NeRf ThAt ToO! If you are getting doriyahed consistently your opponent is outplaying you.
 
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#16
Splat Roller, Snake’s up tilt, Thunder, Flip Jump, and Nikita are the moves that immediately come to mind. Double-Edge Dance also probably shouldn’t be as absurdly strong as it is, but that one’s a little more situational than the others I’ve mentioned.
 

Mogisthelioma

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#17
29 actually and with the 6 frame minimum input lag online it’s not that hard to make a mistake and get hit by its enormous and ridiculously strong hitbox... I realize it is slow but my point is all it takes is one to hit and you’re basically done. Maybe I play too much WiFi..
29 is still super long. It's easy to be hit by it if your opponent is better than you. You are being outplayed by your opponents. The move should be buffed if anything.
 

Crucible

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#18
User was warned for this post; flaming
It’s definitely your fault online or not if you get hit by a frame 30 move. Falcon punch is also slow but one hit KOs, LeT’s NeRf ThAt ToO! If you are getting doriyahed consistently your opponent is outplaying you.
Lol you’re right. You’ve never been hit by one. All hail the wisdom of the 13-year old. Thanks for coming to condescendingly argue with a post about my opinions and not contributing to the topic.
 

$.A.F.

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#19
Lol you’re right. You’ve never been hit by one. All hail the wisdom of the 13-year old. Thanks for coming to condescendingly argue with a post about my opinions and not contributing to the topic.
When did I ever claim that? I’ve definitely been hit by the move. Probably ~100+ times in fact. I’ll still maintain that being hit by a move especially one that slow consistently is evidence of your opponent outplaying you. Getting caught a couple times is a 50-50. Maybe you were just caught off guard. But again if your opponent is both hitting you with F smash and winning consistently, you’re invariably being outplayed. This move carries nobody. Ganondorf only carries bad players against other bad players. Mid level and above he’s average or worse. Stop straw manning me. And also ad hominem.....really? You couldn’t counter literally anything in my argument so you attempted to discredit me because I’m younger than you? Being good at smash doesn’t have an age requirement and neither does the maturity you clearly lack. And finally I’d argue I contributed far more than you to the topic. I argued that we shouldn’t try and get moves nerfed because we lose to them but rather their impact on the meta. You tried to argue that Ganondorf f smash should be nerfed because you get hit by it on WiFi. You then tried to argue that a frame 29 move is fast and that we should balance based on your home WiFi. Don’t bs me.
 
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#20
Lol you’re right. You’ve never been hit by one. All hail the wisdom of the 13-year old. Thanks for coming to condescendingly argue with a post about my opinions and not contributing to the topic.
Their post was clear and concise and you responded with insults. People have offered you good advice and you ignore it hoping that someone will agree with you. If anything you're the thirteen year old here. Ad hominem arguments are a pretty obvious sign that you're getting salty over this.

Yes, people get hit by Ganon's F-Smash. It's because their opponent outplayed them. Nothing else. But the move comes out super late and leaves Ganon open to punish options. It's totally unsafe on shield. It's not overpowered. Learn to read and punish.
 
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$.A.F.

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#21
Their post was clear and concise and you responded with insults. People have offered you good advice and you ignore it hoping that someone will agree with you. If anything you're the thirteen year old here. Ad hominem arguments are a pretty obvious sign that you're getting salty over this.

Yes, people get hit by Ganon's F-Smash. It's because their opponent outplayed them. Nothing else. But the move comes out super late and leaves Ganon open to punish options. It's totally unsafe on shield. It's not overpowered. Learn to read and punish.
He was right about me being 13 though
 

Crucible

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#22
When did I ever claim that? I’ve definitely been hit by the move. Probably ~100+ times in fact. I’ll still maintain that being hit by a move especially one that slow consistently is evidence of your opponent outplaying you. Getting caught a couple times is a 50-50. Maybe you were just caught off guard. But again if your opponent is both hitting you with F smash and winning consistently, you’re invariably being outplayed. This move carries nobody. Ganondorf only carries bad players against other bad players. Mid level and above he’s average or worse. Stop straw manning me. And also ad hominem.....really? You couldn’t counter literally anything in my argument so you attempted to discredit me because I’m younger than you? Being good at smash doesn’t have an age requirement and neither does the maturity you clearly lack. And finally I’d argue I contributed far more than you to the topic. I argued that we shouldn’t try and get moves nerfed because we lose to them but rather their impact on the meta. You tried to argue that Ganondorf f smash should be nerfed because you get hit by it on WiFi. You then tried to argue that a frame 29 move is fast and that we should balance based on your home WiFi. Don’t bs me.
In my third post to this thread I acknowledged that the move IS slow... I also acknowledged that “maybe I play too much WiFi...” and you responded mocking me with “LeTs NerF thAT ToO”... lol a nerf can be a 1 frame longer endlag. But whatever admittedly, maybe I’m wrong, but you totally went about it the wrong way or maybe I just misinterpreted it and sorry for referring to your age as an indicator for lack of wisdom.
 

Crucible

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#23
Ganondorf's Smash attacks are slower than the speed of dirt forming. If you constantly run into them then you're just inexperienced, end of story.

Anyways, moves that need to be nerfed IMO (some of these are definitely unpopular):

-Pkachu's b-air
-Roy/Lucina's nair
-Remove Peach/Daisy's float cancel and fix their aerial cheats
-Bring back 50% knockback on hits when buried
-Ivysaur's Up B, u-air, d-air, and side B
-Remove Bayo's Bat Within
-Cloud's side B and b-air (but buff his nair for crying out loud)
29 is still super long. It's easy to be hit by it if your opponent is better than you. You are being outplayed by your opponents. The move should be buffed if anything.
https://youtu.be/r3yVDf0Qizc

Fatality literally agrees Ganon’s smashes deserve to be nerfed.
 

Sean²

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#24
https://youtu.be/r3yVDf0Qizc

Fatality literally agrees Ganon’s smashes deserve to be nerfed.
For a seemingly different reason for why you are saying they need nerfed.

He is talking about reworking the character to make him less reliant on people messing up and running into strong attacks for his entire gameplan. Nerf the smashes, but give him buffs to give him an actual neutral to work with, make his disadvantage less squishy, and make his advantage more than just landing stray hits. All that stuff with the powerful smashes remaining as-is could make him ridiculous to deal with.

In reality, he's talking about possible changes to make the character better overall and give him QOL changes to make him more playable at every level, but not making him an OP monster at the same time. You have said you think it's too powerful, and you make mistakes and die from being hit by them so they should be nerfed. Crazy difference in reasoning.
 

Crucible

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#25
For a seemingly different reason for why you are saying they need nerfed.

He is talking about reworking the character to make him less reliant on people messing up and running into strong attacks for his entire gameplan. Nerf the smashes, but give him buffs to give him an actual neutral to work with, make his disadvantage less squishy, and make his advantage more than just landing stray hits. All that stuff with the powerful smashes remaining as-is could make him ridiculous to deal with.

In reality, he's talking about possible changes to make the character better overall and give him QOL changes to make him more playable at every level, but not making him an OP monster at the same time. You have said you think it's too powerful, and you make mistakes and die from being hit by them so they should be nerfed. Crazy difference in reasoning.
When did I say his other characteristics didn’t deserve to be buffed? I said his smashes are too powerful, too long-ranged and too disjointed and that it was frustrating to die to them from one mistake or mis input at low percent.. that’s it. And a professional player agrees...
 

$.A.F.

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#26
When did I say his other characteristics didn’t deserve to be buffed? I said his smashes are too powerful, too long-ranged and too disjointed and that it was frustrating to die to them from one mistake or mis input at low percent.. that’s it. And a professional player agrees...
He said that they only would need a nerf if they significantly buffed basically all his other aspects
 

Crucible

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#27
He said that they only would need a nerf if they significantly buffed basically all his other aspects
And that’s totally fine I never said other parts of his toolkit don’t deserve a buff I only said his smashes deserve a nerf in my opinion
 

Sean²

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#29
When did I say his other characteristics didn’t deserve to be buffed? I said his smashes are too powerful, too long-ranged and too disjointed and that it was frustrating to die to them from one mistake or mis input at low percent.. that’s it. And a professional player agrees...
You didn't, but it's highly suggested from the nature of the thread and your attitude towards it thus far.
 

TheDuke54

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#30
That one sword mii figther move that zips across half the platform probably should be nerfed. It's recovery is crazy and some can spam it to one side to the other and deal enough damage with it. I don't know what it is called, but the sword fighter spins around like Sonic and flies through the air in a linear pattern.
 
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