Modifying Pikmin

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

I think that there should be changes to some of the Pikmin. Basically to make it so that they are useful in their own right. My goal is to have the thought while playing him, "Sweet, I have a line up of Red, Yellow, Blue, and Purple!"

Now Obviously having more Purples is better in virtually all cases, but let's let the Purple stay in it's own high chair on the playground and talk about the other colors. I'll start with those in need of more help first, and offer suggestions as to what it could do to make it a wanted Pikmin and be a valued resource. I also believe that each Pikmin should have a specialty that makes it better in certain situations than other Pikmin. I'll add a Role to color for what I think it should be. I will also give it a Value Rank between 1-5, 1 Being worthless and 5 being very useful.

Yellow - Role: Combo Starter and Continuer.
Currently, Yellow has a hitbox that is neglegably larger than the other Pikmin. It has a 0.6 increase in comparison which is virtually nonexistant. I won't pretend to know what that number should be, but the effect should be noticable. There is also unusable hitlag/hitstun.

Added stats:
Yellow Pikmin should have a noticably larger hitbox.
Yellow Pikmin should have more hitlag/hitstun.
Yellow Pikmin should come out, and finish it's animations faster than the other Pikmin, allowing for easier followups.
Yellow Pikmin should also still maintain the lowest damage of the 5 colors.

3.02 Value: 2
Suggested Value: 4

Red - Role: Edge Guarder
Currently, Red is a mix between Blue and Yellow. It hit's closely to the power of Blue but isn't particularly good at anything besides giving a few extra percents on hits.

Added stats:
Red Pikmin should hit at an akward angle. This means that when opponents are hit with Red, they go at more of a downward horizontal angle, as opposed to the other Pikmin hitting at a horizontal upward angle. The tactics would be intersting on stage because the opponent could tech the Fair at higher percents but it would be leathal as an edgeguarding tool.
Red Pikmin should maintain the rest of it's stats.

3.02 Value: 3
Suggested Value: 4

Blue - Role: Graber
Currently, Blue is great for grabs. It can lead to chain grabs and has kill throws. It hits hard enough to kill at decent percents.

Added stats:
None. It's perfect as is.

3.02 Value: 4
Suggested Value: 4

White - Role: Damage Dealer
Currently, White is an investment that pays off once flowered. It is capable of dealing massive amounts of damage in a short time.

Added Stats:
None. If the feature of thrown and attached Pikmin get invincability frames long enough for them to hit once, it would be perfect.

3.02 Value: 4
Suggested Value: 4

Purple - Role: Knockback King
Currently the Purple is the most saught after Pikmin. The basic reason for this is because it is useful in nearly all situations. This is a powerful Pikmin and should remain Olimars most powerful tool.

Added Stats:
None. Nothing about the Purple Pikmin should change. There are issues that should be dealt with regarding all Pikmin, such as Priority, but in general this Pikmin should stay the same.

3.02 Value: 5
Suggested Value: 5

 

[steelguttey]

not every pikmin needs a niche tho. red and yellow should both be average in every case to start combos. they dont need anything new lol

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

not every pikmin needs a niche tho. red and yellow should both be average in every case to start combos. they dont need anything new lol

All Pikmin can start combo's. There should be a Pikmin that excells at starting combo's. All Pikmin can edge-guard. There should be a Pikmin that excells at edge-guarding. All Pikmin can grab. There should be a Pikmin that excells at grabs. All Pikmin can deal damage. There should be a Pikmin that excells at dealing damage. All Pikmin have knockback. There should be a Pikmin that excells at knockback.

As it currently stands, there are 2 Pikmin that are not worth using over the other 3. Yellow and Red. Red is better than Yellow but it's worth tossing just to have a chance to get a Blue or Purple. It is widely agreed upon that Yellow needs a buff. If they buff Yellow as suggested, then Red would become the bottom of the barrel, not really haveing a use.

Here are some of the main reasons why I vehemently disagree that Red and Yellow should "be average in every case".

In the Pikmin games, each Pikmin has a specialty. You needed to use the right color for the right job. Yellow is thrown high and can dig faster, Blue can be in water, Red deals more damage, White deals way more damage, Purple breaks things. The point is that they are more useful than others in certain situations. That means that these Pikmin need to translate those specialties into the fighting game. Now obviously, you can't make Yellow Dig faster in the fighting game, but you can look at his electric quality. What are the qualities of Electricity? It's fast, wild, and you get stunned when it hits you. Thats why I suggested the things that I did. We need to have Olimar be able to use the right Pikmin for the right situation. The reason I wanted Red to have the akward angle knockback that hits them more downward is because of this question: What should you do if your get caught on fire? Answer: Stop Drop and Roll. Having the akward angle also gives that Pikmin a reason to be in your line up. Currently, Yellow and Red have no reason or purpose for being in my line up. Sure, I'll deal with having Red, but if I get the chance, I'm tossing him.

Having 2 Pikmin on my team where I would rather have any of the other 3 instead is a problem. Average doesn't cut it. Blue is average at everything but has a great grab. I'll take Blue over Red or Yellow anytime. That renders RY useless in my book. Giving them a something unique only gives Olimar more tools to work with. It isn't making him OP. Just more resourceful, which is Olimars motto.

 

[steelguttey]

All Pikmin can start combo's. There should be a Pikmin that excells at starting combo's. All Pikmin can edge-guard. There should be a Pikmin that excells at edge-guarding. All Pikmin can grab. There should be a Pikmin that excells at grabs. All Pikmin can deal damage. There should be a Pikmin that excells at dealing damage. All Pikmin have knockback. There should be a Pikmin that excells at knockback.

why? theres no point in having a pikmin that excels at BEING AVERAGE. in between white and purple in terms of knockback is red and yellow. in between purple and blue in terms of grab range is red and yellow. in between blue and white in terms of side-b damage is red and yellow. having all of them having a niche would support shuffling until you get the right pikmin and that isnt what we want in this game.

As it currently stands, there are 2 Pikmin that are not worth using over the other 3. Yellow and Red. Red is better than Yellow but it's worth tossing just to have a chance to get a Blue or Purple. It is widely agreed upon that Yellow needs a buff. If they buff Yellow as suggested, then Red would become the bottom of the barrel, not really haveing a use.

no. red is in the middle of everything and yellow is below average in everything. thats the point of them, they start combos and have low knockback for continuing juggles.

Here are some of the main reasons why I vehemently disagree that Red and Yellow should "be average in every case".

In the Pikmin games, each Pikmin has a specialty. You needed to use the right color for the right job. Yellow is thrown high and can dig faster, Blue can be in water, Red deals more damage, White deals way more damage, Purple breaks things. The point is that they are more useful than others in certain situations. That means that these Pikmin need to translate those specialties into the fighting game. Now obviously, you can't make Yellow Dig faster in the fighting game, but you can look at his electric quality. What are the qualities of Electricity? It's fast, wild, and you get stunned when it hits you. Thats why I suggested the things that I did. We need to have Olimar be able to use the right Pikmin for the right situation. The reason I wanted Red to have the akward angle knockback that hits them more downward is because of this question: What should you do if your get caught on fire? Answer: Stop Drop and Roll. Having the akward angle also gives that Pikmin a reason to be in your line up. Currently, Yellow and Red have no reason or purpose for being in my line up. Sure, I'll deal with having Red, but if I get the chance, I'm tossing him.

alright dude if we were translating to games then every time mario footstools the enemy they would lose a stock. whistle would be able to be directed on the ground. we would only be able to pluck new pikmin if we were near an onion and we would have to sacrifice enemies to the norse gods of pikmin to give us new pikmin to pluck. we arent playing pikmin, we are playing project m. pikmin is my favorite game franchise of all time and i main olimar because of it and i believe translating directly from games to fighting games is ridiculous. we are playing a FIGHTING game not a puzzle game, and olimar needs to FIGHT.

Having 2 Pikmin on my team where I would rather have any of the other 3 instead is a problem. Average doesn't cut it. Blue is average at everything but has a great grab. I'll take Blue over Red or Yellow anytime. That renders RY useless in my book. Giving them a something unique only gives Olimar more tools to work with. It isn't making him OP. Just more resourceful, which is Olimars motto.

im not talking about straight average. im saying slightly better than average. ill make a graph type thing for what niches pikmin should have i guess but im doin **** right now.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

why? theres no point in having a pikmin that excels at BEING AVERAGE. in between white and purple in terms of knockback is red and yellow. in between purple and blue in terms of grab range is red and yellow. in between blue and white in terms of side-b damage is red and yellow. having all of them having a niche would support shuffling until you get the right pikmin and that isnt what we want in this game.

I wouldn't use shuffling. I would use whatever move I wanted. There are times when you can get a second to rearrange your lineup, like when you knock someone off. One whistle puts Red next up ready for an edge-guard. If you get a grab with any color and Yellow is next, your likely to get an extra hit. And I agree that there's no point in having a Pikmin that excells at being average. I think they have something extra that makes them special in their own way.

I don't really understand what the problem is with making them better at one thing compared to the other Pikmin.

no. red is in the middle of everything and yellow is below average in everything. thats the point of them, they start combos and have low knockback for continuing juggles.

And they still suck at it. White is better for combo's because it has bad knockback and if it's flowered, it deals even more damage. Also, it's followed up with a Purple after that. Having Red in the Middle of everything makes him less useful compared to the others who offer something "extra". Yellow being below average makes him even less useful than Red.
And btw, everything can combo. Purple combo's. I'm just saying that Yellow should be able to offer nearly an extra hit.

alright dude if we were translating to games then every time mario footstools the enemy they would lose a stock. whistle would be able to be directed on the ground. we would only be able to pluck new pikmin if we were near an onion and we would have to sacrifice enemies to the norse gods of pikmin to give us new pikmin to pluck. we arent playing pikmin, we are playing project m. pikmin is my favorite game franchise of all time and i main olimar because of it and i believe translating directly from games to fighting games is ridiculous. we are playing a FIGHTING game not a puzzle game, and olimar needs to FIGHT.

Now in this one, I feel like you either half read it and misunderstood, or you're completly misrepresenting what I said.
I feel like you didn't read this part: "Now obviously, you can't make Yellow Dig faster in the fighting game, but you can look at his electric quality. What are the qualities of Electricity? It's fast, wild, and you get stunned when it hits you. Thats why I suggested the things that I did."
Of course you can't have a literal translation of a character in the fighting game. That's why I'm asking for more of an Inspired take on Olimar. Realizing that the Pikmin don't function the same between the two games, I look to base the effects and advantages of the Pikmin on they're abilities. The things I suggested seem very fitting to electricity and Fire.

I also thought of an analogy that describes it well. Think of each Pikmin as an individual Hand. Each finger represents things that it does. Purple, White, and Blue have all 5 fingers. Red and Yellow have 4 fingers, missing the thumb. They can still do stuff but they are just missing that last digit that would make them strong like the others.

Really though, what is the "Problem" with having each Pikmin being better at something than the others? And please don't say because they are better for combo's, because they aren't.

 

[Phan7om]

Let Red excel at Aerials
Let Yellow have much bigger hitboxes
Let Blue excel at grabs/throws
Let Purple excel at smashes
Let White excel at dealing continuous damage... aka keep white the same as it is now.

 

[steelguttey]

Let Red excel at Aerials
Let Yellow have much bigger hitboxes
Let Blue excel at grabs/throws
Let Purple excel at smashes
Let White excel at dealing continuous damage... aka keep white the same as it is now.

idk what you mean by "excel at aerials" but yea i agree with the rest.


i would argue with the whole post there but im tired as **** so ill do it tm if i rememba

 

[B.W.]

I sent a thing to the PMBR a while ago, when I felt that a totally redone Olimar was in order. I don't stand by Olimar needing to be redone anymore, but having his Pikmin be at least a little different from each other would be nice.

In a nutshell the Pikmin all gained different stuff by growing up in my list. All of them starting the same in their Leaf stage they have now but instead of the Pikmin just getting better damage they all grow in some way.

Red's damage would grow, as it does now.
Yellow's hitbox size would grow.
Blue's grab range/throw power would grow (except for D-Throw because it's so good how it is now)
White would essentially remain what it is now, having the highest possible damage output, and also being able to explode at every level.
Purple's base knockback/knockback growth would grow.

I still think if these changes were implemented, along with Pikmin being plucked in a specific order, Olimar would be much more fun to play. It would also kind of even out his damage if only Red's damage was increased and it would encourage more micro management.

I also had a suggestion recently to make the final hit of Red, Yellow and Blue's Pikmin Throw attack make the opponent flinch to make the move slightly less worthless to use for anything not White or Purple since there's very little reward for latching those colors onto an opponent as it is now, save for damage (which is nice, but still).

 

[Phan7om]

idk what you mean by "excel at aerials" but yea i agree with the rest.


i would argue with the whole post there but im tired as **** so ill do it tm if i rememba

Did i not spell it right, i dont even know... but im too lazy to look it up lmao.

What I meant by "excel at aerials" meant that Red's aerial knockback/knockback angle should be more devastating than the others, even more than Purple, which would be average knockback like all the other pikmin except white. Purple would have the best smashes while everything but white is average. Yellow would have the biggest hitboxes with everything else being average. And so on... but hey this is just one guys opinion xD

 

[steelguttey]

I sent a thing to the PMBR a while ago, when I felt that a totally redone Olimar was in order. I don't stand by Olimar needing to be redone anymore, but having his Pikmin be at least a little different from each other would be nice.

In a nutshell the Pikmin all gained different stuff by growing up in my list. All of them starting the same in their Leaf stage they have now but instead of the Pikmin just getting better damage they all grow in some way.

Red's damage would grow, as it does now.
Yellow's hitbox size would grow.
Blue's grab range/throw power would grow (except for D-Throw because it's so good how it is now)
White would essentially remain what it is now, having the highest possible damage output, and also being able to explode at every level.
Purple's base knockback/knockback growth would grow.

I still think if these changes were implemented, along with Pikmin being plucked in a specific order, Olimar would be much more fun to play. It would also kind of even out his damage if only Red's damage was increased and it would encourage more micro management.

I also had a suggestion recently to make the final hit of Red, Yellow and Blue's Pikmin Throw attack make the opponent flinch to make the move slightly less worthless to use for anything not White or Purple since there's very little reward for latching those colors onto an opponent as it is now, save for damage (which is nice, but still).

i actually really like this idea. scaling pikmin is good pikmin but it also suggest playing keepaway until you have full flower which is eh so how about we have a mechanic where the more you hit people the faster the process is?

 

[B.W.]

I had suggested that before as well.

The time thing honestly works fine too, especially since playing keepaway even now when your Pikmin are leaves really is just as viable as playing aggressive.

A lot of people think Olimar benefits from playing the keepaway/zoning game until his Pikmin are flowers, but I honestly don't believe this is the case at all. Leaf Pikmin are still very strong, and you can still rack up quite a bit of damage with them. The growth system actually adds power to Olimar though, in the sense that if your opponent doesn't want to approach you, you can just let your Pikmin grow.

It's a weird way of forcing Olimar's opponents to approach, which is kind of a good thing because Olimar is a fantastic punisher.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

Did i not spell it right, i dont even know... but im too lazy to look it up lmao.

What I meant by "excel at aerials" meant that Red's aerial knockback/knockback angle should be more devastating than the others, even more than Purple, which would be average knockback like all the other pikmin except white. Purple would have the best smashes while everything but white is average. Yellow would have the biggest hitboxes with everything else being average. And so on... but hey this is just one guys opinion xD

I could go 2 ways for Red.

1. Red has same knockback power but a more devistating angle (downward horrizontal). If it proves to be too much knockback, I'd be fine with it being a little less than Blue's. This would mostly apply to Fair and Bair attacks, and Fsmash. Dsmash already has that akward angle. His Dair could also hit them downward and in the direction Olimar is facing, making wall teching much harder.
2. Reduce Purple aerial knockback and increase Red's aerial knockback. Purple would basically be better with Smashes and the throw, but Red would be better in the air, which makes him very valuable.

Pesonally, I'd prefer option 1. I would really like it because it would also throw off their DI. Make it so Olimars randomness has it's advantages, even though it has disadvantages.

 

[Matthew]

The only changes I would suggest for Olimar is to have the hitbox of his up-smash come out a few frames earlier and to extend the hitbox for up-air so that there is a hitbox on Olimar's head, even though it would be kind of strange. I still think the red spray idea is kinda cool.

 

[B.W.]

The hitbox on his U-Smash comes out in 8 frames. That's like... Really fast.

Also his U-Air is like... His best move.

I don't think either of those attacks need a buff.

 

[Matthew]

The hitbox on his U-Smash comes out in 8 frames. That's like... Really fast.

Also his U-Air is like... His best move.

I don't think either of those attacks need a buff.

Yeah your right. I just wanted a hitbox like Yoshi's up-air, but that would be broken. I wanted to speed up the up-smash to help with juggling fox and Falco at low percents, but I suppose up-tilt would be better for that. Did you know that Olimar's up-smash can be crouch-cancelled at very low percents? I think that's pretty dumb.

 

[B.W.]

A lot of his moves can be CC'd at low percent. Luckily you have a fairly awesome grab.

Also you can start juggling spacies at around our 20%. Which isn't hard to achieve because Olimars damage output is insane.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I had an idea. What if we make yellow more like a standard projectile. Some characters can shrug of pikmin very easily. What if yellows had an electric effect and hit like pk freeze or a a falco laser (don't really care about the arc). After which they can attach like normal, forcing people to respond at that moment.

If we keep the arc the same, Olimar could follow the projectile really well. With how flexible l cancelling is and only having 4, pikmin throw feels less useful (still useful, just less). By having 2 "real" projectiles, it would definitely improve his neutral game. Whether he actually needs it is another thing entirely.

 

[robosteven]

Not to bring up Sm4sh, but the Pikmin are perfect the way they work in that game. Not in number and not in moveset, but in the fact that he no longer relies on a 30-second timer to bring his attack power to his fullest potential.

Fingers crossed for the removal of the current system.