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Monkey Business - Donkey Kong Matchup Thread (Wave 5 - Duck Hunt/Ganon)

CELTiiC

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Welcome to the Jungle, home of the DK Matchup Discussion thread.

Here we as a DK community will discuss the characters and the matchups between our boy DK and his opponent in Smash 4. Our other matchup thread was very outdated, not well kept and wasn't really having any discussion and I would like to see this change on this one. I would like to keep this on point, with good educated discussion and civil conversation along with appropriate matchup questions whether it be tips or advice. How this will work is we will discuss two to three matchups on a weekly or bi-weekly cycle. I will try to invite members from forums of the other character to also give their input on the conversation. At the end of the week we will figure how we feel about the matchup. In this post I will keep currently being discussed matchups along with previous discussions and try to keep a post to show where that week started. I'm going to put a table which will be more detailed into the matchup as it'll have advice along with the matchup ratio. This is added for easy access. These ideas are not completely original and have been inspired by members of other forums. The table idea came from the Greninja boards specifically who I would like to give the most credit as I loved their idea of putting the matchups in a table.

Please include customs in your matchup discussion. Although customs aren't a complete standard, EVO is allowing them, and I would find it appropriate if we had in our matchup discussions the matchup with or without customs allowed.

Current Discussion (6/8/2015 - 6/19/2015)
:4dk: vs :4duckhunt:
:4dk: vs :4ganondorf:

Matchup Table
| :4mario: | :4luigi: | :4peach: | :4bowser: | :4yoshi: | :rosalina: | :4bowserjr: | :4wario: | :4dk: | :4diddy:
:4dk: | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? |50:50| ?:? | ?:? | 45:55 | ?:? | 50:50 | 40:60
| :4gaw: | :4littlemac: | :4link: | :4zelda: | :4sheik: | :4ganondorf: | :4tlink: | :4samus: | :4zss: | :4pit:
:4dk: | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 40:60
| :4palutena: | :4marth: | :4myfriends: | :4robinm: | :4duckhunt:| :4kirby: | :4dedede: | :4metaknight: | :4fox: | :4falco: | :4pikachu:
:4dk: | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?| ?:?
| :4charizard: | :4lucario: | :4jigglypuff: | :4greninja: | :4mewtwo: | :4rob: | :4ness: | :4falcon: | :4villagerf: | :4olimar: | :4wiifit:
:4dk: | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? |40:60| ?:? | ?:?| ?:?
| :4shulk: | :4drmario: | :4darkpit: | :4lucina: | :4pacman: | :4megaman: | :4sonic: | :4miibrawl: | :4miisword: | :4miigun:
:4dk: | 45:55 | 45:55 | 40:60 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?
Detailed Matchup Analysis
Victim|MU|Details
:4bowser:|50-50| Back air is your best friend. Don't get predictable, stay out of your shield as much as possible because Bowser is fast, has a lot of quick kill options and has a command grab to punish your shielding habits. Bowser has a lot of good tools to kill you off stage, but DK can juggle Bowser very well and has access to decently quick kill moves such as d-smash and giant punch which are beneficial in this matchup. Abuse killing Bowser off the top of the stage considering he is floaty. Play patient, and stay grounded unless you are spacing back airs or juggling Bowser. Keep him in the air, as he doesn't have a reliable move to use when he is above you that doesn't require a lot of commitment.
:4bowserjr:|45-55| Coming Soon.
:4falcon:|40-60| This matchup is very difficult for DK. Falcon's quick speed allows him to win neutral a majority of the time and gives DK trouble getting confirmed hits. Falcon also has a very strong punish game, and can kill/gimp DK relatively early comparative to most of the cast. DK's best bet in this matchup is to stay below Falcon and combo him in the air and to get easy gimps on his poor recovery.
:4charizard:|50-50| Coming Soon.
:4darkpit:| 60:40 | Coming soon
:4diddy:| 60:40 | Coming soon
:4dk:|50:50| Ditto match. Have better spacing than your opponent and you will win the match.
:4drmario:| 45:55 |
:4duckhunt:| |
:4falco:| |
:4fox:| |
:4ganondorf:| |
:4greninja:| |
:4myfriends:| |
:4jigglypuff:| |
:4dedede:| |
:4kirby:| |
:4link:| |
:4littlemac:| |
:4lucario:| |
:4lucina:| |
:4luigi:| |
:4mario:| |
:4marth:| |
:4megaman:| |
:4metaknight:| |
:4gaw:| |
:4ness:| |
:4olimar:| |
:4palutena:| |
:4pacman:| |
:4peach:| |
:4pikachu:| |
:4pit:| |
:4rob:| |
:4robinm:| |
:rosalina:| |
:4samus:| |
:4sheik:| |
:4shulk:| 45:55 |
:4sonic:| |
:4tlink:| |
:4villagerf:| |
:4wario:| |
:4wiifit:| |
:4yoshi:| |
:4zelda:| |
:4zss:| |
:4miibrawl:| |
:4miigun:| |
:4miisword:| |

Remember to keep it clean, appropriate, friendly and educated. We want to present ourselves in a humane manner, not an ape like manner. We keep our ape behavior for the battlefield, where we all know its every man for himself.

Previous Week's Discussions

Wave 1 - The Koopas (Marth 26th, 2015 - April 3rd, 2015)
:4dk: vs :4bowser: (50 - 50)
:4dk: vs :4bowserjr: (45 - 55)

Wave 2 - The Falcon and the Dragon (April 6th, 2015 - April 17th, 2015)
:4dk: vs :4falcon: (40-60)
:4dk: vs :4charizard: (50-50)


Wave 3 - The Nephew Kong and Dark Pit (April 20th, 2015 - May 1st, 2015)
:4dk: vs :4darkpit: (40-60)
:4dk: vs :4diddy: (40-60)


Wave 4 - Shulk and the Doctor (May 25th 2015 - June 5th 2015)
:4dk: vs :4drmario: (45-55)
:4dk: vs :4shulk: (45-55)

Wave 5 - Ganon and the Puppy (June 5th 2015 - June 19th 2015)
:4dk: vs :4duckhunt:
:4dk: vs :4ganondorf:
 
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Brickbox

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So I know quite a bit about that bowser match up with no customs on and I think it is quite even and if anything I would say barely in bowsers favor because he has a much easier time killing. With customs I think we have the upper hand but this post isn't about that.

Bowser is a lot like dk but with a command grab, the best way to approach the match up is too safely throw out moves until the bowser approaches with something unsafe, I personally feel we shouldn't ever really be commiting to an approach on bower unless you are down and time is ticking.
Once you get a punish or one of your zoning tools connects use bowsers weight/bad landing options to rack on additional damage. Once you have bowser at kill percent is where it gets tricky because rage bowser is scary.

Bowser has some really good zoning tools like his neutral b to stop approaches and his up b oos to punish everything, so you can't really commit to anything, you have to play safe.
Bowser also has fantastic kill power when you are recovering, his run off fair and d tilt destroy our recovery so you gotta mix things up and recover safely.

Also don't rely on shield often or you will get command grabbed and trust me it sucks, rely on your movement as your main defensive option and keep your shield use unpredictable.

That is all I have for now, just kinda random facts about the MU.

55:45 bowser
 
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MegaBlaster1234

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Back air is most likely our best tool against Bowser. Offstage, stringing Back airs can and will kill Bowser by dragging him all the way to the blast line, a la Jigglypuff.
I'd say that Bowser has a better ground game overall due to OoS UpB and faster normals, but DK is better at stringing his attacks together and racking up damage. Plus, DK has better shield pressure.
 

CELTiiC

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This matchup is literally just a match of smash titans. Two powerhouses dueling out. DK's b-air literally is his savior in this matchup for reasons that both MegaBlaster and Brickbox have mentioned. Bowser has an extremely difficult time getting in on well spaced b-airs from DK, and DK's b-air combos into itself well especially on characters like Bowser. With Bowser's speed buff, this matchup changes a bit. Smart shield pressure is important against Bowser, as Up B OOS is one of his biggest assets. Down B and an occasional Side B are great as they force Bowser to think before aimlessly shielding as some do. In Bowsers defense, his fire in neutral is very helpful against DK and he has an easy time edge guarding unprepared DKs with d-tilt, f-tilt and f-air. The giant punch is also very important as it's a huge advantage DK has over Bowser. Giant punch is a kill move in the pocket that can be used any time that it's charged up. This is very helpful against Bowser as most of his kill moves (I.E. d-smash, f-smash and u-smash) are decently laggy and highly committal. Essentially if you can bait a move like this out of Bowser you can set yourself up for a giant punch. Bowsers command grab though is nothing to joke with as Brickbox explained, as it diminishes a lot of DK's best assets in his own OOS game. As long as the DK spaces well I feel this matchup isn't that terrible. If a DK is sloppy he will get obliterated I feel. All in all without customs in tact I feel this matchup is 50:50 or 55:45 slightly in the favor of DK. This may be bias, but I feel b-air wins DK this matchup. Sadly I have no input on this matchup with customs on.
 
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Duck SMASH!

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Hello DK Boards!
Visitor from the Bowser + Bowser Jr. boards here with matchup insight. For the most part, my comments do NOT involve customs.

First, :4bowser::

This MU is a lot of fun. I always enjoyed pitting Bowser vs. DK since Melee just because two of the biggest heavy hitters duking it out against each other. It's still fun in Sm4sh, though I think Bowser has a slight edge.

DK has better Grab range, excellent juggling ability, four meteor smashes (Side B, Down B, Dair, Fair), the giant punch, and spinning kong OOS to rival Bowser's whirling fortress. Bair is an awesome move as you guys probably already know, and he is slightly more mobile in general.

Bowser's attacks are a little more versatile. His Fair covers a wide angle around Bowser's front, Nair surrounds Bowser with its hitbox , and along with his Bair they are all great for edgeguarding offstage. Fair and Bair also auto cancel from a short hop so be wary of that. His Uair is less awesome (but still good), and Dair can spike DK if you don't go for the ledge, but otherwise a predictable move to land, and should only be used to mixup.
Whirling fortress is faster and goes higher, granting Bowser better recovery.
Side B is great for punishes up close to beat shield (which kills DK at around 140% ish). It also has NO landing lag so don't be fooled if you see Bowser using it near the ground.
Bowser's also got other punish options in his DROP KICK, a partly armored Usmash (check out shellguard on the Bowser Forums), a grounded down B that can be used as part of a frame trap with his jab, and Ftilt/Dtilt/jab for faster punishes.
Regarding weaknesses, many of Bowser's attacks have endlag or startup lag. You will have to read the Bowser and punish accordingly. Grabs are your best friend, and gimps will give you a big advantage, as well as Offstage Bairs (but watch you don't try recovering too low.)

BTW for customs, Bowser doesn't have much. His up B and Down B customs suck, and his neutral B customs are gimmicky. Side B may see use with both of them because Dash Slash extends the distance Bowser can travel with 0 landing lag, while Dash Slam sacrifices some KO power and damage to give Bowser a better approach and make the command grab better.
But you guys get Kong Cyclone (lol) and Storm Punch is pretty Janky sometimes....

Slight advantage for Bowser overall. I'd say 55:45 sounds right.

Next, :4bowserjr::
DK still has all the pluses I mentioned above, so I'll get straight to Jr.
Fair and Bair are disjointed. They will beat your aerials for the most part if you try to counter our attacks with your own. Plus, they autocancel if we short hop them, and DK is a big enough target that we will hit you at SH height.
Has Dair drill, but DK's Uair and Usmash are not to be trifled with... Jr will not want to approach from above for the most part. Most likely we will start from the ground and knock you into the air.
From there, DK is combo food for Jr, especially when you take his kart dash combos into account. Uair is particularly effective from Jr cuz he can get two or three of them in if he times it right and each one does 10%.
Mechakoopa and cannonball are great for stage control and pressuring DK. Learn to grab the MKs and send them back. But a good Jr will not let you pick them up so easily...
Jr's ground attacks may not have the same range, but they are all disjointed. If you try to clank you will lose.
However, DK does have the edge on the ground if he keeps good spacing.
Jr also has a better recovery between his jumps, kart dash, and up B, and as long as he avoids DK's meteor smashes he is definitely going to make it back. We can air dodge out of our Up B BTW so don't be too obvious in your attempts to stage spike us recovering low.
This also means Jr has superior edgeguarding cuz his recovery lets him go really far with offstage Fair and Bair.
Up B is also a great punisher from the ledge. It covers getup attack and normal getup, and if you're at high % it will kill. You've been warned.
If you're looking for weaknesses, our grab is terrible, and we have trouble landing. If you knock Jr into the air, don't let him land for free. Chase him and get another hit in or knock him off stage and try to gimp.
Our mechakoopa leaves us with considerable endlag when pulling it out, and we are especially vulnerable in midair. If you are close enough, go in and punish (but don't get hit by the MK on the way)
Shield covers many of our options, but we will be pressuring your shield whenever possible because Jr's moveset encourages offensive play. Don't abuse it, but know that once Jr gets close enough you should always keep your guard up.

Either way, this MU is in Bowser Jr's favour. I think it's around 40:60 for DK, at best 45:55.
 
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CELTiiC

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Just a reminder tomorrow is the last day for this discussion so if anyone has anymore input please post it either today or tomorrow.
 

Big O

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I haven't really played too much of either koopa, but I'll just go over some basic stuff that sums up what I've come across and what to look out for.

Vs. Bowser (Evenish)

-DK only has one move that is majorly affected by Bowser's "Tough Guy" (Heavy Armor). DK's Jumping Headbutt custom move basically doesn't bury Bowser while he is grounded until past 80%, so just don't try to hit him with it until then. While Bowser is in the air it still knocks him away properly, so you don't have to worry about being unsafe on hit as long as he is airborne when you hit him.

-Bowser is only one of 2 characters that feels "stronger" than you. He is heavier than you and has more oomph to his attacks, so you can't trade with him like you can against pretty much everyone else. That said, almost everything he does has tons of commitment and is prone to being punished on block or whiff. You have to respect his moves and try not to take unnecessary risks. One Fsmash too close to the edge or blocked Bowser Bomb and you stock is gone at like 40%. Even if he misses 4 times, that one time he lands it because you stopped respecting it will probably outweigh the punishment he took. While those two examples are worst case scenarios, I bring them up to illustrate that reckless play will make you lose very quickly.

-Bair is really good against Bowser due to his height allowing more unpredictable timings with SH Bair that can hit him. Bair is also really good against him because his weight extends the % range where Bairs combo into each other.

-Juggling him is the best way to win since he is floaty and only really has laggy stall-then-fall moves to protect himself from below. That said, you do need to respect the power of his stall then fall moves and avoid silly trades/blocking them.

-Bowser is easier to KO vertically than horizontally. This means Dsmash, Utilt (sweetspot), and uncharged Giant Punch (sweetspot) are better than usual at ending Bowser's stock than your other KO moves. Uair can also KO Bowser than he's used to if you read an air dodge after throwing him up.

-Bowser might try to Jab cancel into stuff against you. I think you can pretty much always jump out of any followup he might do. If you don't jump out of it though you might get wrecked.

Vs. Bowser Jr. (Slight Disadvantage)

-Bowser Jr. has unique damage scaling modifiers that affect every move you do. Depending on your spacing, this mechanic can help or hinder your ability to KO the koopalings. If you hit his car, he takes less damage/kb than usual. Hitting Bowser Jr. instead results in increased damage/kb. Some moves like your throws seem to always count as hitting Bowser Jr., so they are slightly better than usual. Dtilt and Ftilt angled downwards tend to pretty much always hit his car, but they are also DK's tripping moves so it kind of works out in DK's favor since you can trip him at higher %'s than usual. In general, if you and Bowser Jr. are level with each other, most of your moves tend to count as hitting him instead of his car unless you hit him at max range.

-His Side B is really dumb and very annoying (online anyway). If you get hit by it you will probably eat a really fat combo that also probably leads into a KO move. You have to just respect it and avoid getting hit by it like the plague. It has some weird armor on it if you hit his car, so try not to hit him out of it with Dtilt.

-His Down B is very scary until you become very comfortable with item play in general. Once you master picking it up while it is walking towards you it becomes a lot less scary. If you become pretty good at catching it when it gets thrown at you, they will start thinking twice before they spam it. When they spawn one while you are on the ledge, if you can't grab it with a ledge drop -> double jump -> aerial then you need to just wait until it leaves before attempting to get back on the stage. His ledge trap game is incredible, so you really need to be patient.

-His Up B is really weird and amazing at the same time. After he ejects from his car, he gets access to a pretty powerful KO move that can be comboed into from the car's explosion. Did I mention the ejected car has a hitbox too? DK's size makes it hard not to get hit by all three hits, which can be pretty devastating. One of the weaknesses of Bowser Jr.'s Up b is that a weak hit won't refresh his Up B, so he is prone to being gimped by things like sourspot Nair and the later hits of our aerial Up B. During his decent he can only do that one hammer attack and he has exploitable landing lag whether he does it or not.

-His grab is slow and laggy, so you can get away with a lot of jabs/Dtilts on his shield. It's range is also not that great, but it is slightly better than average so you still need to space Bairs properly to avoid shieldgrabs.

-His normals are pretty disjointed, so you have to watch out for him outspacing your Bair with his disjointed Fair, Bair, Utilt, etc.

-Don't give him breathing room or let him setup his crap on you. I wouldn't bother charging the punch unless he is offstage or above the stage.
 

meleebrawler

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Jr. can airdodge out of up b. Also try not to be predictable with how you deal with the kart there are
quite a few mixups he can do with it. The armour is basically on the wheels.
 

CELTiiC

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Alright guys wave 2 is starting! Last two weeks we discussed :4bowser: and :4bowserjr:. From the discussion I would say it landed in Bowser being a more even matchup for DK and Bowser Jr. being a slight disadvantageous matchup for DK. This week we are discussing :4falcon: and :4charizard:. If you have any input on these matchups please leave your input here!
 
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-LzR-

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This is one of my more played matchups. Unfortunately I have no experience against custom DKs, but I hope default one will do for now.

I think the matchup is very even, if not slightly in Charizards favor.
Both characters excel in living to high % and abusing super armor frames. Charizard is superior in both of these, but DK has a much better neutral game and that is where you have a big advantage.
DKs Bair will give a hard time, especially offstage, just keep an eye out on Rock Smash.
If you manage to get us in the air, Upair will make it hard to land or challenge DK. We are very likely to attempt a rocksmash or flamethrower landing. Rocksmash is easily baitable and you can go behind Charizard if he uses Flamethrower and he will be wide open.
Being a huge target you are very vulnerable to such things as jab2 -> fly and rocksmash. I'm pretty sure we can combo Bthrow in Dragon Rush and Fair at medium %. These can be problematic if you get sent offstage.

Edgeguarding:
Bair is your best friend when edgeguarding Charizard. It covers a huge area and fastfalling it makes it almost unreactable offstage. No matter how much you Bair, Charizard will always make it back, but gets as much damage as you can, it's hard for us to avoid it. If Charizard uses Dragon Rush (they will be using it) you might be able to spike him out of it, but I wouldn't rely on it. Keep in mind Charizard UpB has super armor so be careful how you edgeguard. A very effective way to deal with a recovering Charizard is to attempt a ledgetrump bair, it gives us a hard time and forces us to immediately commit to a ledge option to avoid it, leading into easier Fsmashes.

When DK is recovering, watch out for Charizards Dair. It's a fantastic spike with a large hitbox and it will kill you at about 30% or so unless you recover high. If you recover high, expect to see a Bair for an early kill, Fair to send you right back or a Dragon Rush to carry you off the screen for a very early kill. This can also kill at 0% if Charizard goes for suicide Dragon Rush off the screen.

In the neutral Charizard will most of the time use his Jab to beat whatever you throw at him. At higher % this jab leads to fly which kills very early. Predictable moves will get eaten by rocksmash and DK being huge means he will often eat the full 35% from it. Nobody wants to trade with Charizard, not even you. Flamethrower will also give trouble to DK at medium ranges. If the Charizard player is foolish enough to use it when you have a punch charged, teach him a lesson. If Charizard uses Flamethrower too close to you, you can roll behind him OoS for a free punish.

For Charizard customs:
SideB:Dragon Rush it will easily punish anything you whiff so it can be used to bait out Bairs. Flare Blitz won't be very useful as the trade isn't much in Charizards favor against a super heavyweight and it doesn't kill DK until very high% anyways. DK also has several moves that can do over 14% to straight up beat Flare Blitz.

NeutralB: I think Charizard can go with any of these, it's up to preference. I prefer the default.

DownB: Definitely Rock Smash. 1f super armor from Rock Hurl isn't needed here and you really want to abuse that heavy damage from Rock Smash as much as possible. Sinking Skull is a joke and is not worth mentioning.

UpB: Any of the offensive UpBs are viable. DK is a huge target so Rising Cyclone can be used for better KO potential if you are willing to sacrifice a bit of your recovery. I think that is ok here as DK will most of the time edgeguard with a Bair so we don't need to cover much vertically.

That's all folks. I apologize for the messy format, I just made up all of this on the fly. I hope it will be of some use.
 

Steeler

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Yeah, I like the matchup and play both characters. I do think that Zard's armor options give him a big trump card, and Flamethrower controls space much like Hand Slap, but it's a much more flexible tool. I'm not sure how Zard reacts to Kong Cyclone, but does the windbox have hitstun? If not, Zard can Rock Smash while he's getting carried for extra damage. Dragon Rush also lets Zard chase DK's landing spot or maybe get out if it doesn't have hitstun. Heavyweight matchups are fun. I know Stubborn Headbutt isn't preferred, but you could armor through Rock armor, which just seems hilarious.
 

MegaBlaster1234

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Fighting against Falcon is so stressful. Everything he has either shuts DK down or poses a huge threat in neutral.
As with every matchup, DK is combo fodder, and we pretty much need to retreat to the ledge or a platform to avoid Falcon and his insane rushdown. But therein lies the problem. DK has no real safe option after getting knocked into the air. And if we grab the ledge, DK is in death percentage at pretty much 0% since Cap can just Up Tilt and cover almost every option. If he misses, he can just back throw us and do it all over again.

However, if DK can knock Falcon into the air first, capitalizing early on is key. DK can combo him pretty well too, and our damage per hit is slightly better overall. Down B can stuff ground approaches and grabs attempts, but at low percentages, Falcon can punish DK really hard, and our recovery is horrible in this matchup because of how strong Falcon's spikes are. Charging Giant Punch is out of the question until we knock him away and make some space since he can punish us before we can even cancel the charge. We need to keep the lead, avoid getting grabbed like hell, and take advantage of Falcon's weight and recovery. Anytime Falcon is offstage should mean death, but that's easier said than done. DK has Nair and Bair, both of which completely cover the angles at which Falcon can recover, but Falcon Dive can sometimes grab you out of gimp attempt and reverse the situation.

This a terrible matchup for DK, and I feel like it's a strong 70/30 in Falcon's favor, but offstage play heavily favors DK if he isn't at the mercy of a spike.
 

meleebrawler

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Fighting against Falcon is so stressful. Everything he has either shuts DK down or poses a huge threat in neutral.
As with every matchup, DK is combo fodder, and we pretty much need to retreat to the ledge or a platform to avoid Falcon and his insane rushdown. But therein lies the problem. DK has no real safe option after getting knocked into the air. And if we grab the ledge, DK is in death percentage at pretty much 0% since Cap can just Up Tilt and cover almost every option. If he misses, he can just back throw us and do it all over again.

However, if DK can knock Falcon into the air first, capitalizing early on is key. DK can combo him pretty well too, and our damage per hit is slightly better overall. Down B can stuff ground approaches and grabs attempts, but at low percentages, Falcon can punish DK really hard, and our recovery is horrible in this matchup because of how strong Falcon's spikes are. Charging Giant Punch is out of the question until we knock him away and make some space since he can punish us before we can even cancel the charge. We need to keep the lead, avoid getting grabbed like hell, and take advantage of Falcon's weight and recovery. Anytime Falcon is offstage should mean death, but that's easier said than done. DK has Nair and Bair, both of which completely cover the angles at which Falcon can recover, but Falcon Dive can sometimes grab you out of gimp attempt and reverse the situation.

This a terrible matchup for DK, and I feel like it's a strong 70/30 in Falcon's favor, but offstage play heavily favors DK if he isn't at the mercy of a spike.
I'd say it's just 60:40 Falcon. Both of them have great advantaged and terrible disadvantaged states, it's
just that Falcon has an easier time capitalizing on mistakes. A patient and precise DK, however will have a small
edge in neutral by outranging Falcon with moves like Dtilt and Bair. Also note that in a recovery situation,
DK can try to mixup and land on a platform if there are any, which Falcon cannot do so easily. Remember:
For Glory is very unkind to DK due to having no platforms.
 

MegaBlaster1234

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I'd say it's just 60:40 Falcon. Both of them have great advantaged and terrible disadvantaged states, it's
just that Falcon has an easier time capitalizing on mistakes. A patient and precise DK, however will have a small
edge in neutral by outranging Falcon with moves like Dtilt and Bair. Also note that in a recovery situation,
DK can try to mixup and land on a platform if there are any, which Falcon cannot do so easily. Remember:
For Glory is very unkind to DK due to having no platforms.
The thing is, one mistake and DK has a lot of catching up to do. Falcon is just too fast for us to truly safely escape somewhere. Thanks to regular Up B having that new landing lag even if you cancel it perfectly, Falcon can capitalize on it and keep us in the air.
And DK has a horrible time regaining the lead if the Falcon player is as patient and precise as the DK player since our landing options aren't good at all and we're very vulnerable upon landing due to our roll and spot-dodge being bad. Not to mention all the platform shenanigans that Falcon can do on stages like Battlefield and Delfino.

I'm not saying this is an impossible matchup, but it leans more towards who gets the first hit, which more often than not will be Falcon.
 

Ffamran

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*BZZZZT* Do a barrel roll!


Hello DK crew members, the Falco boards started their DK matchup discussion and would love some insight from the first member of the DK crew. It's ongoing so drop in or roll in whenever. Link to the thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...donkey-kong-barrel-rolling-to-victory.399489/.

Edit: Forgot about this: if you want to fight some Falco players, drop by here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/ or the Falco Social: http://smashboards.com/threads/falc...er-the-air-and-the-points-dont-matter.379756/.
 
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DaRkJaWs

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I think a high level Falcon vs a high level dk 60-70/40-30. A falcon that can keep up the pressure is incredibly difficult to deal with. Dks only chance is to learn everything they as dks can do off stage to even the matchup. If you cannot gimp them off stage regularly then you can forget about beating falcon.
 
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CELTiiC

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Alright guys we are off Falcon and Charizard. As discussed, we essentially determined Falcon as a detrimental matchup for DK, and Charizard to be a fairly even matchup. This week we will be discussing :4darkpit: and :4diddy:. Feel free to start discussing whenever you get the chance!
 
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MegaBlaster1234

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Oh god Diddy cannot be allowed to gain momentum at the start or our lives will be hell. The nerf on Diddy really helps alleviate the fact that he could kill as early as DK, but he remains way too slippery for us to really be on par with him. Banana just makes this matchup harder than it should be, so always ban FD (if you didn't already cause y'know) and make sure to use platform traps to the fullest. Also, playing safe and spacing attacks well will make sure we don't get hit by F-smash or get punished too hard.
He can combo us until death percents and basically forces us to retreat to the ledge since he can chase us and punish landings even on platforms. He can force us to recover low with peanuts and offstage chases, and he can punish our rolls very easily with Side B.

Our damage output will be our biggest help since trades are always in our favor, and landing Giant Punch will always put him offstage, which is where we HAVE to keep him. Bair will always beat Monkey Flip and Nair and UpB will ruin RocketBarrels. Condition him to recover low. This is something I personally do, but once they have to recover low, I go balls deep after them and UpB into their barrels. This might sound like a suicide kill, and sometimes it is, but most times they'll panic and release their charge and trade with you, causing them to freefall and restoring your UpB. If you saved your double jump, you'll make it back.
 

StrikeBlade

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Hey, I'm here from the Pit boards. I see you're all talking about Diddy at the moment, but I'll just get this out there:

:4pit::4darkpit:

Although you can definitely give us some trouble if you get your reads and get some of your combos out, plus the many, large opportunities for a spike on but overall I'd say this is going to be a tough matchup for you.

Pit or Pitoo can poke you guys from far away with a decent projectile and force you to do something, be it shielding, dashing, or jumping.

And the Angels' N-Air attack really sucks big characters like DK in, because of their large hurtboxes, and long hurtlag. This is a great punishment for a lot of situations, and it can be done out of shield. Really watch out for this, it's dangerous.

Pit's N-Air also autocancels once he kicks his foot out, so he can get you with this multiple times provided he's fastfalling at the right time. And his D-Air can scoop you up right into it.

His F-air and UpAir have similar types of hitboxes on them, and it'll be really tough to escape him, granted he's a halfway decent Pit/Pitoo.

Both their Side B attacks, the Upperdash, and Electroshock Arms, are really strong, have decent Super Armor during the dash, and can kill well at probably around 150% on DK. Dark Pit's may be later since he launches diagonally, while Pit goes straight up. You can grab us out of this though, so watch for that opportunity.

Their Tilts are huge and silly. Their F-tilt will combo into itself if you sourspot it, but even if you don't, it still reaches far, and comes out really fast. It's a great spacing tool. It'll also kill at the tip for Pit, but it's hardly worth mentioning since it happens so late. Still, his D-tilt is also super quick, and his UpTilt is a great Anti-Air attack, that also punishes any situation where you're right in front of them.

Their jab is also pretty long, so it can be used for extra insurance when you're not sure exactly what the opponent will do next. A decent Pit player probably will only rarely if EVER use the multihit version, because it's nowhere near as good as his 1-2-3 combo.

Their D-Airs can spike when you're directly below them, and their B-Airs can kill pretty early at the ledge. Their UpAir has a lot of priority, so it's risky to challenge it directly.

Their Down B, Guardian Orbitars, are so useless in most situations that you'll rarely see us use this move. Especially not against a DK.

the Up B though,
Power of Flight is another story though. This recovery is really good. The Angels have 4 jumps and this little gem to get us back. However, we're completely vulnerable during this, so chasing offstage and B-Airing or trying to spike us is a good idea, since we have no defense once flying.
:4pit::4darkpit::4pit::4darkpit::4pit::4darkpit:
--TLDR; Pit has a really good stage control game, so try and take advantage of that, and get him off the stage as early as you can since he's fairly defenseless when coming back to the stage. His fast multihit moves will suck you in easily, and he's generally going to be able to outmaneuver you no matter what, so grit those teeth and spike that Angel!
 
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Hokuwokk

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Yo like goddamn i have so much trouble with the shulk MU i REALLY hope hes one of the next characters thats covered
 

CELTiiC

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Sorry guys I went inactive on here for a couple weeks. Finals really took a toll on my free time and I have been relaxing a bit so now I'm back. I've determined we have unfavorable matchups against the characters from the last wave, but this week we are currently discussing :4drmario: and by request :4shulk:. Discuss away!
 

DomBadZZZ

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:4shulk: shield grabbing is our best friend here as you know shulk will be approaching with nairs, he has just as much range as us especially in the air which can take a while to get used to. Be careful when making reads or attacking their landings because thats when most shulks counter and charging just one smash for a hard read can be deadly at even low %s. One weakness we can really take advantage of is his bad recovery for bair gimps but like i said before he has crazy range on fair so you have to time and space your aerials well. I would expect him to grab or pivot grab when he turns into speed, and be aware that his down throw can kill at high %s with smash monado on. Honestly i would just run away when hes in shield because killing him in shield is like pulling teeth. I play against a high level shulk often and i would say the match up is about even or slightly in shulks advantage so to be safe ill say 55-45 their advantage.

:4drmario: one thing thats annoying is pill spam which can rack up damage and that we cant grounded up-b through like we can fireballs. doc can combo but its not nearly as punishing and we outrange him completely with tilts and bairs, definitely watch out for his cape when recovering though, its an easy fix if you just reverse your analogue though. His up-b is surprisingly strong and fast kill move but his recovery is buns so try and get your bair strings for fast kills/gimps. His downsmash is one of his best kill moves so be aware and keep him away with tilts and down-b. i think this match-up is even or slightly in our favor since we can out-range him easily and gimp him well without getting comboed nearly as bad as mario. im saying 50-50
 

Hokuwokk

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Yo this man:4shulk:is an annoying MU for DK IMO. I play a high level shulk all the time and I have to say Shulk beats you in the air. CLEAN. His jump normals have just too much range and priority over Dk so they beat DK. Especially Shulk's bair. In this MU since you're so big and you're prob jumping around fishing for DK bairs Shulks bair will keep you in check. The range is just too stupid on that move. Also Shulk can gimp you fairly well in this MU. Once your trying to recover back on stage he will run off fair you and beat out your up B clean And with smash manado on it might also lead to an early KO.

In this MU Shulk can make use of most of his artes. Speed to close the gap between you and your big ass, buster to rack STUPID dmg with up throw, up tilt combos,smash to seal the deal early and shield to stay alive. With Speed you might want to pivot perf pivot not just your grabs but tilts too. Deff will keep him in check and could lead into big dmg potentially with a perf pivot down tilt into whatever after. And obv with buster just DI the best you can I guess.

ONE MORE THING... Shulk's counter is one of the worst things for DK in this MU. A f tilt at like 70-80 will kill dk while shulk is smash arte so be warry of this move. It stays active for a while also so when you see it be smart and punish him for it or just for a throw like cargo up throw into up air if u can. Just an fyi Shulk can also run off counter you while you up b back on stage AND he can recover back onto stage after hes done it too sooo yeah theres that...

All i can really say about this MU is just be patient with this dude he will be so close yet somewhat far from the two of you. Really understand his attack ranges and that will already put you at an advantage. Ima agree with @ DomBadZZZ DomBadZZZ this MU is slightly in Shulks favor but once we are able to get that groove going the pace can easily be in dk's favor.
 
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notyourparadigm

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Shulk main here! I can only discuss experience from limited experience against DK mains, and you all will know his character far better than I do, so I'll focus mainly on Shulk's perspective and how to play against him.

I agree with most of what has already been said. Shield grab any misspaced aerials (watch out for MALLC though), take advantage of our recovery (although keep in mind you probably aren't going to gimp a Shulk in Jump Art unless they recover predictably), and overall play patiently. The DKs who have given me the most trouble are the ones who have played footsies really well, and waited for me to misspace or whiff moves and then punished me hard. Of course, the Shulk player will be trying to do the same, but generally DK's punishes hurt harder than Shulk's, depending on what art he has activated. While I do agree that this is safely advantage:Shulk due to superior mobility and combo potential in Speed and Jump and a superior range, it's not an unwinnable advantage if you play smartly. I'd say 60:40.

Always take into account which Art Shulk is in, and try to capitalize on it. Jump and Buster Shulk takes 22% and 13% more damage, respectively, so make sure to be efficient with your follow ups and punishes. Buster also is deceptive in the fact that it is very safe on-shield, but not safe on-hit due to the lack of hitstun. For this reason, some Shulks won't use this at very low percentages; if they do, be ready to punish over-committed attacks even when they hit. Speed does less damage, so while it is an intimidating art to face (and my personal favourite to use) because of the increased opportunity to combo DK and his readily combo-able body, it's one where Shulk doesn't really want to trade blows since he will take more percentage that he is dealing. Challenge him (smartly!) and break out of his strings when you can. Most of Shulk's strings are not guaranteed combos, and so long as your defensive options aren't read and you don't miss techs you should be able to get out after one or two hits.

Smash is a tricky one because it can quickly become a game of Russian Roulette-- for me, I would avoid using this art entirely against DK unless he was at (mid-)high percents and I am at low/zero percent (so, primarily if I lost my stock first) because the increased knock-back taken means DK can kill me even earlier than usual with a good read. You can either choose to stall out the art (recommended) or challenge Shulk if he is also nearing normal kill percents (only recommended if you have a good feel for your opponent's habits and are confident he'll make a mistake before you do). Beware particularly of counters in this art if you are still trying to KO Shulk-- although of course, baiting them out can be a very efficient way to secure that kill.

As for Shield... what @ DomBadZZZ DomBadZZZ said is indeed a valid option, as Shulk can't really deal with camping in Shield... but something more proactive would be to throw or knock Shulk off the stage. This will do one of a two things: either Shulk will overestimate his ability to recover in Shield (I'm guilty of this, haha) and try to recover with the art still on, perhaps dying as a result; or he'll acknowledge his situation, cancel out of the art (likely switch into Jump too, if it's available) and come back onto stage... but with an art in which DK can KO him. Shulk might try to stall in Jump and wait for Shield's cooldown to end, but keep up smart pressure and Shulk will present an opening eventually. If needed, rinse and repeat the process. Unless Shulk is at 200%+, don't stale your kill moves on him in Shield Art. You only risk yourself getting countered, which will still kill at early percents despite Shield's reduced knockback from the rage Shulk probably has.

As for customs, I can't speak about this MU specifically since I've never faced a custom DK, but I can give you a brief summary of what to expect from our side. Most Shulks will opt for Power Vision, so expect to die at even more fraudulent percentages from even a countered jab. Luckily, any Shulk with sense won't spam it due to its decreased window of active frames with each attempt, and instead will wait for a seemingly opportune moment to secure a stock. If you are near kill percent, you again might be able to bait out an attempted counter and punish as hard as you like. Otherwise, watch out for Hyper Monado Arts-- Hyper Smash will kill with a downthrow centre stage at <70% on most of the cast, so treat yourself about two stages lighter than you actually are. Hyper Arts are probably best faced by stalling; of course you will have difficulty stalling Hyper Speed or Hyper Jump, but the other three are feasible. You'll probably never KO a Shulk in Hyper Shield, and Hyper Smash is... an even faster and more dangerous game of Russian Roulette. Hyper Buster is the only toss-up for me-- while you can in theory go 0-90% real quick, it's nonexistent knock back makes it incredibly unsafe on-hit and will again probably only be used at higher percentages to push you in to kill range. It's probably the safest one to challenge, as DK can just eat any of Shulk's hits and turn it into a DK mixclip. Decisive Monado Arts are also a thing, but they don't really change anything MU-wise in terms of what I've described above (except that you can laugh as a Decisive Shield Shulk tumbles to his death after being thrown off stage D: ). I personally don't use side- and up-special customs so... consider me useless there, haha.

As for general other comments... Shulk normally requires a read or a reaction on an unsafe move in order to secure KOs, so be wary of being too predictable with your approaches, recoveries, or defensive options. Position-wise, being above Shulk = utilt juggles, which are hard to challenge because large disjoint. Challenging Shulk in the air is not advised either because... large disjoint. Juggling Shulk is very viable, since his dair is less than useful and panic nairs are punishable. On the ground, spacing is everything. The Monado's range is ridiculous, but Shulk also doesn't have that many reliable OOS options (really only grabbing and Air Slash, although the latter is a kill option). Proper shield pressure will usually put him in a tough spot.

Sorry the advice was kind of generic despite the length of this post. If you have any specific questions about the matchup or Shulk, I'd be happy to answer them!
 
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Agent Emerald

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Paradigm really puts it down pat. Always look for an the perfect moment you can slip past our giant plastic tube lightsabers. Be wary when approaching since you can get snagged into a utilt chain from above or get caught be a dtilt on the ground. Your best bet is getting Shulk above you since it's kinda easy to read his options coming down (Either Nair, Dair, or Airdodge)
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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To all Donkey Kong users out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Donkey Kong. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Donkey Kong match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/404699/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/
 

Kisatamura

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Hi! Sorry for the late response but I'm one of the Doc mains from the Dr. Mario boards.

For some reason I actually consider DK to be a lot harder for Doc to handle compared to Melee: I legitimately want to say it's 55-45 in DK's favor, but some aspects of DK like endlag on his moves or being huge in general remind me that it may be even.

Regardless, Doc has a projectile so I think the general theme of this MU is for DK to get in within the range where Dr. Mario gets bullied by DK's superior range. DK's tilts are all really good if they hit, but if they're blocked they run the risk of getting punished. Doc has a good amount of fast frame moves (Honestly all of his tilts really) though they all lack range so the only thing Doc can really do is attempt a grab or throw a pill. That being said Doc has several combos so just watch out for them. As a side note, Doc's DownB (Dr. Tornado) can sometimes stuff out DK's attacks, so just watch out for that. And of course, OoS UpB which has a bigger range than it looks and can be used to punish DK.

In the air, both characters are honestly good here: DK has a good set of aerials and so does Doc, except Doc has some quicker aerials and DK has bigger aerials. Doc's bair is a little bit faster than DK's, so try challenging it from a distance. I don't know if DK has any trouble avoiding juggling, but Doc's uair has some priority and I'm not sure if any of DK's aerials besides dair can challenge it.

Doc obviously is bad at recovery, so forcing him offstage is always a good idea. Docs usually try to recover vertically instead of horizontally, so DK's FSmash is one move I tend to look out for from a DK. Either way Doc is easy to gimp. Conversely, Doc is good at edgeguarding as well. Besides caping, Doc can use dair or Dr. Tornado for edgeguarding DK. Or throwing pills offstage.

Customs wise, Doc has access to Fast Capsule which is essentially Falco's Laser. Gust Cape can be a boon to a recovering DK since it can push back DK's recovery. And then Soaring Tornado (Custom DownB 2) has a extreme amount of priority which can kill really early at the edge which can challenge DK's horizontal recovery. It also allows Doc to recover from below. Really, the only thing I can say about Custom Doc is that his Soaring Tornado can be challenged depending on how you hit it: It's vulnerable from above before the hitbox, so a DK can dair Doc from above. Otherwise, Docs can setup Soaring Tornado by using a Dthrow and reading your DI. All I know about facing custom DK is that Kong Cyclone can sometimes be stopped by a Doc's UpB, but that's about it.

Essentially, this MU is about Doc keeping out DK and then attacking him when DK can't react. On the flipside, DK has range and combos from his tilts, so the MU can become heavily momentum based.
 

CELTiiC

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Alright guys these previous wave of discussion is over. I think we have decided that we lose to both of these matchups slightly, with Shulk being to a varying degree. Next wave of discussion has to deal with Ganon and Duck Hunt Dog. Also if we could get some of our mains to do write ups so we have an idea of what to expect in the matchup that'd be awesome!
 

TheWorstMuppet

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Hey guys! Duck Hunt guy here, with my thoughts on the DK match-up. I don't have enough experience with customs, so I'll just be talkin' bout standard Kong here (I'm hoping Dunnobro might swing by and give his thoughts on dat dere CustomKong.)
Anyway...

Cons for DK:
First off, I think it's safe to say that projectiles in general cause trouble for the king of the jungle. Duck Hunt never has to approach. As long as he keeps a certain distance there's not much DK can do. Be mindful of shielding too much, as that can result in Duck Hunt gettin' free grabs (seriously, Duck Hunt's grab is phenomenal! http://a.pomf.se/zmywtd.mp4) Just keep moving and see if you can find a way in. Power shield incoming cans and gunmen. Frisbees will have a delayed detonation, so watch out!

Pros for DK:
It's in the air that the ape triumphs. Duck Hunt doesn't have very many options at all for dealing with DK directly underneath him and Duck Hunt can't exactly challenge DK's powerful Up-Air with his laggy Dair. Most of DK's aerials are quicker, so fights in the sky tend to favor the big lug. Preventing Duck Hunt from recovering off stage is easier than on other characters. However, good Duck Hunt's will throw out a can or a gunmen to avoid getting spiked, so be mindful of always going out there.

Duck Hunt's killing potential is also... lacking. DK can live to much higher percentages than usual due to Duck Hunt's inability to seal the deal a lot of the time. As a result, many comebacks can be had. After all, a Gorilla with rage is a scary sight!

I think this is a pretty bad match up for DK. Duck Hunt can keep zoning him out til the cows come home and DK will always have to approach. If DK can grab Duck Hunt and stay in his grill, then you'll have a slightly easier time. However, I would still hafta rate this match up like so...

:4dk:40 : 60:4duckhunt:
 

A2ZOMG

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I think DK vs Ganon is pretty even personally. They both can juggle and edgeguard each other pretty hard. DK has a better ground game with his tilts and Down-B, but Ganon has better aerials in his U-air and N-air which also control good options in neutral. The fact DK is a large target also makes him relatively easy for Ganon to command grab if he's conditioned to shield.

EDIT : Kong cyclone helps for recovery mostly to my recollection, given Ganon still can juggle DK pretty well with Uair. Ganondorf's recovery also gets a boost from WDK and Dark Fists. Don't think the matchup changes drastically from default under customs personally.
 
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WispBae

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Doggy main here too!

I'll just go ahead and say Custom DK wins everything by 1000000000000000000000:Z and we should all give in to the supreme wind-bending Kong.

Haha, for real though, custom DK is annoying, though I haven't fought too many to say what's up for sure. Summoning @ DunnoBro DunnoBro ...

For Vanilla MU's, however, I feel like Doggy win's this MU, but not by a whole lot, similar to what @ TheWorstMuppet TheWorstMuppet said.

Pros! (For DK)
  • Great reach with moves. Not disjointed by still awesome.
  • Excellent combo game and tech chase options (fast dash attack, and that silly ground slapping).
  • More KO options than Duck Hunt.
Cons! (For DK)
  • Easy to set-up a projectile wall on (Giant target).
  • Poor recovery (vertical wise) forces predictable recoveries.
Just stay on top of Doggy, don't give him room to set up. Once he gets that wall built up, be prepared for a rough time.
 

DunnoBro

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Custom DK still loses to DHD pretty hard imo unless it's delfino. His projectiles let him challenge kong cyclone freely and often gets big gains out of it. Zigzag also combos DK specificlly the best out of any char in the game. (Dedede's fall speed lets him fall out of the combos and kills, and bowser's better priority fair/dair and upb, along with a less pure wide hurtbox make things annoying.)

Zigzag also shield pokes DK if it starts hitting him on a platform from below, so it's risky to platform cancel cyclone just because you can.

The only way DK wins is by doing his damndest to not die, because he loses the neutral game so hard, all he can do is make use of rage mode and a good pressure game.

Custom ganon is likely even, but ganon's moves also break kong cyclone pretty easily for some reason. It might be the range of his moves, and default choke does nasty things to a DK trying to recover high with cyclone. (the windbox pulls the choke offstage if it connects)

Dark fist is also a big threat for a punishable character like DK. Ganon's main issue in this MU is that he can't escape the hits of kong cyclone as easily as most chars due to his poor air speed and size, but it's alleviated by the fact if the cyclone isn't spaced perfectly, ganon can punish it very hard with fist and/or consistently with chokes.

I'd call it even, but things are more awkward for DK since he has to play more defensive at much lower percents. But note my experience of custom ganon v dk is much shallower than my dhd v dk.
 
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Big O

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DK vs DHD is a very annoying MU to play as DK. I haven't played too many of them, but almost every single time I've ever played one it almost goes to time. I have around 2k matches on FG and have never gone to Sudden Death. I've gotten down to the last few seconds like 4 times against DHD despite hardly ever playing against him. The MU pretty much boils down to DK struggling to approach and DHD failing to KO you.

The most annoying thing about DHD is how short he is during the endlag of some of his moves, which makes you whiff Bair instead of punishing a whiffed attack sometimes. You have to time your Bair to hit as low to the ground as possible to avoid whiffing against him.

The key to winning this MU as DK is just exercising patience in general. While it can certainly be daunting at times to get through his projectile spam, you have to maintain your composure and take your time when approaching. There are always multiple options to deal with anything he throws at you. You can jump, block, roll, dodge, and even attack sometimes to deal with his projectiles. It's all about choosing the right option at the right time. I tend to just block the can if I'm close to it, jump or roll through the frisbee thing, and just avoid throwing out any moves when you think his desperado dude is about to shoot.

The worst thing you can do is get frustrated and take way more damage getting in than you should. The next worst thing is you get in, but then you get sloppy and forget he can hit you with his normals or roll away. Once you get too close for him to be comfortable, just stay there and keep it that way. You don't have to throw it away with a reckless offensive. Just be on the lookout for rolls and react to any attempted projectile usage (which should be unsafe at this distance if you react properly). Eventually, you should be able to corner him and once you do, you should try to force either a juggle or an edgeguard attempt. You are more mobile than he is, so he can't hide behind his projectiles and zone/run away indefinitely.

Fortunately, his crippling lack of KO power outside of his smash attacks lets us get to max rage fairly often. We can turn the tables pretty quickly with rage punches or Dsmash and KO at like 50-85%. While he might whiff his smash attacks due to their inconsistent multi-hitting nature, be aware that DK's fat body makes it miss less often than usual. Also when he charges his Fsmash (maybe all of his smashes?) it gains range, so be careful and don't get baited.

I've never played against customs DHD, but Zigzag Shot (might have wrong name) is like the scariest thing ever to have to go up against. I'm surprised how little exposure that move has gotten considering how insanely good it is. I wouldn't be surprised if we lost harder to customs DHD than without customs tbh.

Overall, I would say DHD has a slight advantage in the MU customs off (45:55 to 40:60 for us).
 

meleebrawler

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DK vs DHD is a very annoying MU to play as DK. I haven't played too many of them, but almost every single time I've ever played one it almost goes to time. I have around 2k matches on FG and have never gone to Sudden Death. I've gotten down to the last few seconds like 4 times against DHD despite hardly ever playing against him. The MU pretty much boils down to DK struggling to approach and DHD failing to KO you.

The most annoying thing about DHD is how short he is during the endlag of some of his moves, which makes you whiff Bair instead of punishing a whiffed attack sometimes. You have to time your Bair to hit as low to the ground as possible to avoid whiffing against him.

The key to winning this MU as DK is just exercising patience in general. While it can certainly be daunting at times to get through his projectile spam, you have to maintain your composure and take your time when approaching. There are always multiple options to deal with anything he throws at you. You can jump, block, roll, dodge, and even attack sometimes to deal with his projectiles. It's all about choosing the right option at the right time. I tend to just block the can if I'm close to it, jump or roll through the frisbee thing, and just avoid throwing out any moves when you think his desperado dude is about to shoot.

The worst thing you can do is get frustrated and take way more damage getting in than you should. The next worst thing is you get in, but then you get sloppy and forget he can hit you with his normals or roll away. Once you get too close for him to be comfortable, just stay there and keep it that way. You don't have to throw it away with a reckless offensive. Just be on the lookout for rolls and react to any attempted projectile usage (which should be unsafe at this distance if you react properly). Eventually, you should be able to corner him and once you do, you should try to force either a juggle or an edgeguard attempt. You are more mobile than he is, so he can't hide behind his projectiles and zone/run away indefinitely.

Fortunately, his crippling lack of KO power outside of his smash attacks lets us get to max rage fairly often. We can turn the tables pretty quickly with rage punches or Dsmash and KO at like 50-85%. While he might whiff his smash attacks due to their inconsistent multi-hitting nature, be aware that DK's fat body makes it miss less often than usual. Also when he charges his Fsmash (maybe all of his smashes?) it gains range, so be careful and don't get baited.

I've never played against customs DHD, but Zigzag Shot (might have wrong name) is like the scariest thing ever to have to go up against. I'm surprised how little exposure that move has gotten considering how insanely good it is. I wouldn't be surprised if we lost harder to customs DHD than without customs tbh.

Overall, I would say DHD has a slight advantage in the MU customs off (45:55 to 40:60 for us).
Nah, just fsmash.
 

Xinc

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From the last discussion gathered from Ganon v DK on the Ganon boards, this is the short version:

DK wins neutral due to better range and better ground game, but the moment Ganon ends up below DK, DK will eat a lot of damage due to his predictable landing options. Ganon has many tools to get DK into the air as well. He can jab DK out of choke if DK does not tech and reset the situation for his favor.

Dark Fists can land some surprising KOs against DK at mid-percents and has super armor, so you might want to take caution if trying to edge guard him. Ganon can edge guard DK but timing must be precise. Options include up air (below/in front of DK), Fair (above/below [the initial part]), or Dair (vulnerable Up-B period)
 
Last edited:

Blobface

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DK is really good at juggling Ganon, but do not overextend. Wizkick and Fair are disjointed and hurt a lot, and Wizkick in particular can kill at insanely low %'s.

Overall, it's fairly even. I'm not very familiar with DK dittos but I doubt it's too different. With that said, like every other Heavy vs Heavy matchup, it's very difficult to play for both sides, and tiny mistakes can flip the match in a second.

Customs on, I doubt it changes much. Either Kong Cyclone is overrated or Ganon does well against it, but when I fought against the dreaded Copterkong, Cyclone was almost a non-factor. Ganondorf can land U-airs for free out of Cyclone depending on frame advantage, and Ganon's weight makes Cyclone kill really really late.
Cyclones frame advantage works like this:
  • The person being hit has the most frame advantage if DK uses Cyclone from above the other person
  • They have a medium frame advantage if DK uses Cyclone from below
  • They have the least frame advantage if DK uses Cyclone from the side
  • All of this depends on how much DK is moving. The more DK moves, the more frame advantage the person has.
 
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