Monkey Business - Donkey Kong Matchup Thread (Wave 5 - Duck Hunt/Ganon)

[Ninj4pikachu]

I'm not sure what to say about fox/Falco, both matches seem pretty squarely in their favor. We probably do better against Falco though due to his slower speed. And both have a fast fall speed so if we do manage to get first hit in the neutral we can really string together our combos. Dtilt, Dtilt, Dspecial, and Dtilt, dash attack, neutral air, should be pretty staple. Their fall speed also allows us to cargo throw up to headbutt much higher than most the cast. But for any of our combos to work we have to catch them, which is easier said than done. We also don't have a safe way to land back oth the stage against them. I'd say this matchup is 35:65 in foxes favor and 40:60 in falco's.

 

[Thinktron]

I'm not sure what to say about fox/Falco, both matches seem pretty squarely in their favor. We probably do better against Falco though due to his slower speed. And both have a fast fall speed so if we do manage to get first hit in the neutral we can really string together our combos. Dtilt, Dtilt, Dspecial, and Dtilt, dash attack, neutral air, should be pretty staple. Their fall speed also allows us to cargo throw up to headbutt much higher than most the cast. But for any of our combos to work we have to catch them, which is easier said than done. We also don't have a safe way to land back oth the stage against them. I'd say this matchup is 35:65 in foxes favor and 40:60 in falco's.

I agree and with All the buffs Falco got the last patch might even push that rating even more in Falcos favor

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I agree and with All the buffs Falco got the last patch might even push that rating even more in Falcos favor

Meh, Falco got a slightly better neutral game, but his core issues still remain in place because he has lost his infamous lazer cancel techniques that made him good. If he had that lazer back he would hit us harder than fox. But yes the patch probably did more for Falco players than us DK players. But he needed it so I'm not upset. I just wish we had some of the lag cut off our moves

 

[Thinktron]

Meh, Falco got a slightly better neutral game, but his core issues still remain in place because he has lost his infamous lazer cancel techniques that made him good. If he had that lazer back he would hit us harder than fox. But yes the patch probably did more for Falco players than us DK players. But he needed it so I'm not upset. I just wish we had some of the lag cut off our moves

A lot of falcos new patch combos are heavyweight exclusive, plus falcos reflector is a great poking for toll to keep Dk away, and falco having a meteor means going off stage is scarier than anything fox can do. Though the more i think about it you are right with 40/60 since dk has a slightly easier time dealing with falco onstage.

Dk i feel like needs to deal a little more damage, his damage output per hit is about the same as some middleweights. And when comparing dk to bowser and charizard, it just baffles me why hes so much weaker.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

A lot of falcos new patch combos are heavyweight exclusive, plus falcos reflector is a great poking for toll to keep Dk away, and falco having a meteor means going off stage is scarier than anything fox can do. Though the more i think about it you are right with 40/60 since dk has a slightly easier time dealing with falco onstage.

Dk i feel like needs to deal a little more damage, his damage output per hit is about the same as some middleweights. And when comparing dk to bowser and charizard, it just baffles me why hes so much weaker.

Oh ho easy now watch what you say, if sakuri hears that he will do what he did in the last patch. When he adds damage, he usually adds knock back and we want to keep the precious combos we have. Overall I'm happy with the damage and knock back buff in our throws, BUT it did worsen our cargo up throw combos. What we really want is a safe way to land. We can land safer on Falco because he runs so much slower than fox.

But I see where your coming from in the damage issue. But I'd rather him cut off a lot of the ending lag on our moves. I'm ok with the startup and get how to make the most of his speed, but damnet I hate getting punished because DK sits there in lag after everything.

 

[123outerme]

You don't have to be smart to know that the matchup vs is a nightmare. DHD is a projectile character. Not a projectile-based character like Link, but projectile character.

His main damage options are can and clay duck (what I call the frisbee). The fact that DHD's boxing game is horrible means that he has a much more solid reason for camping the entire match. The fact that DK is relatively slow and has a large hurtbox means that catching the darn dog will be a lot of effort. If you can get in on DHD and stay in his face, he's, for the most part, shut down for the rest of the stock, or a good chunk of it.

To beat DHD, perfect shielding, jumping (especially short hops) and approaching with bair are you best options. When you can get an opening (when DHD is offstage, in lag, or, when you're in his face), maximize it as much as you can. Definitely try to stomp, Down B or Fair the Duck Jump. Your smashes either have as much or MORE range than Duck Hunt, and that's his only kill options. DK has more kill options, so try and bait out smashes then punish accordingly.

Good DHDs won't let you in nearly ever, though, so this matchup is difficult. I'd give it a 40:60 in DHD's favor.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

It's worth mentioning that we have a better air game than duck hunt, so if we can keep him off the ground or off stage the game turns in our favor. Though this is easier said than done due to Duck hunt's zoning game.

I'd probably agree to the MU being 40:60 Duck hunt favor.

 

[FullMoon]

Hello DK mains, the Greninja boards are going to revisit this MU: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...k-11-mk-rob-dk-yoshi-8-10-8-17.369356/page-24

We're mainly looking for info on how to play those MUs, so any advice you guys can give would be very appreciated.

 

[Shammonx]

I really could use some info on how to fight Fox as DK.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I really could use some info on how to fight Fox as DK.

When I play against fox I stick to what DK does best, spacing. Fox's tilts have very short range compared to DK's. Not only that but once you hit fox he is very easy to combo due to his fall speed. This means you need to learn to jab lock with your jab and Dtilt. The ding dong combo is very easy to use on fox as well (cargo up throw~>double jump~>Uair) so once you get a hit or grab, it shouldn't be too hard to rack up damage.

Once you have him around 50%-80% you will prolly want to take him offstage if he hasn't figured out how to DI out of ding dong. you can accomplish this by either a string of Bairs at mid %'s or with a strong back throw at higher %'s. Donkey Kong down right walls fox when edge guarding. Get fox off stage and from there deny him the fox-illusion recovery by following him backwards offstage and threatening him with the Bair. If he passes the opportunity to snap the ledge with it you can ledge reset. If he tries to recover low instead you may not be able to reach him with Bair, so instead there are a few different options to mix up your guard. you can Dspecial towards the stage in an attempt to catch his recovery. Alternately you can look for the Dair or Nair. If he still seems to elude your edge guard get him to around 140%-150% and grab him into cargo throw, then immedietly jump towards the blast line and down throw.

Unfortunately this MU doesn't always go our way. Fox is faster and much more mobile and thus our large hurt box makes us combo food. I don't really have much advice on defense. I'd say try and get him to come to you and don't over extend yourself. I would recommend refraining from using any smash attacks unless you get a hard read. You should use Dsmash if he is spamming roll dodge though.

Force him into using his Uspecial and learn to read and predict it's trajectory. Defense on stage, offense off stage I suppose.

 

[Trevor.CND]

I honestly think that the captain Falcón matchup is different now all the buffs and the true combo make the matchup more confortable for dk

 

[ClutchCity]

I don't think DK and Ganon is even close to even now. Feel like DK dominates that match up.

 

[WispBae]

Hey there you silly monkeys! The Doggy boards are discussing this MU and would love your input on it!

Click on this clearly outplayed DK to hop straight to the thread!

 

[Shammonx]

DK vs Ike, what do you guys think?

 

[Dre89]

DK vs Ike, what do you guys think?

Don't know Ike too well, but I know DK wrecks him with grabs. Probably kills him at about 80-90 from a grab too.

 

[Dre89]

Bumping to get discussion going

DHD isn't that bad because he can't kill you until 150 and you get such high reward for getting in on him. He dies at like 73 off a grab. M2K two stocked MVD a little while back, which is the highest level this MU has been played at, at least in the West anyway.

I don't think DK and Ganon is even close to even now. Feel like DK dominates that match up.

DK vs Ganondorf is at least 7-3, possibly 8-2. It was already at least 6-4 before the grab patch but now DK's reward is way higher and he kills him off a grab in the 80's. Ganondorf can't do anything if DK just shields. DK's range also makes it easy to punish anything Ganondirf does, and those punishes are severe because of grab reward. He can also gimp Gamondorf easily too.

Only good things for Ganondorf is that if DK gets greedy and messes up, Ganondorf can wreck him in advantage and can also possibly gimp him.

 

[ClutchCity]

Dk vs Pikachu?

 

[Dre89]

Dk vs Pikachu?

I think it's a bad MU because a lot of DK's strengths get nullified. He's too short to hit with a rising bair, you can't gimp him, and he's really hard to grab. It's also hard to space him out with boxing and bair because he can jolt and chase it or just QA into you.

I find the most common way I grab Pikas is by pivot grabbing predicted QAs.

 

[S_B]

Don't know Ike too well, but I know DK wrecks him with grabs. Probably kills him at about 80-90 from a grab too.

Pretty much this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tS_Ch0xdJQ

 

[ClutchCity]

I think it's a bad MU because a lot of DK's strengths get nullified. He's too short to hit with a rising bair, you can't gimp him, and he's really hard to grab. It's also hard to space him out with boxing and bair because he can jolt and chase it or just QA into you.

I find the most common way I grab Pikas is by pivot grabbing predicted QAs.

I think it's a bad match up. I play a pikachu regularly and the way I win most against him if usually hard reads and catching him on bad options.

But he's hard to gimp, edge guard, rising bairs don't work, can recover from CT stage spikes, combos and has a great advantage state against us.

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar sub-forum is discussing the Donkey Kong matchup. Any input is appreciated.

 

[HoSmash4]

What is DK's matchup versus Sonic like?

 

[Dre89]

What is DK's matchup versus Sonic like?

Absolutely horrible. It's possibly his second worst MU behind ZSS. Sonic can just play reactively for the most part because of the speed disparity. There's very little you can do against a Sonic who just camps you out.

 

[RomanceDawn]

What is DK's matchup versus Sonic like?

I used to think it was the worst thing ever but it's really not. I'd rather play Sonic than a competent Duck Hunt or Robin.

Every player has their things that they like to do, especially Sonics. It's very easy to get combo'd by the Spin Dashes but as long as shield is up, he can't hurt you and you can't hurt him. Once spin dash is over and they do the jump, just wait and see what they do next. Sonic's Nair and homing attack can be punished.

All that Spin Dash canceling is annoying but you just have to stay cool and DO NOT CHASE Sonic with DK.

I honestly think Sonic only has the slightest of advantages against DK. Maybe 45/55 because once you stop chasing him down it becomes a different game for Sonic.

I need help with Robin. I just don't know how to get around the fire and electricity. You can't just power shield because the attacks last so long you will just get hit once the shield goes down. If you hold it, Robin comes in for the grab. If you try to roll away after shielding you still get hit. I can't seem to jump over them and get a punish or anything. What am I supposed to do against him?

 

[Dre89]

I used to think it was the worst thing ever but it's really not. I'd rather play Sonic than a competent Duck Hunt or Robin.

Every player has their things that they like to do, especially Sonics. It's very easy to get combo'd by the Spin Dashes but as long as shield is up, he can't hurt you and you can't hurt him. Once spin dash is over and they do the jump, just wait and see what they do next. Sonic's Nair and homing attack can be punished.

All that Spin Dash canceling is annoying but you just have to stay cool and DO NOT CHASE Sonic with DK.

I honestly think Sonic only has the slightest of advantages against DK. Maybe 45/55 because once you stop chasing him down it becomes a different game for Sonic.

I need help with Robin. I just don't know how to get around the fire and electricity. You can't just power shield because the attacks last so long you will just get hit once the shield goes down. If you hold it, Robin comes in for the grab. If you try to roll away after shielding you still get hit. I can't seem to jump over them and get a punish or anything. What am I supposed to do against him?

DH and Robin are not bad matchups at all. With DH you just have to be patient and powershield stuff. He takes forever to kill you and you have massive reward every time you get in on him. You so much more leeway for error than he does.

Robin is fine once you learn to just RAR over his projectiles. DK is more mobile and has better frame data, so you body him if you get past his stuff. It just seems bad at first because you have to make a conscious effort to play differently than normal.

 

[RomanceDawn]

DH and Robin are not bad matchups at all. With DH you just have to be patient and powershield stuff. He takes forever to kill you and you have massive reward every time you get in on him. You so much more leeway for error than he does.

Robin is fine once you learn to just RAR over his projectiles. DK is more mobile and has better frame data, so you body him if you get past his stuff. It just seems bad at first because you have to make a conscious effort to play differently than normal.

Ok thanks. I feel like I try to power shield Duck Hunt but decent players are always ready for it.

As for Robin, what is RAR? I play semi competitively and still don't know all the terms and such.

 

[Dre89]

Ok thanks. I feel like I try to power shield Duck Hunt but decent players are always ready for it.

As for Robin, what is RAR? I play semi competitively and still don't know all the terms and such.

The trick is to be really patient and not just dash all the time. That's what gives them free damage. It takes longer to shield out of a dash than a walk.

RAR stands for reverse aerial rush. It's basically approaching someone in the air with your back to them. This is a huge part of DK's meta because of how good his bair is (and because of how bad fair is). The idea is you jump over his projectiles and bair him. You need to mix it up though because otherwise he can punish it. For example if he arcfires you can RAR over it, but instead of bairing you can just fast fall so you're now close to him and can pressure him with your close combat options.

 

[RomanceDawn]

The trick is to be really patient and not just dash all the time. That's what gives them free damage. It takes longer to shield out of a dash than a walk.

RAR stands for reverse aerial rush. It's basically approaching someone in the air with your back too them. This is a huge part of DK's meta because of how good his bair is (and because of how bad fair is). The idea is you jump over his projectiles and bair him. You need to mix it up though because otherwise he can punish it. For example if he arcfires you can RAR over it, but instead of baiting you can just fast fall so you're now close to him and can pressure him with your close combat options.

Wait a sec, DK's walk brings up shield faster than his run? Is this with all characters or just DK. I knew running made his shield come up slow but I didn't know walking was faster! Holy smokes! Is this with all characters? Because I feel like dash power shielding with Bowser and Charizard is so much easier. This will help me a ton.

That Robin advice will be handy as well. RAR, I knew that but didn't realize it. I guess I've been attempting that since the game released but I always always tried landing right on top of Robin with a Bair and it always got me punished. I never once thought to land I front of him at a safe distance and pull of moves from there. I blame it on the fact that I just don't get many Robon opponents. I never can really learn from my matches where as I play so many more Sonics, Shieks, and ZSS I'm much more comfortable in those matches.

Thanks for the help.

 

[MacClarence]

Need some help against ZSS, not as tough as I thought she'd be but what are your strategies?

 

[Dre89]

Need some help against ZSS, not as tough as I thought she'd be but what are your strategies?

It's absolutely horrible if ZSS knows the MU. It's easily our worst MU. It's not just that she has several ways to kill you at 50. It's that grab beats every option you have except pre-emptive jumping. Then nair beats a lot of options in the air and is safe on shield.

You just have to RAR a lot and try jump over her grab. But really she does everything you do but better. This is an MU you really need a pocket for.

 

[super fan bros]

I play Bowser but Donkey Kong is one of my secondary. While I think more or less me know about MU, I say not be right and be objective.

In terms of the MU Bowser-Donkey Kong, I would say it is of 50-50. On one side is faster Bowser, more powerful, it now has combos which is great considering the size of DK, greater capacity to kill and and flamethrower are good efficacy against him offstage or Midway. But on the other side Donkey Kong has better combos (as Bowser, this is the ideal given the size of the latter), all air attacks are better than Bowser, has less overall lag in his attacks and can quite easily put his spikes because of the recovery of Bowser.

For the recovery, horizontally that Donkey Kong is better, but Bowser is better than vertically.

After these are two big punching bags and one can bind the other, and will struggle to kill because these are the two heaviest characters of the game (Bowser although slightly heavier).

So 50-50 seems to me to be the best MU

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing Donkey Kong again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404699/

 

[DanDanChan]

Does anyone have advice on the bayonetta matchup? I feel very caged off against the few I've played.

 

[C0rvus]

How's Bowser/DK in the current patch? I know it was in Bowser's favor before because his kill confirm hit for a much wider range of percents than the Ding Ding, but they seem pretty similar now. Is it enough to make it even? What should I be looking for? How does neutral work? I know if I mis-space anything on his shield, it gets blown up by Fortress. Probably just a lot of patience and jabs and bairs I would think.
What stages are best? I probably don't want Battlefield or Dreamland because if I get Flying Slammed, it's gg at like 90%.

 

[Deleted member]

How's Bowser/DK in the current patch? I know it was in Bowser's favor before because his kill confirm hit for a much wider reange of percents than the Ding Ding, but they seem pretty similar now. Is it enough to make it even? What should I be looking for? How does neutral work? I know if I mis-space anything on his shield, it gets blown up by Fortress. Probably just a lot of patience and jabs and bairs I would think.
What stages are best? I probably don't want Battlefield or Dreamland because if I get Flying Slammed, it's gg at like 90%.

I think the MU is personally even (I play Bowser a ton myself), but it'd be in DK's favor in the end. Bowser's at a disadvantage offstage thanks to DK's multiple spiking options, though Whirling Fortress having a hitbox mean it can be a bit difficult to intercept. Both also suffer from poor vertical recoveries anyway, but Bowser's is better since he can mash it unlike DK.

In general in this matchup, watch out for jab pokes, Bowser definitely wants that jab cancel into his grab. Obviously you gotta look out for his pivot grab range since it's pretty amazing. Fire Breath can catch you offguard especially when B-reversed and due to it having a fairly long duration and dealing decent shield damage. Bowser can't really space effectively with his aerials due to how laggy they are, so he's going to be grounded most of the time unless he has a reason to leave it. Create a defensive wall for Bowser to try to bypass, particularly with moves like bair, nair, or juggle him with utilt or uair. I'm no pro Bowser player but I just wanted to give my impressions on the matchup based off my experiences.

As for stages, FD is your best bet imo.

 

[DK-RULES]

Any thoughts on DK vs Bayonetta? I get killed so often against her. My biggest issue is getting trapped with her sir combo trap and dying at 30%

 

[DK-RULES]

Does anyone have advice on the bayonetta matchup? I feel very caged off against the few I've played.

I would love some suggestions here too. That air combo kills such a heavy character way too early

 

[C0rvus]

Maybe try and find points to break out of her strings with up-b? Definitely work on optimal DI or she will shred you. There's a relevant My Smash Corner video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjdViVh4qm0
Anywho, once she starts hitting you, things get sticky. DK definitely out-footsies her, and his strong throw game is an important tool to have against Bayonetta; it means you don't have to fear Witch Time as much. The MU plays pretty normally in neutral, play patient, poke with bairs and down tilts, look for grabs, counterpoke intelligently, etc. Her guns can be annoying since DK is so tall, but it's not that bad. Be careful near her shield, because Witch Twist is a big combo starter.
When she gets advantage, there isn't much you can do that I know of. Offstage is pretty rough too. I don't want to say "just try not to get hit ever", but I can't think fo what else to say. I know Vex played Salem, but it wasn't pretty. I don't like this MU lol.