Mission Complete!- Fox Discussion Thread

[Galaxian]

Not a Fox main myself, though I've been thinking about picking up Fox since he seems to do insanely well against some characters.

What are Fox's bad MUs? While I do play characters that go neutral or not too bad against him (Pac-Man, Ness, maybe Mario specifically) a lot of good Fox players pretty much everyone can give me trouble once they start reading what I do and react accordingly. I swear to god you ****ers are like robots when you react to ****, that ****'s almost perfect.

Should I just give in and play Fox more so I can perfect him? How should I deal with Fox? What are his best customs, by the way?

 

[EndlessRain]

Fox's worst MUs is Yoshi. There are others, but don't use Fox against Yoshi. You can't combo him, he will nair you if you don't shield instantly after every attack you land (and swallow you if you do), his lingering hitboxes make getting in against him a pain to begin with, his kill moves are pretty strong and Fox is very light... All you have on him is low-ish percent kills with usmash.
Sonic is quite bad too imo, since he can juggle Fox like crazy, but it's hardly unwinnable. As long as you tech properly, DI well and plan your airdodges, you won't give him too many chances to get in.
RosaLuma is a bit of a toss up: You can't really do anything to her if she has Luma out, but she's so light that 13 seconds is often all you need. I wouldn't recommend staying Fox, but again, it's hardly unwinnable.
Fox has one of the best sets of custom specials in the game. He has 2-3 viable specials for each slot. All the lasers are good (the custom ones moreso than the default, but default has its uses too). Side1 and side3 are both pretty great, with side2 giving you more verticality and a spike in exchange for utility in spacing and combo potential. Down2 is great against characters with no projectiles, as its only downside becomes a moot point and the windox lets you get out of combos as well as edgeguard. If they have projectiles, you just go back to default. His up2 is solid, very fast so it lets you recover more easily and you shouldn't be attacking with upB anyway. Up3, however, is Fox's crowning glory. It kills off the top at 90-100%-ish, and it's nigh-impossible to escape if you're hit by the charge hitbox.
I say try Fox out. He's not as good as Sheik or Diddy, he's harder to use than both and the Yoshi MU really is that bad, but he's certainly very, very strong if you put the work in.
Don't whiff smashes though. Fox's moves have endlag in this game o_O

 

[Skarfelt]

I used to think Fox lost to Yoshi but I actually think we win that matchup nowadays. We're faster, he has no KO setups to punish us being light, you just have to be really patient because of huge mobility and Nair but I'll talk about this more next time it comes up in the matchup thread. I wish the game of me against Pidg3Y was streamed at Hypespotting so I could refer to it but, alas, Tekken felt the need to do Best of 5s for all of Top 16.

To be perfectly honest, If feel like Fox has even to good matchups with damn near every character in the game. The only matchup that's truly frustrating is Rosalina. All of his other worse matchups like Sheik, Diddy and arguably Luigi are salvageable with work and adaptation. Maybe I'm not adapting to Rosaluma enough though, who knows.

 

[EndlessRain]

I guess I don't really try to adapt as much since as I am now, I can play five or six different characters at about the same level. So it's easier for me to just switch if I'm having a lot of trouble. I stand by Yoshi being hard because you need to play Fox so differently to have a shot. And if you whiff a laggy move, you die. It's true for most MUs, but especially Yoshi because our kill setups don't work on him and so you have to use kill moves raw.
I actually stay Fox against most Rosa players. I probably just haven't fought a good one yet, but I've never felt the need to. I can see why it's bad on paper though, and I watch Dabuz's games often enough to have an idea lol.

 

[Skarfelt]

Yeah, I can see that. I mean, I could learn Fox vs Rosalina or I could just... play Sheik.

I don't think having to adapt your playstyle makes the matchup necessarily harder. Harder to learn, sure, I'll give you that, but you should adapt at least a little bit for each matchup anyway. It's just less YOLO, more patience vs Yoshi.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm going to assume you all knew about this, right?

#justfoxthings
#yiffinhell

 

[Pudgetalks]

What's better, Fox's boost grab or Roll cancel grab?

 

[Skarfelt]

So guys, how does 1.0.6 affect Fox? We received basically no changes outside of jab wobbling being escapable which I'm totally fine with. Other changes can affect us in terms of matchups a lot, though. I feel like Fox has the potential to be one of the best characters in the whole game in this patch if we can work out the Rosalina matchup better.

• Rosalina seems like she'll be really good now. She was only really kept in check by characters like Diddy and Sheik who are still good but won't be anywhere near as prevalent.
• Diddy isn't able to abuse our horrible weight for super early KOs any more so we should win this fine.
• Sheik will still be good but we can frustrate her easily as there's no easy kill option for her any more outside of rage Fair at ridiculous percentages. This matchup might become slightly more even? It's hard to say.
• Sonic can't just kill us by looking at us funny, praise the lord.

Haven't played on the patch enough to say much more about it but I'm excited for Fox's potential in this patch. I will have to actually learn the Rosa matchup now, though, so that's kinda sad... =P

 

[DavemanCozy]

I'm going to assume you all knew about this, right?

Ah yes, the Barrel Roll. I have used it to catch greedy edgeguarders before as well. Mario getting KO'd at 85%:
https://youtu.be/MB2ilPcod8c?t=5m9s

Changes can affect us in terms of matchups a lot, though. I feel like Fox has the potential to be one of the best characters in the whole game in this patch if we can work out the Rosalina matchup better.

• Rosalina seems like she'll be really good now. She was only really kept in check by characters like Diddy and Sheik who are still good but won't be anywhere near as prevalent.
• Diddy isn't able to abuse our horrible weight for super early KOs any more so we should win this fine.
• Sheik will still be good but we can frustrate her easily as there's no easy kill option for her any more outside of rage Fair at ridiculous percentages. This matchup might become slightly more even? It's hard to say.
• Sonic can't just kill us by looking at us funny, praise the lord.

Haven't played on the patch enough to say much more about it but I'm excited for Fox's potential in this patch. I will have to actually learn the Rosa matchup now, though, so that's kinda sad... =P

Don't forget:
- Damn this matchup was argued about so much in the discussion. Whether it's bad for Fox or not, expect Yoshi to rise more: Sheik got toned down further (she still gives Yoshi trouble, imo) and Diddy's reward is not dumb anymore. The two MUs that held him back are a bit easier now.

Agree:
- Another character I expect to see more of with the nerf of Diddy and Sheik. Luma got herself nerfed again though: she has a bit lower HP now.

I wouldn't write them off high tier:
- No more early KOs off the top. The nerf to F-air also means we're not getting sent offstage all the time either. He still has bananas and monkey flips.
- No more B-throw KOing so damn early. Good.

She's still so good:
- This is what built-in L-cancelling looks like.

I also wouldn't worry about tearing holes in the meta either, he's bigger and lighter than , and also really slow.

Wish I was kidding about that. He's the 2nd lightest in the game now, only a tad heavier than . Thx Sakurai.

 

[Skarfelt]

Yeah, I really enjoy playing Mewtwo but he's so damned light. He does hit like a truck which is nice but the description of "glass cannon" has never been truer.


I seem to recall waving my arms and shouting about how impossible Yoshi is for Fox but I really think it's in our favour now. We're just so much faster and he has no KO setups to abuse how light we are but that's a discussion for another day and another thread.

I don't think Diddy is anything worse than even now for us. He'll still be top 10 but I wouldn't be too concerned with him. Sheik, though, is a very valid point because she still punishes us unfairly hard off grabs and pretty much any hit confirm.

 

[SuperTorn]

Friendly reminder that Fox's Smash 4 voice is his N64 voice

 

[DavemanCozy]

Not a Fox main myself, though I've been thinking about picking up Fox since he seems to do insanely well against some characters.

What are Fox's bad MUs? While I do play characters that go neutral or not too bad against him (Pac-Man, Ness, maybe Mario specifically) a lot of good Fox players pretty much everyone can give me trouble once they start reading what I do and react accordingly. I swear to god you ****ers are like robots when you react to ****, that ****'s almost perfect.

The key to fighting Fox is to not over-commit with a move. If you do, you're leaving yourself open for Fox to punish you. The same applies to fighting Sonic and fighting Falcon: don't throw out attacks that leave you open for too long.

Fox's neutral game is fast and let's him run in and quickly punish, but once you get a hit confirm on him you are quite capable of pushing him offstage or possibly end his stock. It's the drawback we get of playing such a fast character.

Based on what I think and other Fox mains say, Fox's worst MUs:
, , , come to mind, these are either close to even or bad for Fox.
before the patch, I don't think he's bad anymore though.

Should I just give in and play Fox more so I can perfect him? How should I deal with Fox? What are his best customs, by the way?

Fox's customs depend on the matchups.

Laser1 does its intended job well enough of forcing approaches and tacking damage. Good vs Villager, Mario, etc. characters with reflectors or absorb moves.
Laser2 is the Falco/N64 blaster, and is good for better ranged pressure against characters who can't do much about them.
Laser3 fires a powerful charged shot that travels at a respectable speed and decent distance. It's not as effective vs characters with reflectors, however.

The choice between SideB is Fox Illusion or Wolf Flash. Fox Illusion is the straight default one while Wolf Flash is literally the same as Brawl: both have uses, imo both are preference based. Illusion can combo into Up-airs, B-airs, and other aerials, while Wolf Flash has the meteor at the end that gives Fox a way to KO offstage from the bottom blastzone.

UpBs is between Flying Fox (2) or Twisting Fox (3, or Barrel Roll). You should use UpB2 if you want to make it back onstage as fast as possible, or the Twisting Fox for some nasty KOs at low percents. You can use its multiple hitboxes on start-up to trap opponents as well.

DownB is Big Reflector (2) or regular shine (1). Big Reflector has a windbox which makes pseudo shine gimping possible, while normal reflector is great against projectiles.

 

[Ffamran]

Question about recovering: are Fox players using Fox Illusion too liberally and too recklessly? Fox Illusion is a good recovery, but it's linear and predictable if used too much. Fire Fox covers a lot of distance and with edge-hogging gone, should Fox players recover at different angles more instead of going to easy route of lining up with the ledge and using Fox Illusion?

 

[M@v]

Its all about the mixups. If you are up against a good player, you are going to get punished for using either side b or up b too much, or using them in a predictable pattern. I think Fox's recovery is his biggest weakness, not in the distance it covers, but how easy it is to catch onto habits/punish him for it.

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah, it's just that I see a lot of Fox, Falco, and other players go for the easy recoveries that gets punished a lot. Kato made use of Falco's jump, Falco Phantasm, and Distant Fire Bird to go under the stage while M2K pulled off the under the stage recovery with Diddy at Apex. It's just that TKBreezy's mention of Falco players going for Falco Phantasm too much, his note of people not using the "Melee angle recovery", and me getting punished a lot for opting for Falco Phantasm - I'll john by saying the Circle Pad is not friendly - for almost all of my recoveries. Falco Phantasm not having a front hitbox/hitbox on Falco makes it easy to punish as anything can slap Falco back while Fox can clank with Fox Illusion or just punish the punisher. Heck, I even noticed people in other character boards mentioning that Falco players will 90% of the time recover with Falco Phantasm.

Then there's watching Chillin mixup Wolf's recovery in PM a lot. Then again, Wolf's Fire Wolf isn't as "limited" as Fire Fox or Fire Bird because of its shorter charge time.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Are Fire Fox/Bird angles as abundant as they were in Melee or are there only a handful of specific angles? I agree that Fox players tend to side B too much to recover. I think the main reason is that we're not being punished enough for using it. If I Fox Illusion every time to the stage and get away with it then I'll be more likely to continue doing it.

I agree we're just going for the easy recovery. I think Smash 4's mechanics have made us a bit lazy. Admittedly, I don't practice my Fire Fox angles so sometimes I lose a stock due to going straight up or straight left/right as I attempt to recover. Because of this I rely on side B. Also, Wolf Flash is harder to edgeguard IMO. That's what I use.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Speaking of getting destroyed for Side-Bing:

A perfect example of how to not sideB by yours truly. Learn from my mistake: use Up-B as well, don't use Side-B all the time.

 

[Timbers]

Patch helped out Fox a lot lol. Diddy lost a lot, to the point where I'd say this has swung (gradually) into Fox's favor. Sheik remains rather unchanged (for purposes of this MU only) and is still a massive threat against Fox's recovery options, but losing bair is definitely a benefit for Fox and really allows him to play around with rage. If Sonic was an even MU pre-patch, it's likely in Fox's favor now that Sonic has lost such a potent killthrow, and allows Fox to easily pressure on edge.

There are a lot of Luigi's and Falcon's on the rise, so I wonder how that will shake up the Top 5/10 (e.g. Luigi being toted as probably Top 3 may bring in a lot of Villager/Mega Man rep). Fox might have Top 5 potential post-patch, but Pikachu is still up in the air as nobody plays him. Supposedly fantastic character, but no representation (similar to Fox). Haven't had a chance to play much lately so more speculation/spectating than anything else. Cool patch though. (Mewtwo is a joke)

 

[VeteranUnderdog]

@ STiCKYBULL3TZ i do get punished quite often when using side b to recover, if you miss the ledge most people punish hard. For snapping to the ledge however, it is basically unrivaled due to its overwhelming speed. Firefox is slow but travels a long distance , but fast characters punish you super easy w/ back air stage spikes.

 

[Foster J.]

It's important to space the Fox Illusion, so that you 1. Land with it to reduce lag and 2. take notice where the opponent stands, so you don't Side B in front of him

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Can Fox DI out of moves that chain together (mainly Little mac's dtilit, pikachu's up tilit, and Kirby's up tilt)? I was able to do 30+% combos on fox in training mode with all of these moves.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

I have a lot of trouble fighting ZSS with Fox. It seems like I'm getting punished for everything but not getting any punishments myself. Anybody have any advice for this match-up?

Also, sometime in the unspecified future, I'm gonna fight a Greninja player who's one of the best in his state. I don't usually fight Greninjas so advice for that matchup would also be appreciated.

 

[Still~Wolf]

I have a lot of trouble fighting ZSS with Fox. It seems like I'm getting punished for everything but not getting any punishments myself. Anybody have any advice for this match-up?

Also, sometime in the unspecified future, I'm gonna fight a Greninja player who's one of the best in his state. I don't usually fight Greninjas so advice for that matchup would also be appreciated.

Any idea how he plays?

 

[BigLord]

Hey Foxes, I love playing custom Fox (specifically, 3322) but I have a question about Big Reflector.

Does anyone have any data (visual data please?) about the size of the move's windbox? I love to use it but I'm pretty sure I'm not using it to its full potential. Is the windbox RIGHT in front of Fox? Or is there some leeway?

 

[Ffamran]

I know Snow uses pivot Ftilt's body hit, but has anyone been using that more in their game plan? Someone made a thread about bread and butter combos and the video for Fox looks sick: https://youtu.be/J4UD-k6g7DQ.

 

[EndlessRain]

I use it occasionally at high percents to lead into kill aerials. I kinda suck at actual inputs though so my early game is pretty boring and slow without much in the way of combos (2 hits is long enough for me, I'll just try make reads or something for the rest). Well, I've been working on that.

 

[Foster J.]

It's not safe on shield, but pretty decent at catching landings, I use it occasionally

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Do you guys prefer c-stick for smash or tilts? If you use tilt-stick, how do you get around the loss of basic running usmash?

 

[EndlessRain]

Running usmash is actually easy enough to do with only one stick. I can and have done it on 3DS. C-Stick is set to smash for me because it makes stuff like rising dair, falling uair, RAR anything etc. much easier and with no momentum lost to other directions.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Running usmash is actually easy enough to do with only one stick. I can and have done it on 3DS. C-Stick is set to smash for me because it makes stuff like rising dair, falling uair, RAR anything etc. much easier and with no momentum lost to other directions.

So in this case, its better to have c-stick set to smash to counteract some momentum effects?

 

[Ffamran]

So in this case, its better to have c-stick set to smash to counteract some momentum effects?

Or it's up to your choice and feel for the controller. Some people stick with default for whatever game while some tweak things and others just love to use their own control layout when possible. In some cases, yes, there are control layouts that are just better like Tap Jump Off in Smash which can prevent mis-inputs or having one of the trigger or bumpers for Shoot in Devil May Cry, especially if you're playing as Nero in DMC4 or Dante in DmC because their charged shots are that good and really beneficial to their game plan, perhaps Vergil too, especially from what DMC4: SE has shown us. It's up to you, man. Stick with whatever works for you, but don't go out of your way to be that guy who uses the GCN's triggers to attack because he wants to be cool and unique. If it does work, then more power to you, but if it doesn't, then maybe look into changing the control layout or how you hold the controller.

 

[Skarfelt]

After yet another of event of pacing not first, I'd like to ask for help on my Fox play. I definitely think a large part of why I'm losing is due to my mental game - my mind wanders during games all the time and I find it very hard to keep focused - but I definitely have bad habits and fall for silly things a lot. Critique me pls so I can stop finishing not first ;_;

Winners Finals vs EOE's Peach

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Can Fox DI out of moves that chain together (mainly Little mac's dtilit, pikachu's up tilit, and Kirby's up tilt)? I was able to do 30+% combos on fox in training mode with all of these moves.

I'm almost sure it's not possible, he's one of the characters most prone to those and can take some seriouse damage, especially Kirby who can just continue it with Uairs, especially if we catch you off your jump.

 

[Foster J.]

Fox is the easiest character to combo in the sense he's the fastest faller.

@ Skarfelt Freaking EoE man, those floaty instant Nairs. And well, in general Peach's insane Fair together with the Dthrow Uair or even Bair, and I swear I've seen Bthrow to Bair / Fair... Peach is quite proficient at dealing with Fox (Turnips for days just like melee)

 

[EndlessRain]

@ Skarfelt Can't watch the vid right now but one bad habit you seem to have is stopping dead and Leffen Lasering (just... standing still and shooting). You even did it at Hypespotting while your opponent was on a platform. I'm not really qualified to give you advice on Fox, but don't do that.

 

[Skarfelt]

EOE is definitely sick as hell at this game and I didn't respect him or the matchup anywhere near enough - I did a lot of things that don't work on Peach and I wasn't familiar with her endlag. I also DI'd the Down Throw really poorly. EOE says that the matchup is hard for Peach and I'd definitely believe it, I just need to do my homework on that.

Re: Leffen lasers, I think I've stopped doing that as much but it's definitely still a point. I need to get into the habit of just firing one or two and no more.

Appreciate the hep, guys!

 

[EndlessRain]

Just watched the match. Something I noticed is that you bair a lot when he's above you. Might just be me, but I find uair more effective in such situations. I think this is the focus problem: You're not focused on adjusting to Peach's sloooow fall speed and you're expecting him to fall behind you?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

EOE is definitely sick as hell at this game and I didn't respect him or the matchup anywhere near enough - I did a lot of things that don't work on Peach and I wasn't familiar with her endlag. I also DI'd the Down Throw really poorly. EOE says that the matchup is hard for Peach and I'd definitely believe it, I just need to do my homework on that.

Re: Leffen lasers, I think I've stopped doing that as much but it's definitely still a point. I need to get into the habit of just firing one or two and no more.

Appreciate the hep, guys!

I doubt that.... I mean yes, she can't handel rush downs all to well, but when she gets a hit and starts her combos.....yea that's where the tide turns, but I doubt it's that hard for peach, but it does SERIOUSLY suck how a lot of characters(literally ever character I main) are somewhat bad at rush down characters.
But I would imagine this takes patience(boy is that anything new...) for both characters either way, I mean, they have advantages the others don't have such as Peachs far superior edge guard(is it ok to say air game as well) while Foxs far more superior speed in his attacks and mobility(um.....on ground at least so yea overall a better ground game).

I can't watch the video for some reason, but was he using customs?
If so what would be best against fox and what did he use?
I would imagine, normal parosol, .............I would assume light veggie? Maybe sleepy toad because fox will always be in your face likely, so they may get careless and you could get it off. I have no idea on the bomber I really don't even know.........
Ugh school is such a pain gtg

 

[Skarfelt]

@ EndlessRain I've been trying to get more SHFF Bairs into my play as it's honestly the best ledgeguarding and pressure tool in our arsenal but I don't think I SH Uaired a single time in the whole set. This is a really valid point and definitely something to abuse but man, Peach's Dair is so strong. I wanna lab it and see if we out range/out prioritise it.

No customs.

Peach can edgeguard Fox really, really well. Just has to sit and float cancel and our options back on stage are really not great.

Re: matchup, Fox getting combo'd by everyone in the game isn't really anything new - he can generally control the game but when he goes into the disadvantage state, it becomes very hard to get out of that state. Peach's combos at low percentage are sick as hell though and she can break combos a little bit more than usual characters. If it is in our favour, it's 55:45.

 

[EndlessRain]

Okay so uair is disjointed. No fear guys. The spacing is tricky though.