More echoes down the line?...

maxistrife

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
61
#1
I do not see this topic really expanded on, and even some of my favorite and thorough YouTubers have not talked about it, but while Sakurai said the 5 DLC characters are all gonna be brand new, from the ground up characters, there is no mention of further echo launches. I do not recall it being touched on either by Sakurai as far as future echoes go. I mean....ASIDE from the 5 DLC characters, we can add MASSIVELY to the roster with pure echoes who would require little to no additional work. Shadow, Octolings, Demise, one of 50 fire emblem characters (but please no), Black Bull (or what was his name? Blood Falcon?), Dry Bowser...the list can go on and on! What is everyone's thoughts on them surprising us by releasing an equal or even greater number of echoes compared to the paid DLC?
 

maxistrife

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
61
#3
Actually i'm pretty sure Sakurai specifically said there would be no DLC Echo fighters.
He said he was not talking about echoes when referencing PAID DLC....BUT...what is stopping them from being like "hey guys, SURPRISE, next week you can play as (insert perfect/SUPER similar echo here).....as they would not take much time to whip up if they are perfect or near perfect echoes.
 

TMNTSSB4

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
10,567
Location
John Cena
3DS FC
3368-4469-9312
NNID
No More
#4
Can’t see echoes being any sort of dlc unless Sakurai doesn’t work on them (the man is already doing 6 fully unique dlc characters that’ll bring us up to 80 characters total)
 
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,542
Location
Santa Ana, CA
#5
When they announced the idea of echo fighters, I thought to myself "oh, they're going to go wild with this for DLC". Smash 4 had 36 Mii costumes. They take a decent amount of time to make too. You need to make sure they look right with a variety of different mii faces and proportions. Particle effects for the Gunner are often unique and I doubt those costumes made a nice sum of money beyond enthusiasts of particular characters. But the decision to not have paid for echo fighters blindsided me. I think the wording definitely leaves echo fighters on the table for free dlc, but I'm not counting on it.

There's a lot we could potentially see added to the game beyond the five Fighter sets. And I just don't feel like there's any obvious ideas for echos that feel true to that character. Maybe a free echo will be released at the same time as a relevant Newcomer. Like, say, if Rex were added, then they throw in a Malos echo fighter of Shulk because they just had excess dev time. But if you don't buy Rex, you still get the echo. I doubt the Fighter sets will end up with more content than what was promised.
 

osby

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
5,444
#6
He said he was not talking about echoes when referencing PAID DLC....BUT...what is stopping them from being like "hey guys, SURPRISE, next week you can play as (insert perfect/SUPER similar echo here).....as they would not take much time to whip up if they are perfect or near perfect echoes.
Because regardless of their moveset, you need to negotiate characters. You have to model them, voice them, program them and ask modelling team to work on characters that brings no unique play styles and won't bring you any money.

This is not smart, no matter how you look at it.
 

^sudoZELDA^

Patience Is Power
Premium
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
426
Location
California, US
NNID
dinobotisland
#7
Yea, he could have another suprise down his sleeve before the game realeses with a new echo fighter, but he said that this the final roster. Except for dlc

Now, in the direct, he said that the rest of the chracters that are coming will not be echoes, so i just dont see him making new echoes being possible. I think we are getting 5 new chracters, like he said, and thats it. But who knows, Sakurai is full of suprises.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
544
3DS FC
2105-8742-2099
NNID
Nelson340
Switch FC
SW 4265 6024 9719
#9
The option to stack echoes seems like a precaution for more being added.
 

wingedarcher7

The PSI Powerhouse
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
365
Location
Miami, Florida
3DS FC
3411-2028-1159
NNID
speedstar623
#15
I'm sure there's a decent amount of effort that goes into making Echo Fighters. These characters are getting their own voice acting, taunts, final smashes, and having to actually design and create the character in the first place. I don't personally see us getting anything new on the roster besides the planned 5 DLC characters and Piranha Plant, but I'd like to be wrong.

Join the club!

Anyway, Sakurai stated during the direct that all of these fighters were started from scratch, meaning they're unique movesets. Besides, no one is going to pay $6 for a clone.
I can honestly see a lot of people paying for Shadow the Hedgehog even if he was an echo fighter.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
544
3DS FC
2105-8742-2099
NNID
Nelson340
Switch FC
SW 4265 6024 9719
#16
I'm sure there's a decent amount of effort that goes into making Echo Fighters. These characters are getting their own voice acting, taunts, final smashes, and having to actually design and create the character in the first place.
They all have varying levels of effort put into them, with the minimal amount being entrance, taunt, victory, and one attack animation. We're never gonna get an echo like Ken again if more echoes are added later.
 
Last edited:

Arthur97

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
933
#19
I don't think it's impossible given the wording. They won't be in the packs (unless thrown in as extra), but I don't think it was ruled out entirely. After all, Nintendo apparently gave Sakurai a list to choose from. Perhaps some will get the echo treatment.
 

Oddball

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
466
#20
Anyway, Sakurai stated during the direct that all of these fighters were started from scratch, meaning they're unique movesets. Besides, no one is going to pay $6 for a clone.
If it's a cool character, I would.

I can honestly see a lot of people paying for Shadow the Hedgehog even if he was an echo fighter.
I said a cool character.
 

TJ-Works

Smash Hero
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
5,791
Location
UK
#21
I don't see them adding echoes on the side. The developing team is probably exhausted after putting together Ultimate, so the 5 DLC character are the most they're willing to manage before wrapping up. I'd rather have them focus their creativity and energy on making 5 unique characters, nothing more.

Besides, the base roster + :ultpiranha: + 5 DLC brings the roster total to 80, which is a nice round number.
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
606
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
RetrogamerMax2
#22
I do hope Nintendo or Sakurai decides to add more Echo Fighters after the first DLC pack because there are still plenty of options left for a Echo Fighters. For example:

Donkey Kong - Funky Kong

Palutena - Medusa

Sonic - Metal Sonic

Ness - Ninten

Bowser - Dry Bowser

Ganondorf - Demise

Zelda - Hilda

It would be easy money for Nintendo to make and put all these characters in a DLC pack in a short amount of time.
 

lucasla

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2018
Messages
179
#23
I think that there are some echoes that they could easily develop with minimum effort, like Shadow, that could be just Sonic with a black color, just a different skin and minimal differences... they could just copy and past sonic and change his skin and name and that's it, new echo.
 
Last edited:

Yosher

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
620
Location
Yoshi's Island, of course
NNID
Yosher
#24
I think that there are some echoes that they could easily develop with minimum effort, like Shadow, that could be just Sonic with a black color, just a different skin and minimal differences... they could just copy and past sonic and change his skin and name and that's it, new echo.
It's really not that simple. They have to bring in Shadow's voice actor to do voice lines as well, not to mention bringing the announcer in to say 'Shadow!' for when selecting him and the victory screen, and making him move exactly like Sonic wouldn't fit Shadow, they would have to make some new/altered animations here and there to better fit the character. Aside from that, they also put great attention to the character select portrait and all of its alternate colors. And with him being a third party character, they probably also have to pay Sega for licensing. All of this costs money. Money they would likely easily gain back with all the people who'd buy it, but it could be more trouble than it's worth for them.

Not saying it's impossible, just that it's not as simple as you make it out to be.
 

Arthur97

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
933
#25
It's really not that simple. They have to bring in Shadow's voice actor to do voice lines as well, not to mention bringing the announcer in to say 'Shadow!' for when selecting him and the victory screen, and making him move exactly like Sonic wouldn't fit Shadow, they would have to make some new/altered animations here and there to better fit the character. Aside from that, they also put great attention to the character select portrait and all of its alternate colors. And with him being a third party character, they probably also have to pay Sega for licensing. All of this costs money. Money they would likely easily gain back with all the people who'd buy it, but it could be more trouble than it's worth for them.

Not saying it's impossible, just that it's not as simple as you make it out to be.
They can reuse voice lines. They have to have the announcer do clips for the others, might as well tack one more on. As for Sonic's movements not fitting, look at my picture.
 
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
889
#26
I'm not going to expect more at this point. I think the five DLC announce will be all we're getting for now. There is always possibility for surprises, but I have no reason to expect anything more than what has already been promised.

As for Shadow, he's already an AT, so even if they add more Echoes, it's extremely likely he won't be included.
 

Yosher

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
620
Location
Yoshi's Island, of course
NNID
Yosher
#27
They can reuse voice lines. They have to have the announcer do clips for the others, might as well tack one more on. As for Sonic's movements not fitting, look at my picture.
Good point on the voice lines, but Sega would still have to provide these voice lines to the development team in such a case. As for your picture; I'd wanna argue that Marth's movement already fits Lucina well enough because Marth's animations are elegant enough to also fit a female. I'm sure you'll disagree though, and I am aware that in the actual game, she fights nothing like Marth, but I personally still think it fits for her here.
I'm also not saying they'd have to change a ton of Sonic's animation. Mostly just the idle animations, taunts, victory poses and possibly the dash, maybe the rolls, most everything else could be the same, sort of in-line with the amount of changes Lucina has in her animations, just a tiny bit more. And either way it's still stuff they'd have to change, regardless.
 
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,542
Location
Santa Ana, CA
#28
What if they'd offer potential Echo Fighter for a single dollar, maybe $1.50 or $2? Or a pack of 5 for $4 or $5? I'd pay for that.
If we were being conservative and said echo fighters take twice the amount of effort as Mii costumes, then there'd be 18 of them to correspond with Smash 4's 36 costumes. Though I doubt anybody could compile a list of 18 echo fighter ideas that feel true to the character. But yeah, echo fighters would probably be sold in bulk and at drastically reduced prices. However, again, it sounds like Echo fighters as paid dlc is off the table for Ultimate. Hopefully that means they have their sights set on other, more substantial forms of content or that nobody will ever have to worry about buying echo fighters when they're passed out for free. More skins for existing characters wouldn't go unappreciated either.

I'd wanna argue that Marth's movement already fits Lucina well enough because Marth's animations are elegant enough to also fit a female. I'm sure you'll disagree though, and I am aware that in the actual game, she fights nothing like Marth, but I personally still think it fits for her here.
In her game of origin, there is only one character that shares animations with Lucina and it's Marth. It's also no accident that she's dressed as Marth either since she's a Marth impersonator. It's her characterization. Going strictly off canon, it makes sense to emulate that connection for Smash. By comparison Chrom is the real head scratcher, as he has nothing in common with Roy.
 

Arthur97

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
933
#29
If we were being conservative and said echo fighters take twice the amount of effort as Mii costumes, then there'd be 18 of them to correspond with Smash 4's 36 costumes. Though I doubt anybody could compile a list of 18 echo fighter ideas that feel true to the character. But yeah, echo fighters would probably be sold in bulk and at drastically reduced prices. However, again, it sounds like Echo fighters as paid dlc is off the table for Ultimate. Hopefully that means they have their sights set on other, more substantial forms of content or that nobody will ever have to worry about buying echo fighters when they're passed out for free. More skins for existing characters wouldn't go unappreciated either.



In her game of origin, there is only one character that shares animations with Lucina and it's Marth. It's also no accident that she's dressed as Marth either since she's a Marth impersonator. It's her characterization. Going strictly off canon, it makes sense to emulate that connection for Smash. By comparison Chrom is the real head scratcher, as he has nothing in common with Roy.
Sharing movesets is simply because they cut corners with the fake characters. If you'll notice, those Marths don't fight like Marth in his own games. They at the very least have completely different neutral stances. If you use the Awakening DLC, that means the Robins can emulate Ike's style. Also, Roy in the same game fights nothing like Marth so continuity fails hard in the DLC. They are clearly not 1 for 1.

And her characterization is not "Female Marth." That misconception is just another reason to hate the cloning.
 
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,542
Location
Santa Ana, CA
#30
Sharing movesets is simply because they cut corners with the fake characters. If you'll notice, those Marths don't fight like Marth in his own games.
Marth has never been...consistent in his depictions. Used to be a sword and shield fighter like Link. But then Sakurai dropped the shield for Melee, and then in the remake of Marth's game they decided to stick with that depiction. And there's only so many ways you can stab somebody so I'm not about to split hairs on those animation differences. Heck, There are several instances in Fire emblem where the same person shows up with new animations in two different games simply because that class just looks different in the new game. Anyway, what I'm saying is, if you play Lucina's game, then having them share a moveset in Smash makes sense since that's how it was in her game. And it should speak volumes that Marth and Lucina have different classes yet the same animations which has never happened to any other duo of characters to my knowledge.

They at the very least have completely different neutral stances.
Like how echo fighters have different neutral stances and taunts? No kidding.

And her characterization is not "Female Marth." That misconception is just another reason to hate the cloning.
I have never said "Female Marth". I said she was impersonating the guy, which is 100% true. Even after the secret is found out. Obviously she's not gender bent Marth, as much as she'd like to be.
 

Arthur97

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
933
#31
Marth has never been...consistent in his depictions. Used to be a sword and shield fighter like Link. But then Sakurai dropped the shield for Melee, and then in the remake of Marth's game they decided to stick with that depiction. And there's only so many ways you can stab somebody so I'm not about to split hairs on those animation differences. Heck, There are several instances in Fire emblem where the same person shows up with new animations in two different games simply because that class just looks different in the new game. Anyway, what I'm saying is, if you play Lucina's game, then having them share a moveset in Smash makes sense since that's how it was in her game. And it should speak volumes that Marth and Lucina have different classes yet the same animations which has never happened to any other duo of characters to my knowledge.


Like how echo fighters have different neutral stances and taunts? No kidding.


I have never said "Female Marth". I said she was impersonating the guy, which is 100% true. Even after the secret is found out. Obviously she's not gender bent Marth, as much as she'd like to be.
Because that was discount Marth. They just used the same animations because it was easy and gave him his own class...because he was Marth I guess. Do not try to use Awakening Marth as any sort of depiction on how he would actually fight never mind the fact Lucina would be hard pressed to actually know how he fought given the time gap between them.

In the end, no, it doesn't make since because in her game, she worked differently. If you want to rep the game itself, then they should still be different because they looked different in their home games. You're taking some liberties with the transitive property when the very same game has contradicting elements like the aforementioned Roy.

And, oh look, she has his stance and not hers. They couldn't even be bothered with that.
 
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,542
Location
Santa Ana, CA
#32
Because that was discount Marth. They just used the same animations because it was easy and gave him his own class...because he was Marth I guess. Do not try to use Awakening Marth as any sort of depiction on how he would actually fight never mind the fact Lucina would be hard pressed to actually know how he fought given the time gap between them.

In the end, no, it doesn't make since because in her game, she worked differently. If you want to rep the game itself, then they should still be different because they looked different in their home games. You're taking some liberties with the transitive property when the very same game has contradicting elements like the aforementioned Roy.

And, oh look, she has his stance and not hers. They couldn't even be bothered with that.
Either the source material matters, or it doesn't. Pick one. I'm not sure what you're trying to say at this point, and I guess this isn't even the place to be talking about it since this is a topic about new content. Not this old 2014 debate.
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
705
#33
I’d totally be down for an Echo Fighter or two to pad out the DLC cycle. Optimally they’d be free, but I’d even take them as independent purchases for a $2 or something.

Especially if we’re going to have larger gaps between characters developed for DLC as is.
 

Arthur97

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
933
#34
Either the source material matters, or it doesn't. Pick one. I'm not sure what you're trying to say at this point, and I guess this isn't even the place to be talking about it since this is a topic about new content. Not this old 2014 debate.
I'm saying, you're comparisons are off. Fake Awakening Marth is not Marth and he fights like Lucina because of technical reasons. Marth Marth fights differently. And saying because they were alike in Awakening even if Marth was inaccurate has holes too because of that inaccuracy and because by that logic Roy should also use Lucina's animations or be completely different in Smash. The they were the same argument doesn't hold water due to the inconsistency nor does the whole she dressed as him thing as she shouldn't even know how he fought.

Okay, I'm done for now.
 

Oddball

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
466
#35
If we were being conservative and said echo fighters take twice the amount of effort as Mii costumes, then there'd be 18 of them to correspond with Smash 4's 36 costumes. Though I doubt anybody could compile a list of 18 echo fighter ideas that feel true to the character.
That sounds like a challenge!

1. Urban Champion (Little Mac echo)
2. Impa (Sheik echo)
3. Dr. Wily and/or Dr. Eggman (Bowser jr Echo)
4. almost any other Belmont character (Simon Belmont echo)
5. Amazon from pro Wrestling (Inceniroar Echo)
6. Shadow (Sonic echo)
7. Sami from the Wars series (Solid Snake eco) ... I would have picked Andy but I think Sami is closer to her body type
8. Captain N (Fox echo)
9. Justin Bailey (Samus echo. Either armored of Zero suit would work)
10. Dixie Kong (Diddy Echo)
11. Funky Kong (Donkey Kong echo)
12. Medusa (Palutena echo)
13. Hilda (Zelda echo)
14. Pious Agustus (Robin Echo)
15. Ms. Pac-Man (Bowser echo) just seeing if you're paying attention
16. Elite Beat Agent (Wii Fit trainer echo) I can see those stretches and exercises being passed off as cheers and dance moves
17. Original Style Jumpman (Mario and/or Luigi echo)
18. as for the 18, practically every fighting game has a Ryu character. Just pick one
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
5,362
Location
Fresno
#36
Quoted from the Final Smash Direct:

"Which means we're leaving the opportunity open to add more fighters as paid DLC. Since we've included every fighter from the past games, that means that there are no more fighters to include, unless we develop new fighters from scratch. And we're not talking about Echo fighters."
 

Arthur97

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
933
#37
Quoted from the Final Smash Direct:

"Which means we're leaving the opportunity open to add more fighters as paid DLC. Since we've included every fighter from the past games, that means that there are no more fighters to include, unless we develop new fighters from scratch. And we're not talking about Echo fighters."
If memory serves, that was for the fighter pass. Even if not, this is Sakurai.
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
3,770
Location
NH, Skype: Smashbroh
NNID
TheRealSmashBro
#40
I do not see this topic really expanded on, and even some of my favorite and thorough YouTubers have not talked about it, but while Sakurai said the 5 DLC characters are all gonna be brand new, from the ground up characters, there is no mention of further echo launches. I do not recall it being touched on either by Sakurai as far as future echoes go. I mean....ASIDE from the 5 DLC characters, we can add MASSIVELY to the roster with pure echoes who would require little to no additional work. Shadow, Octolings, Demise, one of 50 fire emblem characters (but please no), Black Bull (or what was his name? Blood Falcon?), Dry Bowser...the list can go on and on! What is everyone's thoughts on them surprising us by releasing an equal or even greater number of echoes compared to the paid DLC?
I say the more echoes, the merrier.

Go nuts!
 
Top