Movement for more backroom members

SheerMadness

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#1
There simply isn't enough productive discussion going on in here. We have 1 active thread in the month + the backroom has been open. We need more intelligent posters.

Anyone else agree with me here?
 
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#2
I actually disagree with this. Quality over quantity, IMO. We may have only had one active thread so far, but it was a very good thread. We just need to brainstorm more ideas to discuss.
 

SheerMadness

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#3
There are plenty of other intelligent ssb64 posters who aren't in the backroom. Including them would move things along much more quickly. I think the only requirements the ssb64 backroomers should posses are being intelligent posters and decent experience playing competitive ssb64. I disagree that only elite level players should be let in.

And sorry A$ but your quality over quantity theory has already been disproved as they allowed one of the biggest ssb64 trolls in the backroom already.
 

Marc

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#4
Before admitting new members there should be a clear plan of what this BR is going to do. Stage discussion has been good, but there still hasn't been a ruleset release. New members means more activity, but only if there is some kind of goal. IMO this room needs to focus on getting the ruleset out first, because if that much can't happen with a small group, it will only get more hectic with more people. After that has been pushed out, there could be consideration of new applications, though it's rather soon considering this room has been active for like one month.
 
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#5
The only reason there hasn't been much discussion is there's been nothing to discuss, not because of not enough members. Most of us kind of agreed on the three stage set, and then we didn't really have anything to talk about. Nobody wanted to talk about Peach's Castle/Zebes because people don't play on there enough. I doubt more members would have made it much better.
 
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#6
And sorry A$ but your quality over quantity theory has already been disproved as they allowed one of the biggest ssb64 trolls in the backroom already.
If you're talking about s2j, he has posted well before, and sticks in my memory as a person who actually criticises constructively. His application showed he could write properly and earnestly, and he so far has not detracted from discussion, nor do I believe he will.

If you're talking about fireblaster, his logical reasoning is excellent and there was no reason not to admit him because his flaring only occurred when noobs posted clearly incorrect opinions and refused to listen to others.

Allowing a mass of people in is not a good idea, and at the moment there are maybe 2 or 3 people, excluding malva, who I would even begin to consider for the backroom, which is hardly going to change things.

The member admission process will re-commence in March regardless.
 

dandan

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#8
I think we have a timeline to do stuff, iirc there after the recommended ruleset there will be match up discussions or something in that manner.
I would wait for funk to return from morocco and his tourney in sweden (I think he is returning tomorrow or the day after that), for starting the matchup discussion because he has some clear ideas about that and is really eager on pushing it forward.
 

s2j

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#9
There are plenty of other intelligent ssb64 posters who aren't in the backroom. Including them would move things along much more quickly. I think the only requirements the ssb64 backroomers should posses are being intelligent posters and decent experience playing competitive ssb64. I disagree that only elite level players should be let in.

And sorry A$ but your quality over quantity theory has already been disproved as they allowed one of the biggest ssb64 trolls in the backroom already.
where did dmoogle say anything about elite level players?

theres a few imo that would be fine and i'm pretty sure they didn't get in simply because they don't care too much about the backroom itself. Darth Fox, JaimeHR, Peek, eCartman, Gustav Wind( haven't heard of him from 64 in a while) come to mind

other than that theres not a good number of decent backroom members imo. Battlecow for example has 30 paragraph descriptions for a simple concept and talks like he's trying to get an A on an english paper by loading it with fluff and ridiculous vocabulary. Imagine Koro on steroids. would you like members who type 1000 words for 1 thing? would you like a lot of subpar discussion or less, yet good discussoin?

Quality over Quantity

i can make a laundry list of some notable 64 people on the boards and say WHY i don't think they belong but don't think this is really the place for that

in other words, don't support this lol although a few in a few months is fine
 

SheerMadness

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#10
Looks like nobody else thinks we need more members. Fair enough.

If you're talking about s2j, he has posted well before, and sticks in my memory as a person who actually criticises constructively. His application showed he could write properly and earnestly, and he so far has not detracted from discussion, nor do I believe he will.

If you're talking about fireblaster, his logical reasoning is excellent and there was no reason not to admit him because his flaring only occurred when noobs posted clearly incorrect opinions and refused to listen to others.
Fireblaster can be a condescending @sshole but yah I was referring to s2j. He CAN post intelligently and he has thus far in the backroom but the past 2 years on the normal board all he did was bash online players and ssb64 when he would actually post. Which confuses me as to why he would apply to be in the backroom and why you guys would let him in. Most other people were confused by it too when the thread revealing the inductees was first made (but Surri closed the thread pretty quickly).

I have no problem with his posts in the backroom, they've been fine. It's just dumb that he got in over other people after being a giant flaming troll the past 2 years.
 
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#11
As I stated before, his application showed that he was competent, and I think he himself acknowledged he was a trolling dude in the app itself. This was followed by him stating he would actually attempt to contribute properly, which he has so far done. He's also been acceptably active, which was what I was worried about.

While his contributions are old and are far outnumbered by those of other people, they stick in my memory as relevant and concise, and disregarding the trolling aspect, I believe he's a better candidate than many of the non-trolling others we didn't let in.
 

Marc

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#14
A MU Chart would be very feasible, considering there are only 12 characters to take care of. The BBR is currently creating one for the very first time under my supervision, but you can imagine what a behemoth project this is with 37 characters (666 matchups not counting dittos...). Many other fighting game scenes use them as a basis for their tier lists, which it's probably a bit too early for, but it's a very solid foundation for statistics provided matchups are established and agreed upon. You do need to consider whether you have enough representation on board for the entire cast before doing this or at least be open to using some outside resources.
 

King Funk

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#15
A MU Chart would be very feasible, considering there are only 12 characters to take care of. The BBR is currently creating one for the very first time under my supervision, but you can imagine what a behemoth project this is with 37 characters (666 matchups not counting dittos...). Many other fighting game scenes use them as a basis for their tier lists, which it's probably a bit too early for, but it's a very solid foundation for statistics provided matchups are established and agreed upon. You do need to consider whether you have enough representation on board for the entire cast before doing this or at least be open to using some outside resources.
Not a matchup chart. Real matchup discussion.

Like guides to every single matchup in the game, explaining them on both sides, for new players to be able to learn all the theoretical knowledge they want. Will the matchup chart really help a Samus player up against Fox on Hyrule? "Oh great, the matchup is 20-80, I damn sure learned a lot from what the BR told me!". I think the BR should focus less on completely uninteresting stuff like that and rather give something good to the community. And with 12 characters, it is quite very feasible.

1. Explain how the matchup unravels
2. What does character 1 have to do to win?
3. What does character 2 have to do to win?
4. Which stages favor which characters/CP options
5. Matchup ratio (not really necessary)

If we can do 78 discussions (including dittos) following that pattern, we can make a full guide to any matchup in Smash 64, made officially by the 64BR, something that has never been done before and would be a great contribution to everyone.
 

s2j

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#16
i don't agree with telling people how to play a matchup

there's things to look out for but i feel that most are going to tell people to camp their opponent

plus there are often more than one way to play a matchup, having a "best" way i don't agree with
 

King Funk

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#17
i don't agree with telling people how to play a matchup

there's things to look out for but i feel that most are going to tell people to camp their opponent

plus there are often more than one way to play a matchup, having a "best" way i don't agree with
Obviously there's room for alternatives. We wouldn't limit ourselves on one way and one way only of playing a matchup. The more ideas the better of course. And there is indeed no "best way", your opponent's style of play is very important too and you have to adapt to it. But all that can be said in a simple introduction.

We're not forcing people to play the matchup the way we tell them. Neither are we forcing them to use the rules we just made for them. It's all just "recommended".

I still think full matchup discussion is a good contribution to the community. Hearing better players' opinions on how to play a matchup will not make me know it automatically but I might learn a bit from it.
 
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#18
Comprehensive stuff on matchups is something that would seriously take up a lot of time, and seems far too ambitious. Doing both sides at once is just asking for chaos - saying that, for example, Ness can DJC U-Air juggle DK very easily is countered by DK using Up-B and spacing his grabs so Ness never gets close. It becomes an enormous theorycraft war.

I think the best thing to do would be to do the matchups from one character's perspective at a time, eg. do Yoshi's matchups and release 3 at a time, giving some basic combos that work, things to avoid, etc. It's essentially the stuff that most guides to a character have, but it'll be a communal effort.
 

King Funk

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#19
Comprehensive stuff on matchups is something that would seriously take up a lot of time, and seems far too ambitious. Doing both sides at once is just asking for chaos - saying that, for example, Ness can DJC U-Air juggle DK very easily is countered by DK using Up-B and spacing his grabs so Ness never gets close. It becomes an enormous theorycraft war.

I think the best thing to do would be to do the matchups from one character's perspective at a time, eg. do Yoshi's matchups and release 3 at a time, giving some basic combos that work, things to avoid, etc. It's essentially the stuff that most guides to a character have, but it'll be a communal effort.
Yeah we don't need to do both sides at the same time. However, what I meant about it is not "this character has to do this and the other one will counter with that", but rather "you, as a player, should beware of this and that, try and do this and that, etc.".

One character at a time is fine though.

Any idea when we can start this project?
 
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#20
Sometime early in February.

Before that, a 'Head Director' is to be elected. He and the current leadership group will be in charge of organising projects. See the doctrine for more.

With that, there'll be a bit more responsibility spread around. I won't even be around for this vote, since I'm going back to China for the new year and hence will be forcing all the responsibility onto someone.
 
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#21
Do we really need Head Directors and such? Why can't we just decide collectively what to do next, seeing as how there are only 12 members? i.e. the idea King Funk just brought up, if most people seem to agree to do it then we will.

Most of the Officer positions seem kind of unnecessary to me, especially stuff like the Director of Member Relations, who's only job seems to be dealing with conflicts between Backroom members. I don't really see enough of these conflicts happening to justify the creation of an entire officer position just to deal with that; in fact, call me optimistic, but I could see virtually no conflicts at all.
 
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#22
I brought up that particular objection with JV myself, but in the end I just lapsed into acceptance. These offices are for the brawl backroom, which has 70~ members. If everyone else here is alright with just me, Surri and Boom 'leading', as in heading/organising discussion topics, then I don't think any other offices are necessary.
 

King Funk

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#24
I can make the matchup discussion threads without really needing to be the leader of anything. We're just 12 people so we don't need bureaucracy to work well imo. =)
 

s2j

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#25
Obviously there's room for alternatives. We wouldn't limit ourselves on one way and one way only of playing a matchup. The more ideas the better of course. And there is indeed no "best way", your opponent's style of play is very important too and you have to adapt to it. But all that can be said in a simple introduction.

We're not forcing people to play the matchup the way we tell them. Neither are we forcing them to use the rules we just made for them. It's all just "recommended".

I still think full matchup discussion is a good contribution to the community. Hearing better players' opinions on how to play a matchup will not make me know it automatically but I might learn a bit from it.
yeah ur right actually

guess i just don't like the defensive metagame I experience whenever i play atm
 

King Funk

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#27
*sorry for double post and bump*

Isn't it in April that we are opening the registration again?

Also, do any of you have any idea who should come in the BR in the next round?
 
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#28
According to my incomplete doctrine, new members will be discussed on :marth: 15. I basically copypasted the brawl doctrine and modded it, so I'm thinking just one week of discussion will be enough. Boom, Surri and I will discuss candidates and will probably post the preliminary list of candidates. Any number of objections to any candidate will affect our final decision.

We don't yet have any offices for admission or projects, etc, so for this round, we'll handle the initial and final discussion, but will take your input into account. If anyone is interested in taking the office for admissions, please say so and you'll be put in the 'council' of sorts in admission discussion.

Is everybody okay with this?
 

King Funk

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#29
According to my incomplete doctrine, new members will be discussed on :marth: 15. I basically copypasted the brawl doctrine and modded it, so I'm thinking just one week of discussion will be enough. Boom, Surri and I will discuss candidates and will probably post the preliminary list of candidates. Any number of objections to any candidate will affect our final decision.

We don't yet have any offices for admission or projects, etc, so for this round, we'll handle the initial and final discussion, but will take your input into account. If anyone is interested in taking the office for admissions, please say so and you'll be put in the 'council' of sorts in admission discussion.

Is everybody okay with this?
Is there any possible way to do nominations?
 

King Funk

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#31
I'm gonna vote for:
- Mahie -> one of the best (if not the best) European players and extremely knowledgeable in all areas and characters.
- Peek -> great Ness player and can probably provide a lot of matchup experience
- thekuzinator -> excellent debater, very active and knowledgeable
 
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#32
High activity seems to be something more valuable at the moment than having perfect knowledge - people can correct one another if need be - but good knowledge is still a necessity.

Mahie seems even less active than s2j.
Peek and Kuz, I have no objections to.
Does Frogles have any interest in this
What about MarioReincarnate, Tambor, ciaza and Blue Yoshi?
I would mention BHLMRO but he appears to have stopped posting on 64 altogether.

BestSamusEver is a shoo-in of course, not even worse mentioning

oh right, and malva

tempt him with the postbit lol
 

King Funk

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#33
High activity seems to be something more valuable at the moment than having perfect knowledge - people can correct one another if need be - but good knowledge is still a necessity.

Mahie seems even less active than s2j.
Peek and Kuz, I have no objections to.
Does Frogles have any interest in this
What about MarioReincarnate, Tambor, ciaza and Blue Yoshi?
I would mention BHLMRO but he appears to have stopped posting on 64 altogether.

BestSamusEver is a shoo-in of course, not even worse mentioning

oh right, and malva

tempt him with the postbit lol
Malva should be automatically in imo. >_>

Mahie is not very active but I'm pretty sure he'd be if he was in the BR. He just doesn't find many subjects of interest to him in the Smash 64 Discussion forum (and neither did I before I joined the back room). I can recommend him for being quite good at explaining matchups, he also plays all characters at a pretty good level and has experience in so many aspects of the game. I could say the same about Craiigg, but Craiigg is even less active and far less motivated about the BR, whereas Mahie personally told me he was quite interested in participating.
 
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#34
Except for extreme exceptions, I feel that there should be a minimum skill requirement to be able to join the backroom, and I don't really feel like any of the people asianaussie mentioned meet that requirement. Are backroom members (not leaders) allowed to view members' applications? Those can be a turning point.
 

SuPeRbOoM

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#35
Except for extreme exceptions, I feel that there should be a minimum skill requirement to be able to join the backroom, and I don't really feel like any of the people asianaussie mentioned meet that requirement. Are backroom members (not leaders) allowed to view members' applications? Those can be a turning point.
Mahie seems even less active than s2j.
Peek and Kuz, I have no objections to.
Does Frogles have any interest in this
What about MarioReincarnate, Tambor, ciaza and Blue Yoshi?
I would mention BHLMRO but he appears to have stopped posting on 64 altogether.

BestSamusEver is a shoo-in of course, not even worse mentioning

oh right, and malva
......huh? Looks like none of us are qualified then.

But really, we'll be discussing this over this week and get a list going.
 
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#36
Besides him, of course. :p

DannySSB comes to mind. Of course, I've only ever played him at some ridiculously high frame delay, but I get the impression that he's pretty good. JaimeHR too (or is he already in? I don't remember him posting in here... he probably just didn't apply).
 
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#37
Actual playing skill is not the absolute necessity for it - I just want intelligent and interested people to post and get good discussion going, because at least half the backroom seems unwilling to start discussion, but will contribute once it gets started.

If the minimum skill requirement is about your level, then I shouldn't even be in. Looks like I'm out guys, have fun running this :urg:

jaime has no interest or was too inactive to register interest...dunno about danny though...
 

King Funk

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#38
I know I'm gonna sound like Captain J. Douglas obvious, but a bit of both is the best, right?

Mahie is an excellent player, better than dandan and me. He barely ever posts on the 64 discussion, and even though he didn't ever really try to prove it there, he's a very intelligent poster and can explain his ideas about the game clearly and efficiently. This comes from my experience of nearly 2 years of talking to him on MSN about 64 and all there is to it almost every day. I probably wouldn't be here if I didn't benefit from all he taught and showed me. The only real reason he didn't apply for the Back Room is because he had to move to another place, which lead to him not having an internet connection for a very long while. It's only recently that he came back to the Smash64 Europe chat, and now he's fully active as a player again. And as I said, he's very interested in participating in the BR and will definitely post his application once he's given the green light to do so.

We might soon start the Fox matchup discussions, and I can imagine Mahie contributing a lot to them (Fox being his main and his knowledge and versatility as a Fox player).
 
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#39
Except for extreme exceptions, I feel that there should be a minimum skill requirement to be able to join the backroom, and I don't really feel like any of the people asianaussie mentioned meet that requirement. Are backroom members (not leaders) allowed to view members' applications? Those can be a turning point.
I'm curious if you would say that I meet this minimum skill requirement.


Also isn't Frogles really good?
 
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